Buying boats abroad advice needed

[Nicholas123]

I know this was covered the other day but I can't find the thread on VAT.
Can someone tell me if VAT is payable upon importation of a British built boat exported to the continent in the 1970's & never returned until now (that is my supposition at this stage).

Also advice on all the formalities & requirements would be very gratefully appreciated.Do I need formal qualifications to pilot a boat on the other side of the channel?Special insurance?VHF radio licenses & mandatory equipment?
Ships papers & registration?The whole rigamarole.

Regards Nicholas.

 

[Tranona]

If the boat is in the EU then it is just like buying a boat in the UK from a VAT point of view - that is no VAT if you are buying from a private EU resident. If the boat is pre 1985 and in the EU in 1992 it is "deemed VAT paid" anyway.

Once you have bought it you can register on the SSR without any problems, although you may find that the vendor will have to remove the boat from their register. You can insure the boat with a UK insurer, although if you want all risks they may insist on a survey by a UK surveyor. Premiums will be a bit higher if you keep the boat abroad, but not huge. You will need to get a licence for your VHF and re-register the EPIRB if it has one. In general there is no requirement for any specific safety equipment if the boat is registered in the UK. For coastal cruising in Northern Europe you do not usually need any qualifications, unless you venture into some of the inland waterways where you will need an ICC. If you go further afield you may also find an ICC useful.

Full information on all these issues available on the RYA site.

 

[Bobc]

If it's outside the EU though, you will be liable to pay VAT on the value on bringing into the EU.

 

[Boo2]

Can someone tell me if VAT is payable upon importation of a British built boat exported to the continent in the 1970's & never returned until now (that is my supposition at this stage).

No, under those circumstances the boat is "deemed VAT paid". You require proof that the boat was built before 1985 and that it was in use in the EU on 31st Dec 1992 to prove deemed VAT paid status

Also advice on all the formalities & requirements would be very gratefully appreciated.Do I need formal qualifications to pilot a boat on the other side of the channel?Special insurance?VHF radio licenses & mandatory equipment?
Ships papers & registration?The whole rigamarole.

To register on the SSR requires no formal proofs of anything - it is an online form where AFAIK they do no checking whatsoever, costs £25.

AIUI, the some countries may require you to show an ICC (obtainable without exam if you have a UK Day Skipper cert or higher), to cruise on the continental inland waters you may also need a CEVNI (requires an exam which I think is do-able online).

Hth,

Boo2

 

[Nicholas123]

Thanks gents,so it seems I just need proof that it was in the EU on the 31st December 1992.That's great I will bare that in mind.

My next question is a little bit more difficult to answer.I have the chance of this boat but going to view it is problematic to say the least.The person selling the boat on behalf of the owner has said that he would deliver it upon recite of full payment which looks like the only way I am going to get my hands on it.
I can't make my mind up what to do.If I just send the cash I could get ripped off on the other hand if I delay I could miss a wonderful bargain
Are there any safeguards?

 

[colind3782]

I can't make my mind up what to do.If I just send the cash I could get ripped off on the other hand if I delay I could miss a wonderful bargain
Are there any safeguards?

If it looks too good to be true...

Caveat Emptor!

 

[penfold]

Where is the boat and is this person a yacht broker(i.e. does he advertise boats and have a business address etc.)? I'd be very dubious about just transferring money like that, an escrow account would be a lot safer from your point of view.

 

[Tranona]

Would not worry about the "proof" bit - nobody would be the least bit interested in an old boat. Typical proof would be marina bills, record of previous Bills of Sale showing residence of owners.

I would be more concerned about handing over money without seeing the boat. That is what constrains the movement of "cheap" boats from Europe. The cost and hassle of getting them to the UK can outweigh any seeming price advantage. That in turn is the reason why they are "cheap" - in some countries old boats just don't have a local market but for UK buyers it is the cost to buy it and get it here that it is important.

For security you can set up an escrow arrangement by depositing the money with a lawyer for payment when the boat arrives. However you will not have a chance to reject it and the seller would have to agree to such a contract.

You have to weigh up the risks and set against the cost and hassle of mitigating the risk.

 

[Koeketiene]

Thanks gents,so it seems I just need proof that it was in the EU on the 31st December 1992.That's great I will bare that in mind.

My next question is a little bit more difficult to answer.I have the chance of this boat but going to view it is problematic to say the least.The person selling the boat on behalf of the owner has said that he would deliver it upon recite of full payment which looks like the only way I am going to get my hands on it.
I can't make my mind up what to do.If I just send the cash I could get ripped off on the other hand if I delay I could miss a wonderful bargain
Are there any safeguards?

Is the boat in Nigeria?

If an offer looks too good to be true, it usually is

 

[Boo2]

My next question is a little bit more difficult to answer.I have the chance of this boat but going to view it is problematic to say the least.The person selling the boat on behalf of the owner has said that he would deliver it upon recite of full payment which looks like the only way I am going to get my hands on it.
I can't make my mind up what to do.If I just send the cash I could get ripped off on the other hand if I delay I could miss a wonderful bargain

You need to survey any boat you intend to buy which means finding a surveyor either local to the boat or one who is prepared to travel out to it. Before a seller will generally permit a boat to be surveyed, you first agree a price with the seller, and generally send a 10% deposit. The surveyor does his job and sends you a report which you read. You discuss any defects with the seller and perhaps negotiate a discount on the price to take account of them. If you decide not to go ahead on the basis of the survey then the seller should refund your deposit less any costs incurred for things like hoisting the boat out of the water etc.

I would not buy a boat without a survey unless it was at the £500 to £1000 mark, and even then I would want to know it was not going to drown me...

It sounds as if the seller has you entranced by the prospect of a bargain. However, if you have not seen the boat and cannot pay for it without trusting a complete stranger, who it seems is not even the owner of the boat, then all my alarm bells are ringing. I am not trying to offend you, but if you cannot go and view it, and can only buy it unseen without any evidence that the seller even own is then you would be absolutely foolish to send money on spec.

Are there any safeguards?

No, there are no safeguards beyond what you put in place yourself. And if it goes TU, you will be pursuing a court case in a country you do not live in and in a language you do not speak where the defendants may not even exist. So be careful.

Boo2

 

[syfuga]

Buying a boat abroad

This looks very dodgy. How much is the boat, and what or where is it? What condition is it in? Does the seller have any proof of title to the boat, in order to sell it?

If you are dealing with a broker (the intermediary) and they are reputable, (it is unlikely that they would deliver it this way), then you should be able to establish that they are competent and trustworthy. And if they are they will have their own preferred terms and conditions, or you might try to get them to accept the form of contract published by the rya. These are designed to protect both sides.

A contract is normally signed and becomes effective when the agreed deposit is paid, and is normally held by the broker. If you are dealing direct, you should use a lawyer who would hold the deposit on your behalf.

The contract specifies when and how the balance of the purchase price is to be paid, provision for survey, and what happens if the survey reveals undeclared issues.

You should not under any circumstances buy a boat of this age, unseen, and without a very close inspection or survey.

 

[Baggywrinkle]

Thanks gents,so it seems I just need proof that it was in the EU on the 31st December 1992.That's great I will bare that in mind.

My next question is a little bit more difficult to answer.I have the chance of this boat but going to view it is problematic to say the least.The person selling the boat on behalf of the owner has said that he would deliver it upon recite of full payment which looks like the only way I am going to get my hands on it.
I can't make my mind up what to do.If I just send the cash I could get ripped off on the other hand if I delay I could miss a wonderful bargain
Are there any safeguards?

You need to be brutally honest with yourself. This doesn't sound normal behaviour for a legitimate seller - you MUST see the boat and talk to the owners, satisfy yourself that it is 100% genuine before parting with any money.

If the seller runs with your money, it's back to square one and the dream is gone.

If the boat is a wreck and you don't survey it before buying then the dream becomes a nightmare.

If you walk away then the dream may come true next month or next year ... but there is always another boat.

 

[Nicholas123]

Thanks for all your responses gents I do appreciate it.Actually it is the seller that is insisting that I see the boat.I want to avoid all that because frankly at the moment I don't even have a passport & the whole thing would be quite an ordeal.I had managed to talk him into delivering it because it requires work having been neglected for quite some time & a trip up the channel at the moment with my experience so far & all factors taken into consideration looks horrendous.
I think I should be able to get a pretty good idea of it's condition through photo's some of which I have already received & his opinion.Then when he arrives in this country I would carry out a survey of my own before handing over the cash.He already has stated that the amount I have offered would be exceptable but he seems to be getting cold feet.

 

[Bosun Higgs]

You require proof that the boat was built before 1985 and that it was in use in the EU on 31st Dec 1992 to prove deemed VAT paid status

This needs checking- (I'm not sure how reliable my memory is) - but one reason there is so much aggro about vat on British boats is that our registration system does not prove either ownership or vat status. But many continental countries registration does prove that the boat is vat paid. So check in the country where you are buying.

 

[Tranona]

This needs checking- (I'm not sure how reliable my memory is) - but one reason there is so much aggro about vat on British boats is that our registration system does not prove either ownership or vat status. But many continental countries registration does prove that the boat is vat paid. So check in the country where you are buying.

The basic statement is correct, and applies across the EU. The question of evidence is different. In the UK because VAT on boats long predates 1992 and there was no requirement to keep any records, HMRC set out just some basic requirements for evidence. You are, however right in that some countries, proof of VAT is a requirement of registration, but in those cases customs would have issued a certificate for pre 1992 boats without necessarily seeing hard "evidence", just to make them "legal". HMRC used to do the same here if you had the simple evidence required. That was stopped some time ago when they realised it was not evidence at all. In general they are not interested in old boats as there is no offence the owner can have committed by not having "evidence" Where they are interested is in boats brought in from outside the EU and boats owned at some point by VAT registered entities as it is in these circumstances VAT offences could have been committed.

 

[jordanbasset]

Thanks for all your responses gents I do appreciate it.Actually it is the seller that is insisting that I see the boat.I want to avoid all that because frankly at the moment I don't even have a passport & the whole thing would be quite an ordeal.I had managed to talk him into delivering it because it requires work having been neglected for quite some time & a trip up the channel at the moment with my experience so far & all factors taken into consideration looks horrendous.
I think I should be able to get a pretty good idea of it's condition through photo's some of which I have already received & his opinion.Then when he arrives in this country I would carry out a survey of my own before handing over the cash.He already has stated that the amount I have offered would be exceptable but he seems to be getting cold feet.

From this and your previous posts this is wrong in so many ways it is hard to know where to start.
Firstly if I was selling a boat there is no way I would deliver it to some one who then wants a survey on it before parting with any cash.
Then the boat needs work and has been neglected for some time and it's going to be taken up the channel in winter.
You need to decide if you want this boat, if you do get over an look at it or get a surveyor to survey it in situ. But unless this boat is very special I would concentrate on something I can see.
Do not mean to be blunt and hope all goes well with whatever you decide

 

[Boo2]

Thanks for all your responses gents I do appreciate it.Actually it is the seller that is insisting that I see the boat.I want to avoid all that because frankly at the moment I don't even have a passport & the whole thing would be quite an ordeal.

If getting a passport constitutes "an ordeal" for you then you most certainly don't want to buy a boat situated any distance away, let alone abroad. Trust me, I know.

I think I should be able to get a pretty good idea of it's condition through photo's some of which I have already received & his opinion.

You cannot gain an idea of a boat's condition by looking at photos. And as for relying on the sellers' opinion... !

He already has stated that the amount I have offered would be exceptable but he seems to be getting cold feet.

If I were facing the position of having to bring a boat into the UK from abroad only to have the prospective buyer survey and possibly reject it I would have cold feet too. How much will it cost him in time and money to do that ? I brought my boat down from Pwllheli which took 6 days and cost me £300 (odd) in diesel, £800 for a skipper, £100 for a hire car and I don't know how much in mooring fees, food etc. Why would a complete stranger gamble a sum like that on the offchance that someone who can't be *rsed even to buy a passport will pay for it when he gets it here ?

I would be suggesting this post was a troll if I didn't prefer the more obvious alternative...

Boo2

 

[itspaul]

Why would a complete stranger gamble a sum like that on the offchance that someone who can't be *rsed even to buy a passport will pay for it when he gets it here ?

+1

 

[Nicholas123]

If getting a passport constitutes "an ordeal" for you then you most certainly don't want to buy a boat situated any distance away, let alone abroad. Trust me, I know.

I did'nt say that it was just getting the passport that constitutes an ordeal you have taken my words out of context.There is a lot more to it than that.

 

[Bosun Higgs]

Thanks gents,so it seems I just need proof that it was in the EU on the 31st December 1992.That's great I will bare that in mind.

My next question is a little bit more difficult to answer.I have the chance of this boat but going to view it is problematic to say the least.The person selling the boat on behalf of the owner has said that he would deliver it upon recite of full payment which looks like the only way I am going to get my hands on it.
I can't make my mind up what to do.If I just send the cash I could get ripped off on the other hand if I delay I could miss a wonderful bargain
Are there any safeguards?

Unless you are talking a trivial amount of money you are happy to lose, dont do it! You are asking for trouble