Buying - help please

[roaringgirl]

Is an in-mast furler really any easier to handle than single-line reefing? The friends I have with them say they are always struggling with outhaul tension vs furler tension and boom angle and they have to furl on a specific angle on a specific tack.

I can put a reef in our main from the cockpit, on my own - as it's never necessary to control the tension of more than one line. It is often possible even downwind. The fully battened main gives much better performance too.

 

[Tranona]

Is an in-mast furler really any easier to handle than single-line reefing? The friends I have with them say they are always struggling with outhaul tension vs furler tension and boom angle and they have to furl on a specific angle on a specific tack.

I can put a reef in our main from the cockpit, on my own - as it's never necessary to control the tension of more than one line. It is often possible even downwind. The fully battened main gives much better performance too.

Yes, if it is set up properly. Plus it has the advantage of being infinitely adjustable rather than limited to 3 (or maybe 4) fixed sail sizes. Don't know what type of furler your friends have but i have had Selden on 2 boats and never had the problems you describe. You just need to understand how it works and like anything practice your routines. Having good sails obviously helps.

Furling mainsails dominate the larger cruiser boat market (90% of HRs over 40' have furling mainsails) and this sort of boat is usually bought by experienced people who appreciate the benefits - and of course the designer takes the type of rig into account from the start.

 

[roaringgirl]

Yes, if it is set up properly. Plus it has the advantage of being infinitely adjustable rather than limited to 3 (or maybe 4) fixed sail sizes. Don't know what type of furler your friends have but i have had Selden on 2 boats and never had the problems you describe. You just need to understand how it works and like anything practice your routines. Having good sails obviously helps.

Furling mainsails dominate the larger cruiser boat market (90% of HRs over 40' have furling mainsails) and this sort of boat is usually bought by experienced people who appreciate the benefits - and of course the designer takes the type of rig into account from the start.

The newer HRs you are referring to are the same ones that have those new-fangled bolt-on keels aren't they?

Much as I still feel like a n00b, in terms of time spent aboard and distance covered I'm at the experienced end of the scale, and I wouldn't buy an in-mast furling rig. I have *never* wished for a reef point between 1 and 2 or 2 and 3, and this is the only advantage you've presented!

 

[roaringgirl]

The newer HRs you are referring to are the same ones that have those new-fangled bolt-on keels aren't they?

Much as I still feel like a n00b, in terms of time spent aboard and distance covered I'm at the experienced end of the scale, and I wouldn't buy an in-mast furling rig. I have *never* wished for a reef point between 0 and 1, 1 and 2 or 2 and 3, and this is the only advantage you've presented!

 

[Adios]

John I think it would be well worth starting a separate thread asking for opinions from owners of the raised coach roof pilot house type of yacht to see if anyone actually steers from below and what the visibility is at night and in rain or spray or with wash from pitching. With that moody's layout I can imagine people setting their autohelm from below and having to stand by the front window in the galley trying to peer out, not steering from the helm position. Other than that being a bit crap anyway sometimes you really need to hand steer if the autohelm can't cope, not uncommon in a quartering sea. You might still think its ok to live with sometimes having to steer from outside but those times are exactly the times you'd most want to be inside. But don't take my guesswork there must be owners with experience to share.

 

[Tranona]

The newer HRs you are referring to are the same ones that have those new-fangled bolt-on keels aren't they?

Much as I still feel like a n00b, in terms of time spent aboard and distance covered I'm at the experienced end of the scale, and I wouldn't buy an in-mast furling rig. I have *never* wished for a reef point between 1 and 2 or 2 and 3, and this is the only advantage you've presented!

No, I am talking about the "old" style HRs going back 30 years. Go on Yachtworld or Yachtmarket and bring all the used HRs for sale if you don't believe me. as a matter of fact, HR are pushing battened sails on their newer boats chasing performance, but from what I see their naughty customers seem to prefer the furling option. no real data, but the few that I have seen so far have all had furling mainsails.

There is nothing new about furling mainsails. Experienced people have been using them for years. Of course you have never felt the need for infinitely variable mainsail area (although probably use it for your furling genoa) because you have never had the facility. Once you have you will use it.

Helps to forget about the rig you currently have if you change to a new one and learn how to use what is on offer. Rarely do you hear of people who have in mast (or in boom) furling going back to older ways. Infinitely variable sail area is just one feature, but as you have never tried it you won't discover how user friendly it is.

 

[Tranona]

John I think it would be well worth starting a separate thread asking for opinions from owners of the raised coach roof pilot house type of yacht to see if anyone actually steers from below and what the visibility is at night and in rain or spray or with wash from pitching. With that moody's layout I can imagine people setting their autohelm from below and having to stand by the front window in the galley trying to peer out, not steering from the helm position. Other than that being a bit crap anyway sometimes you really need to hand steer if the autohelm can't cope, not uncommon in a quartering sea. You might still think its ok to live with sometimes having to steer from outside but those times are exactly the times you'd most want to be inside. But don't take my guesswork there must be owners with experience to share.

Read the original post and particularly post#30. He is very clear he is not looking for an all weather motor sailor, but a sailing boar with an inside steering position.

Getting a full stand up wheelhouse on a sailing boat this size is simply not possible if you want to have good sailing ability. Once you get above 40' then options get wider, but even then the raised deck saloon dominates. People like raised deck saloons because it means you can rest and eat indoors with aa view out when anchored - highly desirable in northern latitudes as it extends the sailing season. Hence their popularity in Scandinavia. However in the UK, even in the north most people find the compromise of a sailing boat with a good sprayhood, maybe cockpit canopy and an autopilot add up to a good compromise.

Boats like the Fisher and the Colvic equivalents only ever sold in tiny numbers because they only appeal to a very small number of people and in fact there is nothing similar being built today. IK the Fisher is being built in sri Lanka, but they have only sold a handful in the 10 years or so they have been doing it.

 

[Fr J Hackett]

Having sailed all my life with slab reefing eventually single line lead back to the cockpit on boats up to 40 foot I can honestly say that I have never felt the need for in mast reefing and the idea of it getting jammed whilst partially furled doesn't bear thinking about, I know it would be a rare occurrence but it is a possibility. If I were to own a 50 foot plus boat I might consider an in boom furling system but in all probability would still choose slab reefing with a Park Lane boom and powered winches to help raise a fully battened main.
When I was a boy I did sail a converted ships lifeboat with a roller boom reefing now that was a pain in the arse that I can still remember.

 

[Praxinoscope]

If it wasn’t for the bilge/ lifting keel requirements, I would have thought that a Fisher 34 would suit, warm coachhouse, well built, good accommodation, but wouldn’t really suit a shallow or drying mooring, so not really a possibility.

 

[Fr J Hackett]

If it wasn’t for the bilge/ lifting keel requirements, I would have thought that a Fisher 34 would suit, warm coachhouse, well built, good accommodation, but wouldn’t really suit a shallow or drying mooring, so not really a possibility.

As Tranona said they are a bit sluggish as standard but with changes can be made to sail better but they are never going to point well, that and I don't think the OP will get one for £70K a Vancouver 34 pilot house maybe or a Nauticat 35 are possibilities but are rare and possibly depending on age outside of budget.

 

[Tranona]

Having sailed all my life with slab reefing eventually single line lead back to the cockpit on boats up to 40 foot I can honestly say that I have never felt the need for in mast reefing and the idea of it getting jammed whilst partially furled doesn't bear thinking about, I know it would be a rare occurrence but it is a possibility. If I were to own a 50 foot plus boat I might consider an in boom furling system but in all probability would still choose slab reefing with a Park Lane boom and powered winches to help raise a fully battened main.
When I was a boy I did sail a converted ships lifeboat with a roller boom reefing now that was a pain in the arse that I can still remember.

But, like roaringgirl you have never owned a boat with in mast furling so you have no experience. Jamming is rare and almost always caused by misuse (and as nobody has ever experienced problems in dripping conventional mains). Do you really think a product that has been on the market for near 40 years and widely used does not provide value in all senses of the word to its buyers?

I have owned both, and in fact am just changing from 25 years of in mast to old fashioned slab reefing (and an encapsulated long keel). Quite happy with that decision as I know how to set it up to suit my needs. However it will be a very different sailing experience than in my previous larger and faster modern boat with high aspect ratio fractional rig that I could control from behind the wheel (and fly a large cruising chute). That boat had a mainsail orientated rig and 106% jib. Being able to roll away a small bit of main was invaluable to balance the boat as the wind got up. Never bothered (like many people) in marking the foot to simulate reef 1,2,3 - why? as if there is some rule that sail reduction must be in predetermined discrete lumps! It might help those converting from slab but it means you don't take advantage of what is on offer.

As I said earlier you have to forget about the way your current rig works and learn how to get the best out of the new rig. No different to changing from a heavy long keel hull to a modern fin and spade - they are different and behave differently. I shall find this out when I get my old boat back in commission - but I know what to expect.

 

[Fr J Hackett]

But, like roaringgirl you have never owned a boat with in mast furling so you have no experience. Jamming is rare and almost always caused by misuse (and as nobody has ever experienced problems in dripping conventional mains). Do you really think a product that has been on the market for near 40 years and widely used does not provide value in all senses of the word to its buyers?

I have owned both, and in fact am just changing from 25 years of in mast to old fashioned slab reefing (and an encapsulated long keel). Quite happy with that decision as I know how to set it up to suit my needs. However it will be a very different sailing experience than in my previous larger and faster modern boat with high aspect ratio fractional rig that I could control from behind the wheel (and fly a large cruising chute). That boat had a mainsail orientated rig and 106% jib. Being able to roll away a small bit of main was invaluable to balance the boat as the wind got up. Never bothered (like many people) in marking the foot to simulate reef 1,2,3 - why? as if there is some rule that sail reduction must be in predetermined discrete lumps! It might help those converting from slab but it means you don't take advantage of what is on offer.

As I said earlier you have to forget about the way your current rig works and learn how to get the best out of the new rig. No different to changing from a heavy long keel hull to a modern fin and spade - they are different and behave differently. I shall find this out when I get my old boat back in commission - but I know what to expect.

I have no doubt that continuously variable reefing of the main has advantages for some boats but if I had to go that way and it would be a cold day in hell if I did then in boom reefing covers all the advantages with none of the disadvantages plus it allows for easy fully battened sails ( I know that you can have vertical battens )

 

[ylop]

johnp99 - we face a similar conundrum without your requirement for keeping on a drying mooring. We do add an extra complication because half the crew get quite sea sick so trying to find the best compromise also involves minimising this. Oh and my budget is not quite as big as yours!

One other question please, the Moody Eclipse MK2 uses an autopilot system in the cabin (no physical helm), does this mean that ALL other yachts could use similar...and therefore the whole point of a physical internal helm position is effectively null and void? Confused again. Thanks Johnp

Yes in principle any boat can be sailed with an autohelm, and modern autohelms allow multiple inputs so you can set/change it from "down below". What you can't do though on a typical yacht is see out - so you can't maintain a proper lookout, or even really keep an eye on the sails. You could certainly set the autohelm and then stay under the sprayhood, that is what many people do.

Summary - Fisher 34 vs say Moody Eclipse ... both have internal helm position with a view, warm and dry. Moody has also rear helm for proper sailing in 'nice' weather, both sail ok, Motorsailer has more room. Is this about it... or have I missed a crucial element?

I think you'd need to sail both to see how it feels sailing inside. One of my dilemas is do you lose the magic of silently gliding, the ripple of water and the feeling of the wind. I've started with your position but am heading towards traditional yacht with big sprayhood for actual sailing.

I think the other thing to consider is will you ever want to eat outside with say a family of 4? the Fisher has very limited space in the "cockpit". If your dream is that 1/2 the time you are in cold blowy conditions where a shelter is good, does being stuck inside a shed ruin the other 1/2 the time when its very pleasant - either for dining at anchor or sailing in nice conditions. My deciding factor is likely to be how it feels inside. Most fisher's feel rather dated to me, lost of dark wood, relatively cramped compared to modern yachts (likely for good nautical reasons but I suspect more than half the time I am aboard I'll actually be at anchor/mooring so that matters just as much as whether I can get 1/2 know faster or point 4deg further upwind, or if it will be good in ocean conditions I'm never planning to use it in.

 

[Adios]

He is very clear he is not looking for an all weather motor sailor, but a sailing boar with an inside steering position.

Yes so my suggestion was to ask people who own them if you can actually STEER from the position inside. And in his location you'd think anyone would want that ability in various weathers.

People like raised deck saloons because it means you can rest and eat indoors with aa view out when anchored

Thats what I was saying. Not so much for their ability to steer from inside.

However in the UK, even in the north most people find the compromise of a sailing boat with a good sprayhood, maybe cockpit canopy and an autopilot add up to a good compromise.

Earlier suggestion I made was to ask at the local yacht club what people there find an acceptable compromise. But read between the lines. Most people will tell you how great their boat is, getting their deficiencies may be less easy.

Boats like the Fisher and the Colvic equivalents only ever sold in tiny numbers because they only appeal to a very small number of people and in fact there is nothing similar being built today.

I wonder why people don't want them? They're expensive and lack the modern look and pose factor which is important to a lot of people, and a lot of people are always racing just against other boats going in the same direction. Its not necessarily a bad idea just because most people haven't thought it through though. Its just accepted that yachts are open and sailing seasons are short. Have they considered how much more use they'd get and therefore value for expense if they had a wheel house? I used to live aboard year round and before that had small yachts which I never put ashore over winter. The usually boat park like rivers are empty, sunsets go on for hours, the birds on the estuary are different. But the cold chases you into the cabin with no view so you might as well go home. I can picture John pottering out into the bay on a windless winter day in a cosy warm wheelhouse mug in hand, or a wet day with a promise of a break later... I should have worked in marketing

 

[roaringgirl]

We sailed a year ago from Bequia to Antigua in the company of a 47' sloop with in-mast furling. It was a rough trip, especially as we passed the channels between the islands. As we approached the channel south of Guadeloupe our friends found their in-mast furling was stuck. They spent a few hours tacking back and forth trying to free it in about 30kts. I remember thinking to myself 'oh shit, what now?'.

Coincidentally it was the same trip where our genoa furler control line snapped (of course it was at 0200 on a moonless night beating into 30kts with 2m swells). When the line snapped the whole sail (170%) unfurled and started flogging. Thankfully the two of us were able to drop it onto the foredeck, lash it down and motor until daylight.

I can't help thinking that in-mast furling is the answer to a question no-one asked, and its popularity is due to people being intimidated by the *idea* of slab reefing, or thinking there's no other system available for shortening sail without leaving the cockpit. Later that year the crew of the 47' boat sold it and sailed with us on our boat from Antigua to Bonaire. After seeing how easy it was to reef the main, they said they would avoid in-mast reefing next time and look for a boat with single-line slab reefing.

 

[roaringgirl]

The same 47' boat with in-mast furling had the weld fail where the halyard attaches to the furler at the head of the mainsail during their Atlantic crossing. They then had to drop the main while underway, which required them removing the full-length vertical battens.

 

[Praxinoscope]

As Tranona said they are a bit sluggish as standard but with changes can be made to sail better but they are never going to point well, that and I don't think the OP will get one for £70K a Vancouver 34 pilot house maybe or a Nauticat 35 are possibilities but are rare and possibly depending on age outside of budget.

[/QUOTE]

Agreed that the Fishers are not the fastest boats or incredible to windward, but can be bought in the OP’s price range and do answer most of the OP’s specs, there Is no undication that the OP intends to race, so the insurmontable problem is the underwater configuration.

 

[Fr J Hackett]

Agreed that the Fishers are not the fastest boats or incredible to windward, but can be bought in the OP’s price range and do answer most of the OP’s specs, there Is no undication that the OP intends to race, so the insurmontable problem is the underwater configuration.
[/QUOTE]

He does talk about sailing ability though and it leads one to imagine that he has some idea of performance in that respect. Although the desires seem a little nebulous and hence the range of responses. As for budget and a Fisher 34 it will be very early 80s perhaps late 70s so getting on for 50 years old and likely to need quite a bit spending on it.
If it were me I would go for a well found boat with a good spray hood and a cockpit tent that could be used at anchor plus a good below deck auto helm.

 

[Praxinoscope]

Fr J Hackett, I green with your preference as in #58. My only reason for bringing the Fisher into the thread was that there they offer comfort, especially substantial wheelhouse , and safe sailing, but it does strike me that what the OP is asking for doesn’t really exist in the price range unless going for an older boat.
A friend had beautiful Hilyard 13 ton a dream to sail although not so easy s/h also not a boat I would suggest to anyone but a real enthusiast with very deep pockets.

 

[Tranona]

We sailed a year ago from Bequia to Antigua in the company of a 47' sloop with in-mast furling. It was a rough trip, especially as we passed the channels between the islands. As we approached the channel south of Guadeloupe our friends found their in-mast furling was stuck. They spent a few hours tacking back and forth trying to free it in about 30kts. I remember thinking to myself 'oh shit, what now?'.

Coincidentally it was the same trip where our genoa furler control line snapped (of course it was at 0200 on a moonless night beating into 30kts with 2m swells). When the line snapped the whole sail (170%) unfurled and started flogging. Thankfully the two of us were able to drop it onto the foredeck, lash it down and motor until daylight.

I can't help thinking that in-mast furling is the answer to a question no-one asked, and its popularity is due to people being intimidated by the *idea* of slab reefing, or thinking there's no other system available for shortening sail without leaving the cockpit. Later that year the crew of the 47' boat sold it and sailed with us on our boat from Antigua to Bonaire. After seeing how easy it was to reef the main, they said they would avoid in-mast reefing next time and look for a boat with single-line slab reefing.

I am afraid your thinking is wrong. New boat buyers are more open minded and assess what is on offer against their perceived needs. Almost by definition many buyers are experienced people - first time buyers at this level are not common (sit on a new boat at a boat show for a day and you will be surprised at the experience potential buyers have) and will have had experience of slab reefing. Pretty naive buyer who as you suggest is that ignorant of what is available and the pros and cons. If indeed it was an answer to a question nobody asked why has it become dominant in the mid range cruiser market over the last 50 years. By your own admission you have zero personal experience and base your criticism on a couple of incidents that happen to other people. I could just as easily direct you to a constant stream of threads on forums about the potential and actual failings of slab reefing line friction, difficulty in dropping quickle, difficulty in hoisting, particularly on larger boats because of the weight and in many cases the height of the boom above deck. Of course many of the drawbacks can be solved by design and choice of gear plus practice in using it. But why should that not be the same for in mast? - which it is with improvements in sail design particularly.

Remember the old saw about not liking oysters until you tried them? How can you comment about in mast furling if you have never owned a boat fitted with it? Why not look around at the thousands that have (as well as owning and extensively cruising on boats with fin keels and spade rudders!). Are they all wrong?