Buying Second Hand

[DKnight]

I am currently thinking of purchasing a yacht like a Moody 336, probably about £50K-£55K bracket, and generally the boats I get details on are about 10 years old.
At this price point there are many New boats available, Bavaria's, Beneteau's and Jeanneau's to name a few.
I am finding it hard to justify spending this sum on a secondhand boat.
Admitably a second hand boat may come with lots of goodies, but a new boat can be fitted out how you want it, over a few years
This weekend I viewed a Bavaria 320 the owner was asking £49K and it was 9 years old. Yet the equivallent new Bavaria 32 has an on the water price of £45K!
Do yacht owners ask top drawer prices with out accepting what is happening in the New Boat market, or do they generally ask 15% above what would be deemed a sensible price!


DK

 

[andrewhopkins]

The last few years...

The last couple of years have seen more competition between beneateau/jeaneau and Bavaria as well as the introduction of new "cheap" boats like Hanse.

In additional, exchange rates have meant that the prices of new boats from these yards has come down dramatically.

You are right in saying that the owner is blinkered to these changes and I would definately buy a new Bavaria than a 2nd hand one unless you can get a bigger one for your money.

I bought a 3 year old Bav 35 for £59K last year so Im sure you can pick one up for £50K now.

Im sure you could offer him £40K and he'd consider £43K or so. Dont forget that the equipment, anchors, warps, instruments, liferafts add up to a lot (perhaps £5K).

Dont dismiss the moodys or anything else though, ask for a test sail and see what you think.

 

[Stemar]

There's a reason why some boats hold their value so much that they cost more than new boats from other stables, in the same way as there's a reason that a 10 year old Mercedes costs more than a new Skoda.

A ten year old Moody could still be worth the same in another 10 years. What will your Ben/Jan/Bav be worth?

Also, with a second hand boat, you may well find equipment on board that would cost several thousand pounds to add to your new one.

 

[lezgar]

when buying second hand be aware with possible encumbrances, mortgages or if the boat is not registered or SSR register.

 

[Twister_Ken]

Re: The last few years...

This may not apply to the boats you are considering, but is a generalisation to be borne in mind.

In an increasingly price-competitive market, new boats tend to be built down to a price and this can be seen in a careful examination. Builders shouldn't be cutting corners in a way that jeopardises safety, but they economise in ways that will eventually cost the owner money in replacement, maintenance or repair. Examples include things like:

The lowest spec deck gear that will do the job. It will wear more quickly, and require more effort to operate.

Short warps, skinny fenders, cheap running rigging, that will need to be added to or upgraded.

Hidden woodwork given one coat of varnish - not enough to properly seal it. Things like underberth lockers will often have lids cut from thin ply, that will eventually warp or sag.

Upholstery that looks good at the boat show, but doesn't resist dirt and wear, and needs replacing after a few years. Also cushions, etc, held in place with Velcro tabs, which give up the ghost in short order, rather than using heavy duty press studs.

Push fitting accessories, rather than ones that are screwed or bracketed into place. I've sailed a Jeanneau in which deck head lights popped out and were left dangling by the pounding going upwind in a f6.

Things like toerails finished with sharp edges, rather than rounded, so they saw through warps.

If you add up the total of putting things like that right over the first year or three of ownership, the real 'new cost' adds up.

Apart from all of the above, a new boat is generally woefully equipped in terms of inventory. Northshore, who do equip their boats generously, and whose boats are well built, once told me I should allow between 15 and 25% of the new cost, to add things like coloured and storm sails, electronics, kedge, extra anchor chain, flares, spinnaker sheets and pole, secondary sheet winches, lifejackets, liferaft, dan buoy, dinghy and outboard, crockery and cutlery, etc. You should be able to get most, if not all, of this in the deal for a used boat.

So before giving anyone (new or used) a cheque, have a good crawl around to see how much more you'd have to spend to get the lugger equipped how you want.

 

[billmacfarlane]

People selling second yachts might be asking top drawer prices but that doesn't mean to say that the price is the one that will be accepted. There's nothing to stop you putting in a bid for the Moody for the price that you think it's worth. After all the value of anything , boat , house , car etc is simply the price someone will be willing to pay for it. If you decide to buy new , do the same i.e try to get the price down. I've heard that the price of a new Bav is negotiable. If you decide to go for a new model don't to be too alarmed by the prophets of doom who say the price will plummet in x amount of years. I sold my 11 year old Jeanneau which I owned from new this summer and she surveyed well and I got an excellent price for her. The market is in a fairly unique position at the moment with excellent bargains to be had both new and second hand due to the conditions already mentioned. If you buy new now it's nigh on impossible to foretell what the market will be like in x years time when and if you sell again. Economists can't predict what will happen to the economy in 10 years time , likewise a group of grizzled old salts.

 

[PhilipStapleton]

As the owner of a 7 year old Bavaria 320, I 'd demand a premium over the current 32 footer from Frankfurt. The build quality is "Halberg Rassy" standard (rather than "Hunter Legend" standard as now) and, from memory, by the time we'd paid, VAT, Opal's fitting out fees, installed a basic set of intruments etc., the bill was £20K higher that the "boat show special" price. (It was still great value though!)

 

[Guest]

If you like a second hand boat, get a survey and then haggle! There is always a lot more gear, of better quality than the stuff that's supplied with a new boat, on a second hand one that's been used regularly. Some of it may not be to your liking, and some will need replacing, but you've at least got a boat that's ready to sail.
People generally ask way over what they expect to get to give themselves some bargaining room. I know of one ex-navy minesweeper that sold last year. Asking price for what was at the time a mobile test bed for some very nice marine equipment £70,000. Sold for 17,500!!!!

 

[Guest]

Interesting, we are in exactly the same position. We have been sailing a Moody 28 for the last few years and she is a very solid little boat. We have sold her at a good price well above what we paid six years ago.
We too have been put off the idea of buying another Moody ten years old at over .£50K plus and we are being tempted to buy the new Bavaria 32. We have seen adverts for the old 320 or 32H but have been told to steer clear due to build quality. The new 32 looks nice boat as has been said, by the time you add the extras at the huge prices being asked by the Agent it soon adds up to a tidy sum.It does still seem good value assuming the build quality is good.
Any other input on Bavarias?

 

[Guest]

Halberg Rassy standard ?????????? Are you absolutely sure about that ????????? I'm sure HR would have a lot to say about that ......

On the surface it may appear that way, but not once you peel away the cosmetics.

Good but not HR ..... otherwise it would be the Bargain of the Century and HR would not be sold-out for foreseeable future !!!!

 

[Guest]

Bav's have a poor reputation for re-sale values ..... sad but true.

 

[Guest]

Re: The last few years...

Many of the 'bargain-end' new boats have less quality cabin fittings. A Jeanneau recently looked at new had poorly finished cabin table edges and also lockers / etc. were 'cheaply finished'.
The older had better, harder wearing fittings and this will show after a few seasons.
It is a fact that Lada ideas are creeping into the boat industry, as recession and cost cutting hits. It is also partly to blame from the buyers - who insist on more and more for their money, creating a cost exercise for the suppliers..... Its great having a shiny XXXXX sitting in the marina, later the marina crane lifts it and it breaks its back ..... a true story of cost cutting techniques and the marina in question now bans this particular USA import from its Crane etc.

So its starting to come home ----- you get what you pay for.

I have to say that I do not build boats ...... it is purely my opinion and what I see as I look around boats surveying and checking out etc.

Finally - the shear cost of equipment quickly mounts to increase the purchase price of that new boat to levels that make your wallet scream ...... so compare like with like - equipment levels etc. Price according to a sensible inventory that allows safe and reasonable cruising - the shock is enough when you add it all up !!!!!!!!
Nigel L