Buying your first boat

[Ubergeekian]

You know the post: "We have done several charters in the Med and are thinking of a 35 - 40 footer with suger scoop stern and shower, which are the best makes?"
The cost of inexpensive boat buying has gone down and down over the last 20 years. There are loads of sub 22ft boats around that will get you on the water next season for under £1000 but few people want them.
My advice is always the same, get down to your local yard and club, ask around. Buy a boat for a sum that you can write down to zero over a couple of seasons and get on the water. After that you will know if sailing is for you - and will have saved a bundle in the process.

Well said, that many. Unfortunately, the rather naive view you describe seems to be the way YM in particular has gone - they don't seem to see anything under about 37' and brand new as worth bothering about any more.

Here is an iteresting challenge for your magazine Snooks. Give me the cost of a swinging mooring in the Solent; maybe that £1000. I will buy and fit out a boat this winter, within that budget, and publish my sailing exploits next Autumn. I bet I would get further than many plush dreamboats.

[/quote]

Excellent idea. Perhaps several could take them up on it in a wee competition ...

 

[David_Jersey]

I thought a good post / article by OP - even if a few things I would argue about

To be honest I think a complete newbie could (very easily £££ & trouble wise!) do a lot worse than buy a new (or 2/3 year old) Benjenbav of around 30 / 35 foot...........always a resale market to upgrade from or simply exit the hobby in a couple of years time - won't make any money but the £££ downsides would be as predictable & manageable as these things can ever be when it comes to boats.

Albeit I would suggest a 70's 20 odd footer off E-bay / corner of boatyard as a perfect learner vessel for a year or 2.........or a lifetime - and cost effective too if operated on a basic boat basis (as long as you accept it for what it is and don't spend big £££'s on upgrading)..........but this approach will never be for everyone due to family / time / skills / enjoyment of fiddling around onboard requirements.

IMO the absolute worst boat for a newbie to get would be an older boat that "just" requires some refurb especially if the reason for buying is that doing so allows a bigger boat than could otherwise be afforded. No matter that she may be a "classic"........easy to get sucked into a money pit, Bad enuf if you've got the money, if not it's the stuff that nightmares are made of

 

[AntarcticPilot]

As one of those who's very recently posted a "what to buy" type question, I appreciate Quandary's points. However, there are alternative views. For myself, I have bought, gutted and renovated several houses over the years and every time I:
(a) had a lot of fun (well I tell myself this afterwards) and learned a lot.
(b) got exactly what I wanted from the finished project in terms of craftsmanship and features to meet my specific desires.
(c) knew that the shiny paint didn't cover the serious defects bodged by others.
(d) sold them on at a very reasonable profit to others who also wanted a high standard.

Also, some of us spend a considerable amount of time reading and researching to try and draw up a shortlist of makes/models of boats/houses/cars/aeroplanes to buy for renovation along with some of the new (to us) materials, equipment, technologies available and/or necessary. So it also makes sense to ask others that have 'been there, done that'.

For myself, I've spent time on others' boats but they really don't want me to start taking things to pieces to see how they work, so if I want to satisfy my curiously I have little option than to buy something that I can then work on myself. Hopefully, I'll come out the other side (1) knowing an awful lot more about what makes a boat work (2) enjoyed doing it (3) spent less than many do down the pub every night (5 pints x 356 = damn near £5,500) and recovered the outlay when selling on, rather than having pissed it against a wall....

...and (almost forgot) got some sailing in too. In fact, if I'm honest with myself, it's probably the learning aspects along with the desire to buy and renovate/modify and test that's more important than the actual 'now lets go sailing' aspects, but you need some sort of justification to yourself for embarking on a new venture, so an end goal such as a transatlantic or circumnavigation, provides the excuse.

One fundamental difference between a boat and a house, though is that there is a very clear ceiling on the price of a particular model of yacht, above which you'll get no buyers, no matter if it's got gold-plated sea-cocks. With a house, there's a very definite LOWER limit for the price, set by the value of the land, but modifications and improvements (as long as sanctioned by planning consent!) can increase the value over a much wider range. You also have a lot more freedom on a house; much of a boat's interior is load-bearing (bulkheads, many longitudinal elements) so you can't modify as freely as you can in a house - there is no maritime equivalent of the RSJ! And a boat which is modified very far from the original design may become uninsurable.

The question of whether boats depreciate or not is an interesting one! And the answer seems to be, it depends on the boat and on how you're counting. A well known type like my own Moody is probably still worth about the same number of pounds as she was bought for new. And barring serious structural problems, an shabby example probably won't be a lot less than a really good example, because the type is well known, has a good reputation for build quality, and most things that are wrong are likely to be cosmetic. But a less well known type will probably be worth less, simply because it is less well known! And there is also the question of why it is less well known... And, of course, the pound in my pocket today is worth a lot less than the 1989 pounds the original owner paid.

 

[Tranona]

Based on my own experience you can adjust your expenditure (within limits) to suit your resources. I have run boats and cars on a shoe string - you just have to accept that you don't have enough money to do all you want so limit what you do to keep within your budget. I have also bought and run new both cars and boats, and much prefer the latter! - but only because I can afford it.

The problem with old boats as many have pointed out - if they are tired there is a limit to how much you can do within a tight budget. This is sort of OK if your ambitions are modest and you just want to potter. But if you have ambitions for serious long term off shore cruising then you just have to have the resources.

Also the sheer pressure of dealing with all the potential problems of an old boat - just in terms of the basics is very challenging. That is why yards and back gardens are full of half finished projercts that will never recoup the money and effort spent on them - even if they get finished.

Anyone embarking on an ambitious project on a shoestring has to recognise the chances of it being successful are low.

 

[mcframe]

We are all optimists

I'm sure there's a cartoon in there:

Kid in Oppie being overtaken by BigCruiserRacer:
<kid> "Cor! I wish I had nice boat like that! - I could bring my friends and we could sleep on it - I bet it's even got a toilet and a cooker!"

<BigCruiserRacer>"Cor! I wish I had nice boat like that! - I could sail it myself and wouldn't have to spend 5K on kevlar sails and more on unreliable electronics - I bet I could take it home on the roof of the car and avoid paying 10K p/a to the marina!"

Yachting isn't a sport only for the rich - you only need one formerly-rich person per boat....

I can't see myself ever owning a boat that I couldn't antifoul in one day - on my own, and without using a ladder ;-)

 

[snooks]

Well said, that many. Unfortunately, the rather naive view you describe seems to be the way YM in particular has gone - they don't seem to see anything under about 37' and brand new as worth bothering about any more.

I've PM'd doug with my thoughts that it would make a better series for PBO.

It's is far more of what PBO are about, and we wouldn't like to be accused of treading on PBOs toes with regard to editorial content, would we?

Yes, it's correct that years ago that would have been within the remit of YM, however PBO now cover practical projects.

As to:

they don't seem to see anything under about 37' and brand new as worth bothering about any more.

What utter tosh!

If you're going to have a dig at the magazine, at least try to make sure your facts are correct.

Lets look back over the past few issues I have in the house shall we?

SEP 09 Fan Class (32ft) Trapper 500
OCT 09 J97 (31.6ft) and Halmatic 30
NOV 09 IP Estero 38.6ft IP and Sadler 32
DEC 09 Elan 310 and Ecume de Mar

So 8 boat tested in the last five issues and only 1 is over 37ft
4 are new 4 second hand

Lets look to the next issue as well:

JAN 10 Acrona 340 and Feeling that's around 30ft

No boat above 37' tested there either....

It's a shame that facts don't back up your argument your argument

 

[Skylark]

The message is clear. Anyone embarking upon their first purchase should be made to read this forum for three months before the cheque book gets handed back. The combined wisdom is second to none.

However, we are all individuals and we make our own judgment as we see fit to best suit our circumstances. Most of us have made mistakes along the way but I'm sure that we have learned from such experience.

As individuals, we can "think out of the box, too". I made my transition from dinghies to trailer sailers, same as many. After more than 12 month searching, I bought my first keel boat in Sweden. High quality, lots of them, lower price, good fx (at the time). Bringing her back from the Baltic, through the Kiel Canal and across the north sea was unparalled experience. Best bit was that I sold her 4 years later for cost +65%. You don't always have to lose money!

 

[sighmoon]

Re Doug's DIY project.

If you could plonk the project boat right outside your house and foresake the telly for a year, surely a win-win situation..

Here's a thought- if you were to buy a boat that has been flooded and all electronics now u/s, yet you are prepared to never spend £000s to replace 'em, that is a huge saving right there.
Live with a few scratches to the pristine topsides? Another few K.
Rip out the salt ruined linings? More £000s
And the weird one. Forget that blown diesel engine, hang a 10hp outboard on the back for harbour work and, Tadaah !
All in all one very cheap and reliable fixer upper fixed up and sailing for little effort more than a decent surveym some removal tools and a shiny new outboard.

You write it and I will read it!

Agreed. Buying a sound, but scruffy, fixer upper, with only the essentials of gear is the way to go sailing cheap. And when the boat costs you only a couple of hundred quid, there's no anxiety about your pride and joy being damaged in your ownership - the scratches on the topsides, and chunks of missing rubbing strake were already factored into the price when you bought it.

 

[Ubergeekian]

If you're going to have a dig at the magazine, at least try to make sure your facts are correct.

OK, I'll happily amend my claim to one that YM doesn't think anything under 32' is worth bothering about.

You yourself, might I point out, in another thread listed a pressurised hot water system as one of the basics when fitting out a boat.

 

[snooks]

OK, I'll happily amend my claim to one that YM doesn't think anything under 32' is worth bothering about.

J97 31.6ft, Sadler 32 31.6ft, Elan 310 31ft Halmatic 30, ecmue de mer? Care to amend again?

Ym's cut off is around 30ft so we don't cross over with PBO too much, the fact PBO are testing bigger boats is an indication of the market.

You yourself, might I point out, in another thread listed a pressurised hot water system as one of the basics when fitting out a boat.

I think if you re read that thread the OP wanted a HOT SHOWER or to quote the thread

"• I want to build-in comfort for me (+ occasional girlfriend) so room for decent stove, fridge, heater, hot shower, storage etc and I'm willing to sacrifice berths to get it."

I didn't say it was one of the basics, I was responding to the OP's request.

Again, the facts don't seem to back up your argument.

You have no idea what I consider to be the basics when fitting out a boat, so please to don't assume you do

Many thanks

 

[Ubergeekian]

J97 31.6ft, Sadler 32 31.6ft, Elan 310 31ft Halmatic 30, ecmue de mer? Care to amend again?

...much under 32 feet ..."?

Ym's cut off is around 30ft so we don't cross over with PBO too much, the fact PBO are testing bigger boats is an indication of the market.

I'd never really thought of the distinction being in length: I always thought that PBO was about working on boats and YM was about cruising in them, so many people - including myself - would find plenty of interest in both and therefore buy both. Doesn't segmenting by size of boat run the risk of reducing that dual appeal, and hunkering each magazine down into a smaller niche market?

If that is the way the market is going, though, would it not perhaps make more sense just to merge the two magazines? The current slenderness of both - and particularly YM - coupled with the overlap of boats and gear tests doesn't suggest a bright future for them both.

I didn't say it was one of the basics, I was responding to the OP's request.

Whoops - you are quite right, of course. My apologies for the misrepresentation

On a brighter note, I have just received in the post the essential item I needed for fitting out my new boat ... a deck plate for a Walker's Knotmaster trailing log.

 

[snooks]

Whoops - you are quite right, of course. My apologies for the misrepresentation

On a brighter note, I have just received in the post the essential item I needed for fitting out my new boat ... a deck plate for a Walker's Knotmaster trailing log.

Apology accepted

We just used to tie our walker log onto the pushpit, deck plates were a bit fancy!!!

 

[Ubergeekian]

We just used to tie our walker log onto the pushpit, deck plates were a bit fancy!!!

The Jouster has a tie-on one, but the new boat is double ended, and since I'll be towing a dinghy astern I think I need the extra offset of the mounting arm version. Luckily I have a spare log already - bought on eBay as a source of spinners.

 

[kdband]

Sorry if I'm a little late in spotting this thread, but I also am one who has recently posted asking for advise on buying a first boat. No doubt I am one of many who has prompted you to offer your own advise.
All very interesting, and rest assured I will consider everything you and others have said before I part with any money.

Of all the points you raise, the following is the one that interests me the most :

5 It is so easy to get seatime that anyone who embarks on ownership without first doing lots of sailing with a variety of crews is daft. If you sail locally you will soon learn which boats are desirable and suit the locality. Finding somewhere to keep a boat can be more difficult than finding the boat, but the guys you sail with will be able to advise, try to sail on different boats with different crews if possible.

I for one would appreciate advise on the various ways to get seatime without ownership. I saw owning a modestly priced boat, kept locally, as the best way of achieving this within the constraints I have on my time and money.

I was introduced to yachting many years ago through a friend of a friend who needed crew for a weeks cruising around the inner hebrides. I loved every minute of that holiday, and crewed for him again on a holiday two years later.

It was always my intention to keep up with my new found hobby, but real life got in the way and I had neither the time nor the money to continue sailing while I was raising a family.

Consequently, now that I'm in a better position to take it up again, I do not know anybody who sails. I have done some sail training (comp crew & day skipper), I am also hoping to do a week long charter in greece/turkey next year, but the costs mean we are unlikely to be able to do this every year and even if we could afford it, I still feel I want to get more practical experience anyway.

The other big factor for me is that although my wife has been sailing, she is not as keen as I am. She is happy for me to sail, and will come with me sometimes, but she has no desire to be a 'sailing widow' while I go away every weekend and to be honest I don't want to leave her feeling that way anyway. This is perhaps a good argument for not owning my own boat, but on the other hand it would mean that I can be in complete control of when I do go sailing. I'm worried that by offering myself as crew on someone else's boat (not that I actually know anyone at the moment), that I may end up letting them down at the last minute and thereby earn myself a reputation for being unreliable.

Maybe my fears are unfounded based upon my obvious lack of knowledge and doubtless there are options that I have not considered, so please continue to offer your much needed advise.

 

[Tranona]

I agree with your approach. Like many I got the bug crewing - first on a short trip from Antigua and then more realistically crewing on a couple of longish cruises on the East Coast.

Not a great lover of crewing as I want to be in charge so took the plunge and bought a 19 footer. Helps that I live in Poole and the harbour is 10 minutes drive from home. Challenge is keeping family on board and you go through different phases. But you might end up lucky like me still being married but owning a classic here for my own indulgence and a Bavaria in Greece where my wife and I usually get more sailing in a couple of weeks than we would ever get together in a year from Poole. We bought that after a couple of very successful charter holidays.

So there is nothing overly ambitious about your plans. Get a modest boat that does not need a lot of work and get out sailing. Family are much more likely to go along with that than watching you spend all your spare time fixing up a bargain boat from which they get no pleasure.

 

[Quandary]

Crewing opportunities

When I started it was with a dinghy, but then an aquantainance who later became a friend took me to see his Achilles 24 then took me out for a sail. The boat was at a sailing club and when we went in for a natter afterwards a number of other boat owners chatted to me and offered to let me go out with them. I have always belonged to at least one sailing club though now my home club is a long way away in Carrickfergus but I am a life member.
In any club I have visited I have been welcomed, In Carrick the committee regarded it as part of their responsibility to welcome visitors, sign them in and introduce them to people who would be interesting, for a beginner this usually meant a couple of skippers who were most unlikely to fail to offer a sail. If you turned up with your wife you would both expect to be treated in this way, you each might be invited on different boats but that is all the better as it is difficult to accomodate more than one learner at a time and you will get better experience this way.
I know things may be a bit more formal in England but I remember visiting Royal Burnham once and being made most welcome.
I have never met a boat owner, except perhaps the dedicated single hander who is not delighted to give a beginner a sail, if you identify the sailing area closest to you I would expect someone on here to respond. This thread is now quite old so I will start another one with that suggestion.

 

[gregmlucas]

Crewing doesn't suit everyone

...I'm worried that by offering myself as crew on someone else's boat (not that I actually know anyone at the moment), that I may end up letting them down at the last minute and thereby earn myself a reputation for being unreliable.

I (we) have just recently bought my first boat and although I have crewed on and off over the last five years, I've always struggled to fit this in around other plans.

Most of the skippers I have sailed with at all regularly ring or email on Thursday evening or Friday with an invite to go sailing that Saturday. Unfortunately, by that stage of the week SWMBO and I probably already have plans and the only thing guaranteed to annoy her more than going sailing too often is changing our plans at the last minute so I can go sailing. I appreciate that sailing is subject to weather and that the skippers have every right to plan their sailing at the last moment if they wish. And I am not suggesting for one moment that I did not appreciate the invites, I did and always accepted the invite whenever possible. I would personally much rather know a week or two in advance then risk having the trip cancelled at the last minute due to weather.

In fairness, I think most of the "short notice" skippers recognised that people couldn't all drop everything at short notice and didn't think any worse of those declining the invites. I think most would tend to invite more crew than they needed on the basis that not everyone would accept. I think provided, that when you do accept an invite that you actually turn up on time, you will not be accused of unreliablity.

Actually, thinking about it, I came across one skipper who used to plan almost an entire season in advance - he was also one of the least-safe skippers (IMHO) that I ever sailed with (once) but that's another story.

The problems finding suitable crew slots was one of the reasons I justified to SWMBO for buying our own boat. And of course, now as a new skipper, I will find out just how easy it is to plan several weeks in advance!

 

[alahol2]

I would very definitely second the advice to go and look into your sailing clubs. When we bought our first boat (a Vivacity 20 very many years ago) we were not members of a club. In the first year, the learning curve was very steep; moorings, insurance, maintenance, destinations... you name it, we had to learn it.
In the second year we joined a club. So much friendly advice and knowledge on tap accelerated our learning beyond anything we could have done alone.
Go to the different clubs (assuming you've got a choice), find out which do the type of things you are interested in, ask about moorings, ask about suggestions for a first boat, ask about insurance, ask about destinations. You will soon be invited to look/try different boats and be inundated with entirely biased suggestions for a suitable boat. You will probably be pointed at boats that are for sale and may well be able to try them.
Basically immerse yourself as much as possible in the pool of enthusiasts that are around you. You will never look back...

 

[Tranona]

If you want to see what can be achieved on a modest budget look at nickrj post on liveaboard and his blog.

£6500 worth of Contessa 26, no money left over after getting her ready. 2 years and 17000 miles later back home in OZ.

Shows it can be done if you are determined enough!

 

[Sneaky Pete]

The question of whether boats depreciate or not is an interesting one! And the answer seems to be, it depends on the boat and on how you're counting. A well known type like my own Moody is probably still worth about the same number of pounds as she was bought for new. And barring serious structural problems, an shabby example probably won't be a lot less than a really good example, because the type is well known, has a good reputation for build quality, and most things that are wrong are likely to be cosmetic.

I would agree here, I've been looking for months, I have two lists, one of what the boat must have and one for desirable. There are boats out there of well known builders they can only be described as (minging) and priced at top dollar. I would like a good project boat I believe it is the only way to learn about the boat and you know what you are sailing then. However there are many boats that are selling for more than they originally cost new. I have been told many times over the past months that if you maintain and look after your craft it will hold and/or increase in value.

One line of thought is to buy a craft that will allow you to get onto the water safely and allow you to learn about sailing rather than spend months learning about how to maintain/repair your purchase.