Scarron
Well-Known Member
Absolutely, go on let us know what you are looking at, so we can egg you on...
buying from Channel Islands?
- Thread starter z1ppy
- Start date
Absolutely, go on let us know what you are looking at, so we can egg you on...
lovezoo
Well-Known Member
From a practical point of view, how would HRMC know that the boat had ever been exported from the UK/EU in the first place? If you export a car you have to inform the DVLA, but with a boat how would anyone know?
Tranona
Well-Known Member
In some ways you are right - there is no formal way of clearly identifying where a yacht is as it does not officially have a separate identity (although a Part 1 registration does give it some identity and record of ownership). There are, however other ways of determining where it has been, for example ships log, custome documentation, marina and maintenance bills, insurance, movements of the owner, Bills of Sale if it changed hands etc.
For HMRC to be interested they would need to have some suspicions that a Taxable event has taken place and would challenge you to show that it has not. Your defence would be just the kind of information suggested above, but showing that you complied with the rules.
DAKA
Well-Known Member
I dont think the forum is saying that, in fact jfm and Tranona would be good allies in persuading the yacht division of HMR&C that the HMR&C are wrong as it is the HMR&C who are claiming that as the case.
Everyone appears to be talking about proof and chances of getting caught......
the rules clearly state you must complete a C1331 form before you leave eu and on return to eu.
anyone who doesnt comply is taking a risk .
obviously there isnt a lot of chance of getting caught if you return during peak season the same as you most likely will get away with smuggling in several bails of wacky backy but it is just as illegal to smuggle a boat .
jfm
Well-Known Member
The devil is always in the detail so far as the precise law is concerned. Whether the law imposes VAT on reimport depends on whether you get an extension to the 3 year rule, which I don't know becuase it depends on the exact facts, but probably you don't.
I'm only saying that's what the law says. I'm not saying it's equitable to pay VAT twice (there is no equity in tax) nor am I saying you would actually get caught (because this law is incredibly difficult to enforce and enforcing it in your case is definitely not high on HMRC's agenda)
I'm also saying the VAT due on the reimport is charged on the boat and an innocent 3rd party buyer of it from you could, according to the law, face forfeiture of the boat. Again, this is just what the law says and I think it's highly unlikely HMRC would do that
If you were proposing to do all this I'd recommend you sail it back to UK then back to Jersey at 2 years and 364 days.
Sorry, not much is simple in tax these days... Don't shoot the meessenger!
blackhaddock
New Member
if i took my boat to jersey left it there for say 4 years and i myself returned back to the uk.
is the forum saying VAT would be chargable once again on my boats return back to the uk.
is the forum saying VAT would be chargable once again on my boats return back to the uk.
Tranona
Well-Known Member
The rules are in HMRC VAT Notice number 8, not the forum! - think I would have different rules if there was a choice.
Anyhow the Notice is not the actual law, but guidance on how it is implemented by HMRC. The basic principle is that any boats imported into the EU are subject to VAT, but there are a number of exemptions, of which this is one to do with owners taking their boats out and returning. There therefore needs to be rules as to how such exemptions are granted, and the notice is the ground rules.
However, unless you do this sort of thing regularly (and by its nature an exemption is not a regular occurence) it is probably wise to order your affairs so that you stay within it as you will probably only find out how rigorously it is enforced when the time comes to test it!
blackhaddock
New Member
tranona
i am a little concerned,for i plan to move my boat to jersey for a considerable length of time.
whilst in jersey i plan to visit and explore the french coast. i would make yearly visits possibly for a month at a time.
in your opinion,if i return to the eu on this basis would that exempt me from any further VAT charge?
i am a little concerned,for i plan to move my boat to jersey for a considerable length of time.
whilst in jersey i plan to visit and explore the french coast. i would make yearly visits possibly for a month at a time.
in your opinion,if i return to the eu on this basis would that exempt me from any further VAT charge?
Bandit
Well-Known Member
CI Boats that have CI resident owners and sell to other CI owners often "complete" the sale in an EU port to retain the vat paid status.
If a UK resident moors a vat paid boat in the Channel Islands for several years it is only and hour or two to france, retain the mooring charges reciepts to demonstrate that the boat has been in the EU on a regular basis each year.
On the other hand a UK or EU resident cant buy a boat vat free , moor it in the Channel Islandsand visit france or UK (EU) without being liable to paying VAT unles it is on an arms length corporate ownership with charter etc.
The HMRC rules are an ass they are many shades of grey and open to interpretation, it was never intended to pay VAT twice on the same item let alone an expensive boat, the rules in France and Spain are even worse, its a disgrace.
I bought a french registered boat in france, VAT paid , I then came to sell it on and a frenchman wanted to buy it, the previous registration was in Granville and the new purchser lived there, even though the french customs officer was looking at the original registration documents he insisted that VAT liable to be paid again.
If a UK resident moors a vat paid boat in the Channel Islands for several years it is only and hour or two to france, retain the mooring charges reciepts to demonstrate that the boat has been in the EU on a regular basis each year.
On the other hand a UK or EU resident cant buy a boat vat free , moor it in the Channel Islandsand visit france or UK (EU) without being liable to paying VAT unles it is on an arms length corporate ownership with charter etc.
The HMRC rules are an ass they are many shades of grey and open to interpretation, it was never intended to pay VAT twice on the same item let alone an expensive boat, the rules in France and Spain are even worse, its a disgrace.
I bought a french registered boat in france, VAT paid , I then came to sell it on and a frenchman wanted to buy it, the previous registration was in Granville and the new purchser lived there, even though the french customs officer was looking at the original registration documents he insisted that VAT liable to be paid again.
DAKA
Well-Known Member
Never mind a marina bill (although agreed helpful).
Before blackhaddock leaves the UK he will post a C1331 form to HMR&C saying he is on holiday due back .../......../...........
after say a year he goes to france for holidays, when he arrives in France for his holiday he will complete the French C1331 equivalent form (flying a q flag until completed and cleared).
When he leaves france for the CI he will post another French customs form.
when he arrives back in the UK in 5 years time he will complete the copy C1331 form he left 5 years previously and phone the Yachtline on arrival explaining that his holiday for delayed and he went to france on the following dates with copies of the french customs forms.
He then hopes HMR&C yachtline will have a sympathetic view and not charge VAT for a second time.
If they do charge VAT he needs to find a VAT boat import expert to fight his corner.
Anyone who goes to CI for one or two weeks holiday a year really should be completing these forms.
Before blackhaddock leaves the UK he will post a C1331 form to HMR&C saying he is on holiday due back .../......../...........
after say a year he goes to france for holidays, when he arrives in France for his holiday he will complete the French C1331 equivalent form (flying a q flag until completed and cleared).
When he leaves france for the CI he will post another French customs form.
when he arrives back in the UK in 5 years time he will complete the copy C1331 form he left 5 years previously and phone the Yachtline on arrival explaining that his holiday for delayed and he went to france on the following dates with copies of the french customs forms.
He then hopes HMR&C yachtline will have a sympathetic view and not charge VAT for a second time.
If they do charge VAT he needs to find a VAT boat import expert to fight his corner.
Anyone who goes to CI for one or two weeks holiday a year really should be completing these forms.
Last edited:
Tranona
Well-Known Member
Whilst the comments on here are useful for you to get a flavour of the issues involved, it would not be wise to base your actions just on this - or even your reading of the notice. HMRC do have a helpline set up at the request of the RYA to advise individuals on VAT matters. Have never used it so don't know how useful it is, but definitely worth a call - the details are on the RYA site in the section on advice about VAT. This section is worth reading anyway as it explains the basic rules without you having to crawl through the official documents.
As jfm observes, HMRC probably has more important things to do than chase yotties, but it is still best to be prepared.
jfm
Well-Known Member
Tranona i firmly disagree. HMRC telesales operators (which is all you'll get through to) do not give firm advice on complex matters. They will put maybes and other caveats into their advice. They will err on the safe side, viz "yes you may well have to pay VAT when you do that and you should report to the tax office on yout arrival". Occasionally they will get it wrong and you won't be able to hold them to it. Their info lines should only be used for very low grade questions.
gjgm
Well-Known Member
Agreed. All they seem authorised to do is read off the Notices- though at least they are familiar with them, more so perhaps than a layman.So, yes, at one level they are indeed able to help.
Re Daka's point about Q flags and forms. Guernsey and Alderney wanted passport numbers etc; France- I didnt see any Q flags and all the various HM wanted was some cash and a boat name. The only time we saw anything official was a black rib when we were heading for a French warship at 40 knots. Warship got out of my way, anyway.
No one has mentioned one of the main issues with VAT docs, and that is when it comes to selling. I think a lack of docs and a history from CIs might make quite a few people nervous. I am not saying correctly so- and this thread demonstrates the complexities- but I think it would seriously reduce the number of would be buyers.
DAKA
Well-Known Member
Agreed there are a lot of english that believe it is easier to stop over in France a night on the way to the CI as it is the easiest option in not having to fill so many forms in BUT THEY ARE WRONG.
The french do have forms , you have to ask.
The last one I completed was even briefer than the C1331 form , a photo copy of A5 size and torn in half but it was handed to me by the HM office in Cherbourg (on request).
This way runs the risk of spoiling the paper chase and imho blackhaddock should go direct to CI for his extended holiday ( I would be a bit tempted to holiday after two years in weymouth for a week to close off one c1331 and open a new one)
Tranona
Well-Known Member
Can understand your concern about the sort of advice you might get. This probably highlights the key issue - which is how can you get authoritative advice on how officers might treat you at some time in the future (even ignoring the possibility that the rules might change in the meantime). At least if the OP gets directed to the same documents as have been referred to so far that is some form of confirmation about what he has to guard against.
blackhaddock
New Member
thanks for all the input this is most interesting!
i have visited numerous french and belgium ports over the years and i have never filled in any forms whatsoever.
the HM at the port i am visiting merely wants the marina fees as fast as possible.
i have been in cherbourg twice in the last two months and no official paperwork was completed. Only the marina paperwork.
truthfully, how many on this forum fill in these forms and raise the q flag?
i have visited numerous french and belgium ports over the years and i have never filled in any forms whatsoever.
the HM at the port i am visiting merely wants the marina fees as fast as possible.
i have been in cherbourg twice in the last two months and no official paperwork was completed. Only the marina paperwork.
truthfully, how many on this forum fill in these forms and raise the q flag?
z1ppy
Well-Known Member
Well... what a lot of grey there is here!!
it looks unlikely we will proceed with this particular boat at the moment but there have been some very good posts here.
Interesting non customs related point from Gjgm about limiting the number of future buyers as a result of paperwork showing CI details for the time it was there.
the search continues... prepare for more questions!
it looks unlikely we will proceed with this particular boat at the moment but there have been some very good posts here.
Interesting non customs related point from Gjgm about limiting the number of future buyers as a result of paperwork showing CI details for the time it was there.
the search continues... prepare for more questions!
gjgm
Well-Known Member
I've never filled in any forms either > I think Dka has to in order to explain the 4km of rope onboard, and the VAT on that 
DAKA
Well-Known Member
RE raging debate on what use it is speaking to HMR&C telephone staff.....
Pardon the intrusion but in this case you phone the national yacht line specialist team , they may be dimwits but they have been trained in a very narrow area and should easily know the procedure.
The 3 year rule is to allow a sailor to sail round the world.
its not designed to let someone go abroad and get their boat refitted vat free and then bring it back.
VAT is due after exportation or 3 years away but the HMR&C may decide to let you off if its your own boat you have been on an extended holiday .
Now lets get back to the reality away from the letter of the law , in many cases you really want a dimwit to answer your call to yachtline as the question will be
has VAT been paid .
"quote from c1331 form"
and after I have called in on return from CI
you can honestly reply yes without the need to elaborate that the VAT was paid by someone else 10 years ago before it was exported outside the eu.
You really dont want to speak to an experienced 55 year old government servant about to retire after a life times of service and realizing that you have got the boat he deserves.
Pardon the intrusion but in this case you phone the national yacht line specialist team , they may be dimwits but they have been trained in a very narrow area and should easily know the procedure.
The 3 year rule is to allow a sailor to sail round the world.
its not designed to let someone go abroad and get their boat refitted vat free and then bring it back.
VAT is due after exportation or 3 years away but the HMR&C may decide to let you off if its your own boat you have been on an extended holiday .
Now lets get back to the reality away from the letter of the law , in many cases you really want a dimwit to answer your call to yachtline as the question will be
has VAT been paid .
"quote from c1331 form"
and after I have called in on return from CI
you can honestly reply yes without the need to elaborate that the VAT was paid by someone else 10 years ago before it was exported outside the eu.
You really dont want to speak to an experienced 55 year old government servant about to retire after a life times of service and realizing that you have got the boat he deserves.
DAKA
Well-Known Member
RE customs forms in France/Belgium/Holland Q flags
of course you will not have been asked for these because you are going from england to another eu country
Boarder free.
Its only when you go outside the eu that the issues start.
when leaving the CI and staying in cherbourg for a night before coming back to england then you should fly the q flag in france and fill a customs form in (french one).
you have to ask for the form as the french will assume you have just arrived from england .
I fill c1331 form in every time.
if you go with rya or mbm I am confident they will advise you to fill the form in.
I carry spare forms and I hand them to any mates that come across with me.
It usd to be much easier int taht you just posted the form as you left in a customs box but now you have to use royal mail to post it, not always easy to find a post box, could be miles away from a marina and I dont not risk leaving it with marina officers(trust them with cash but not this).
of course you will not have been asked for these because you are going from england to another eu country
Boarder free.
Its only when you go outside the eu that the issues start.
when leaving the CI and staying in cherbourg for a night before coming back to england then you should fly the q flag in france and fill a customs form in (french one).
you have to ask for the form as the french will assume you have just arrived from england .
I fill c1331 form in every time.
if you go with rya or mbm I am confident they will advise you to fill the form in.
I carry spare forms and I hand them to any mates that come across with me.
It usd to be much easier int taht you just posted the form as you left in a customs box but now you have to use royal mail to post it, not always easy to find a post box, could be miles away from a marina and I dont not risk leaving it with marina officers(trust them with cash but not this).
