Buying - help please

Fr J Hackett said:
I have no doubt that continuously variable reefing of the main has advantages for some boats but if I had to go that way and it would be a cold day in hell if I did then in boom reefing covers all the advantages with none of the disadvantages plus it allows for easy fully battened sails ( I know that you can have vertical battens )
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What are the disadvantages. Have you ever actually owned a boat with in mast furling or in boom (which also has its own drawbacks and has never gained popularity except on very large boats)? If not how can you dismiss something when you have no experience?
 
Tranona said:
What are the disadvantages. Have you ever actually owned a boat with in mast furling or in boom (which also has its own drawbacks and has never gained popularity except on very large boats)? If not how can you dismiss something when you have no experience?
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There is a perceived convenience which may or may not be the case of in mast reefing on first look it seems attractive, I don't know but I do know that should there be a problem and it has happened the consequences of either failure or getting it stuck when partially furled are massive in comparison to any problem with slab reefing or in boom reefing. The other downside is the additional weight above the boom when it's partially furled more so if the sail is fully battened. Those would be enough to steer me away from in mast furling.
You might have noticed that I did say that on a large boat greater than say 50 feet I would consider in boom but would more than likely choose slab reefing with a Park Lane boom.
I have never sailed on a yacht with in mast reefing but have sailed on a 60 foot yacht with in boom reefing which worked well enough but as I understood from the owner needed very careful setting up initially. It did have the obvious advantage that it could easily be dropped should the need arise due to failure of the hydraulic reefing.
 
Athomson said:
Yes so my suggestion was to ask people who own them if you can actually STEER from the position inside. And in his location you'd think anyone would want that ability in various weathers.
Thats what I was saying. Not so much for their ability to steer from inside.
Earlier suggestion I made was to ask at the local yacht club what people there find an acceptable compromise. But read between the lines. Most people will tell you how great their boat is, getting their deficiencies may be less easy.
I wonder why people don't want them? They're expensive and lack the modern look and pose factor which is important to a lot of people, and a lot of people are always racing just against other boats going in the same direction. Its not necessarily a bad idea just because most people haven't thought it through though. Its just accepted that yachts are open and sailing seasons are short. Have they considered how much more use they'd get and therefore value for expense if they had a wheel house? I used to live aboard year round and before that had small yachts which I never put ashore over winter. The usually boat park like rivers are empty, sunsets go on for hours, the birds on the estuary are different. But the cold chases you into the cabin with no view so you might as well go home. I can picture John pottering out into the bay on a windless winter day in a cosy warm wheelhouse mug in hand, or a wet day with a promise of a break later... I should have worked in marketing
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No problem with you starting a new thread on the subject as it is only a minor part of this one.

However the subject has been done to death over the years and the general conclusion is that some people love the idea - but rarely actually own such a boat (or any boat at all). Markets decide what people buy and while some people may be in love with the idea, those with the money choose to buy something different. This is not through lack of choice. Go back 30 years and there was a huge range of motor sailors on the market. Where are they all now? they disappeared because there were not enough people prepared to pay the premium and lose many of the features that make summer cruising in the UK so enjoyable. It is correct that there is potential for extending the season but this does not seem to be a big driver. Come October winter season of indoor activities beckon plus those with that sort of money start booking their skiing breaks and winter sun in the Maldives.

The big beneficiaries of the boat built between the 60-90s are liveaboards (some of whom inhabit this forum) who can pick up Colvics, Halberdiars, Salars Nauticat 33s, Barbary ketches, Neptunes etc for modest sums.
 
Fr J Hackett said:
There is a perceived convenience which may or may not be the case of in mast reefing on first look it seems attractive, I don't know but I do know that should there be a problem and it has happened the consequences of either failure or getting it stuck when partially furled are massive in comparison to any problem with slab reefing or in boom reefing. The other downside is the additional weight above the boom when it's partially furled more so if the sail is fully battened. Those would be enough to steer me away from in mast furling.
You might have noticed that I did say that on a large boat greater than say 50 feet I would consider in boom but would more than likely choose slab reefing with a Park Lane boom.
I have never sailed on a yacht with in mast reefing but have sailed on a 60 foot yacht with in boom reefing which worked well enough but as I understood from the owner needed very careful setting up initially. It did have the obvious advantage that it could easily be dropped should the need arise due to failure of the hydraulic reefing.
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Myths I am afraid just not supported by the evidence. Of course you may get failures - but as I suggested in another reply you get failures with all rigs at some point or other. Weight is again a myth coming from a report 40 years ago which (rightly) shows that if you add a furling jib and add on in mast to a small (30') boat that was never designed for it you will have stability issues. Do you seriously think the worlds top designers and builders who make boats with in mast are not aware of the issues and take them into account in design. My last boat had the in mast option and the mast was a smaller slightly lighter section and the sail weighed less because it had no battens, headboards or batten cars. The stability curves were the same as the battened sail option. Thank you Mr Farr who designed it.

Pity I no longer own the boat as you would have been welcome to try it.

You are right over 50' in boom starts to look attractive but they are sophisticated bits of kit that don't translate to smaller designs.
 
Tranona said:
Myths I am afraid just not supported by the evidence. Of course you may get failures - but as I suggested in another reply you get failures with all rigs at some point or other. Weight is again a myth coming from a report 40 years ago which (rightly) shows that if you add a furling jib and add on in mast to a small (30') boat that was never designed for it you will have stability issues. Do you seriously think the worlds top designers and builders who make boats with in mast are not aware of the issues and take them into account in design. My last boat had the in mast option and the mast was a smaller slightly lighter section and the sail weighed less because it had no battens, headboards or batten cars. The stability curves were the same as the battened sail option. Thank you Mr Farr who designed it.

Pity I no longer own the boat as you would have been welcome to try it.

You are right over 50' in boom starts to look attractive but they are sophisticated bits of kit that don't translate to smaller designs.
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Which is the point I make under the mid low 40' are there really advantages of continuous reefing either in boom or in mast? I take your point that some yachts may need the ability to balance a partially furled jib, of that I have no practical experience and from a personal perspective ( which is academic now) could never envisage owning such a yacht.
 
Fr J Hackett, I've not used in mast reefing, but one of the things that does make me curious about it - is my shorter crew find it difficult (or on some boats impossible) to reach to zip up the sail bag along the boom. Sounds silly but its definitely real - even at the mast end in rocky conditions I'd say its not designed for someone 5'3". For both putting up and taking down the sail that is probably our major issue. Mast step, probably the right set up of vang and topping lift etc - and you can probably reduce the priority of this, but I note there's a thread elsewhere on getting the battens caught on the lazy jacks (which I have experienced) so its not like any system is perfect.
 
ylop said:
Fr J Hackett, I've not used in mast reefing, but one of the things that does make me curious about it - is my shorter crew find it difficult (or on some boats impossible) to reach to zip up the sail bag along the boom. Sounds silly but its definitely real - even at the mast end in rocky conditions I'd say its not designed for someone 5'3". For both putting up and taking down the sail that is probably our major issue. Mast step, probably the right set up of vang and topping lift etc - and you can probably reduce the priority of this, but I note there's a thread elsewhere on getting the battens caught on the lazy jacks (which I have experienced) so its not like any system is perfect.
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Yes it's a problem but as you say a simple mast step helps to get the zip together then a short lanyard on the zip helps to pull it back. Securing the boom and reducing it's hight as much as possible via vang or topping lift also helps. Lots of solutions for getting battens caught in Lazy Jacks from pulling them forward to the mast to motoring head to wind. It can even be done undersail. As the god capnsensible often says practice and you soon learn to overcome it.
For the mast steps get a couple of the ones that fold up when not in use they will make it easier similarly a pair at the top of the mast if you don't want to go the whole hog make working at the top of the mast so much easier.
 
I am not for a moment suggesting that slab reefing is perfect, however, when it does present problems, they are not as frightening or difficult as having a main that is stuck at 90% out as a 50kt squall approaches.

As you mention fin and spade underwater profiles, I'll give you another anecdote: 100 miles west of Vavau on a Beneteau Idylle, the internal welds of the rudder failed. We tried all the ideas people have about how to deal with the situation:
- steer with the sail balance
- use a door and spinnaker pole as a rudder
- use a bucket/drogue
- attach lines to the rudder to move it from winches
From experience, I can tell you that in a decent breeze and an ocean swell, the lack of directional stability offered by a fin and (failed) spade makes all of these suggestions unworkable. When it came to choosing and equipping my own boat for circumnavigating, the fin and spade profile was ruled out, we also have a transom-hung spare rudder, in the form of a hydrovane.

As you seem to hold HRs as some kind of gold-standard, I have to say that I disagree. They used to be overengineered seakind offshore cruising boats, but they are now trading off that reputation with design decisions that no longer fit this description.
 
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Thanks guys, I will discuss with locals yacht owners, already met a few. Spray hood vs pilothouse seems to be the main issue now, looked at Fishers - too expensive for one that is in good condition IMO and I shall want to be out in the open in good weather. Re the furling main... I wouldn't mind single line reefing so this widens the choice, and there is also the option of In-Boom reefing which I had never heard of, as explained here which looks interesting:
In-Boom reefing
Thanks for everyone's inputs! Cheers JohnP
 
Fr J Hackett said:
Which is the point I make under the mid low 40' are there really advantages of continuous reefing either in boom or in mast? I take your point that some yachts may need the ability to balance a partially furled jib, of that I have no practical experience and from a personal perspective ( which is academic now) could never envisage owning such a yacht.
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I maybe did not explain the "balancing" bit well enough. The jib is not partly furled - it is just 106%. The main is reefed first and being ab le to roll just a bit away (as one might with a genoa) rather than a whole reef results in a more balanced sail area in relation to the wind strength. The whole point is that just like a furling genoa your choices of sail area are infinite rather than predetermined. How many people have individual sized foresails now when infinitely variable furling sails are available? As to ways round the problems of battened sails, why should it be any different with furling sails? Almost all the criticisms from people who do not have them are solvable in just the same way. Follow the instructions and practice and amazingly all the problems you can think of disappear. How do you think I managed nearly 25 years with none of the perceived problems?

The 6 years I had my Bavaria 33 I never once had a problem and managed to sail up and down the coast in and out of my own marina berth, anchored in many delightful places all on my own. Best bit is that the rig allowed me to set sail just outside the marina in minutes and then sail all the way in and out of Poole harbour, tacking down the channels.

So yes, there are real advantages if you are prepared to forget about your past prejudices and look for them rather than dismissing based on myths and other individuals' views. As I said earlier they are nothing new and revolutionary and would never have gained the market share they have if they were as awful as the naysayers pretend.

Little bit of sailing porn. furling mainsail does not seem to impede Michael - he chose it deliberately and his videos show how he makes use of it mjambo.de
 
Praxinoscope said:
If it wasn’t for the bilge/ lifting keel requirements, I would have thought that a Fisher 34 would suit, warm coachhouse, well built, good accommodation, but wouldn’t really suit a shallow or drying mooring, so not really a possibility.
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Except for very poor sailing performance below 25 knots (ie in the winds might want to sail in) and tend to roll like a pig in beam seas.
Pretty boats in harbour though.
 
Athomson said:
Or did we invent them because lack of wheel houses chased us from the water?
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No. Sailing has always been primarily a summer activity. In the past the poor owners hid their boats in mud berths and the rich hauled theirs out into sheds and decamped to the South of France or the Caribbean.
 
roaringgirl said:
I am not for a moment suggesting that slab reefing is perfect, however, when it does present problems, they are not as frightening or difficult as having a main that is stuck at 90% out as a 50kt squall approaches.

As you mention fin and spade underwater profiles, I'll give you another anecdote: 100 miles west of Vavau on a Beneteau Idylle, the internal welds of the rudder failed. We tried all the ideas people have about how to deal with the situation:
- steer with the sail balance
- use a door and spinnaker pole as a rudder
- use a bucket/drogue
- attach lines to the rudder to move it from winches
From experience, I can tell you that in a decent breeze and an ocean swell, the lack of directional stability offered by a fin and (failed) spade makes all of these suggestions unworkable. When it came to choosing and equipping my own boat for circumnavigating, the fin and spade profile was ruled out, we also have a transom-hung spare rudder, in the form of a hydrovane.
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Thanks for the anecdote, but you might have guessed by now that I am an academic and rather more fond of systematic evidence. For every single anecdote of a boat having a problem there are thousands who don't and for every one that involves a modern boat with fin and spade you can find one that involves a long keel boat.

It is relying on anecdotes that closes our minds. We have a saying in my discipline "A way of seeing is a way of not seeing". So if you go looking for examples of fin keeled boats failing in some way that is what you will find. If you go looking for failed transom hung rudders you will find those too. You might find Karl Popper a useful read on one of your long night watches. You might then come to the conclusion that to really understand what is going on you need to collect data on all failures, analyse the causes and see if you can find demonstrable patterns. Clearly impossible but it is lazy thinking to assume that anecdotes have any more value than to find out exactly what went wrong in that case. Extrapolating from the single case to the general is not good.

As to choice for circumnavigation there are many more who made different choices and achieved their objective. Just look at the number of modern fin keeled yachts built in Europe that now wander around the Pacific and Australasia. How do you think they got there? Or the number of Australians who have bought ex charter boats in the Med and sailed them back home. Just a couple of examples to show that the old style boats are not a prerequisite for ocean sailing. It would be depressing if they were as it would mean there has been no worthwhile development in Yacht design for over 50 years.
 
johnp99 said:
Thanks guys, I will discuss with locals yacht owners, already met a few. Spray hood vs pilothouse seems to be the main issue now, looked at Fishers - too expensive for one that is in good condition IMO and I shall want to be out in the open in good weather. Re the furling main... I wouldn't mind single line reefing so this widens the choice, and there is also the option of In-Boom reefing which I had never heard of, as explained here which looks interesting:
In-Boom reefing
Thanks for everyone's inputs! Cheers JohnP
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Yes keep an open mind. You can only buy what is for sail and type of rig is not a deal breaker. On this size of boat either works (but slightly differently). BTW almost all Eclipses have in mast - it was part of positioning it for its intended market.
 
Tranona said:
I maybe did not explain the "balancing" bit well enough. The jib is not partly furled - it is just 106%. The main is reefed first and being ab le to roll just a bit away (as one might with a genoa) rather than a whole reef results in a more balanced sail area in relation to the wind strength. The whole point is that just like a furling genoa your choices of sail area are infinite rather than predetermined. How many people have individual sized foresails now when infinitely variable furling sails are available? As to ways round the problems of battened sails, why should it be any different with furling sails? Almost all the criticisms from people who do not have them are solvable in just the same way. Follow the instructions and practice and amazingly all the problems you can think of disappear. How do you think I managed nearly 25 years with none of the perceived problems?

The 6 years I had my Bavaria 33 I never once had a problem and managed to sail up and down the coast in and out of my own marina berth, anchored in many delightful places all on my own. Best bit is that the rig allowed me to set sail just outside the marina in minutes and then sail all the way in and out of Poole harbour, tacking down the channels.

So yes, there are real advantages if you are prepared to forget about your past prejudices and look for them rather than dismissing based on myths and other individuals' views. As I said earlier they are nothing new and revolutionary and would never have gained the market share they have if they were as awful as the naysayers pretend.

Little bit of sailing porn. furling mainsail does not seem to impede Michael - he chose it deliberately and his videos show how he makes use of it mjambo.de
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None of the dits I am telling are 'myths', they all happened. To me or those close to me.

Something I learned the hard way about sailing is that a lot of the design decisions only matter when things go wrong, and for lots of people, they never do. I learned recently that one of the huge advantages of a keel stepped mast is not to do with sailing performance, but the ability to remove all the rigging and have it stay upright at anchor - which allows serious rigging problems to be fixed when no crane is available.
 
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