Buying boat private sale deposit wont refund

[henryf]

Exactly.

From what I can deduce from the drip fed info, I have plenty of sympathy for the seller and I doubt there is a scam. Seller advertises boat; guy agrees to buy it and pays deposit; guy then calls and announces that he intends to renege on the deal; seller says well that’s bad and threatens to retain deposit. Remind me what the seller has done wrong at this point?

In law the buyer can claim and seller should pay back some of the deposit because the seller may only keep an amount to offset his losses, which as yet he probably can’t quantify. So seller is possibly a bit naughty on that point. But that’s all, and doesn’t point (in my view) to a scam.

As more info is drip fed the likelihood of a scam is decreasing but I would still tread with caution. I know scams very well and how they "feel". The apparent carefree nature of the re-listing does concern me but we don't have all the facts. Were it you or I we would contact the buyer to establish our mutual positions before moving forwards and re-listing.

The vendor is potentially in a lot of bother if he sells the boat to someone else and the original buyer rocks up with the balance of payment is he not?

Henry

 

[Jpotts]

I have read the individual emails that went back and forth and I can tell from those that the guy has figured out my relatives situation, recognized he’s an old guy with not a whole lot of funds and taken him to the cleaners with that deposit in the hope that he wouldn’t be able to go through with the purchase.

I recognize my relative was naive and in fact i think it’s one of the most stupid things I have ever heard someone doing, sending that much money without physically seeing something is crazy but old people think it’s okay to send money and there won’t be any hassle because in their experience fraud and scams weren’t as big a thing. He just genuinely didn’t know any better. My relative has bought many boats through the exact same website in his life and has never experienced this.

The seller has been rude, pushy and point blank awful with me relative at times and had I seen the very first few emails that went between the two I never would have given the seller even a second look. Pretty obvious to me why the guy is struggling to sell his boat if that’s the way he goes about selling things.

I have told my relative I felt the best way he could do it now is to go down personally to see it and complete the transaction but he felt he isn’t able for a journey like that right now as a lot of things have gone on at home (again more reason he shouldn’t have been so hasty).

Surely at some point human decency has to come in to play and the buyer should recognize he hasn’t genuinely been purposely ****ed around and he should recognize that 19,000 isn’t an acceptable amount of money to hold from someone when he only had to take the advert down for a matter of a week on a website that I now costs very little to advertise on.

 

[jimmy_the_builder]

The seller is Italian. Cultural differences in communication styles might have something to do with your interpretation of the pushiness of the transaction.

Anyway, as previously said by others, your sensible way out here is to complete the transaction face to face pdq before the seller goes and sells the boat cheaply to someone else, subsidised by your deposit.

Your relative's reluctance to travel to Devon in order to rescue his £20k is hard to understand, frankly - Flybe from Edinburgh to Exeter, rent car, 45 mins/20 miles drive to Shaldon. You'd be there in half a day. So, unless you're earning more than £40k/day, I'd be getting on the plane.

 

[longjohnsilver]

The seller is Italian. Cultural differences in communication styles might have something to do with your interpretation of the pushiness of the transaction.

Anyway, as previously said by others, your sensible way out here is to complete the transaction face to face pdq before the seller goes and sells the boat cheaply to someone else, subsidised by your deposit.

Your relative's reluctance to travel to Devon in order to rescue his £20k is hard to understand, frankly - Flybe from Edinburgh to Exeter, rent car, 45 mins/20 miles drive to Shaldon. You'd be there in half a day. So, unless you're earning more than £40k/day, I'd be getting on the plane.

Having just sold one of my fleet I’m tempted ;-)

 

[LeeME3]

Without wishing to make judgement on all the chat before...if he does decide to find the balance and proceed with the purchase, for the love of God make sure at least THAT element of it is covered by a written signed and valid contract! Stating the obvious but so far the obvious hasn't happened very much! Oh, darn, that'll be passing judgement then... Anyway, I hope it all works out for buyer and seller.

 

[Jim@sea]

Re: Buying boat private sale deposit return refusal

Your relative told the seller that he rest of the money would be delayed, that way the seller would have had to keep hold of the boat and if he got fed up with waiting he would have had to offer the deposit back in order to sell it again. Perhaps as it was only a phone call between the buyer and the seller which was misconstrued, which lead the seller to assume that your relative would be buying it.
Considering your relative will lose £25,000 I would be inclined to find another £25,000 and buy it by adding the deposit to the £25k after all he must have thought it was worth £50,000 in the first place.

 

[longjohnsilver]

I have read the individual emails that went back and forth and I can tell from those that the guy has figured out my relatives situation, recognized he’s an old guy with not a whole lot of funds and taken him to the cleaners with that deposit in the hope that he wouldn’t be able to go through with the purchase.

I recognize my relative was naive and in fact i think it’s one of the most stupid things I have ever heard someone doing, sending that much money without physically seeing something is crazy but old people think it’s okay to send money and there won’t be any hassle because in their experience fraud and scams weren’t as big a thing. He just genuinely didn’t know any better. My relative has bought many boats through the exact same website in his life and has never experienced this.

The seller has been rude, pushy and point blank awful with me relative at times and had I seen the very first few emails that went between the two I never would have given the seller even a second look. Pretty obvious to me why the guy is struggling to sell his boat if that’s the way he goes about selling things.

I have told my relative I felt the best way he could do it now is to go down personally to see it and complete the transaction but he felt he isn’t able for a journey like that right now as a lot of things have gone on at home (again more reason he shouldn’t have been so hasty).

Surely at some point human decency has to come in to play and the buyer should recognize he hasn’t genuinely been purposely ****ed around and he should recognize that 19,000 isn’t an acceptable amount of money to hold from someone when he only had to take the advert down for a matter of a week on a website that I now costs very little to advertise on.

Is it now a £19,000 deposit and not the £20k mentioned many times previously? I’m now a little confused, seems the boat does actually exist, so doesn’t look like a typical scam, all we are missing is a timeline with what was agreed and when, and the other side of the story from the vendor. That would make interesting reading.

 

[jimmy_the_builder]

Is it now a £19,000 deposit and not the £20k mentioned many times previously? I’m now a little confused, seems the boat does actually exist, so doesn’t look like a typical scam, all we are missing is a timeline with what was agreed and when, and the other side of the story from the vendor. That would make interesting reading.

I don't know this, but I am guessing that it was a £20k deposit, and the OP is allowing £1k in readvertising and other costs, and is thus suggesting that the seller should refund £19k. But as I say, I don't know this, just post g+t supposition on my part ...

 

[jfm]

The vendor is potentially in a lot of bother if he sells the boat to someone else and the original buyer rocks up with the balance of payment is he not?

Nope. Seller still owns the boat and is free to sell it. That would be true even if buyer had not announced intention to renege on the deal, but is x2 true when buyer has reneged.

 

[jfm]

Before the seller even thought it decent to respond to the buyers emails saying even as little as oh that’s a shame you can no longer buy but deposit is nonrefundable, he readvertised the boat without a single mention to the buyer of why.

He had also asked the buyer to send a deposit of 50% which by the sounds of what people have been saying on here is an reasonable amount to ask from someone. He also waited until the payment had registered in his account before mentioning it is fully nonrefundable. I realize a lot of people are of the opinion that deposits are always nonrefundable but that is not my experience or my families experience when buying cars and such. If my relative would have known it was nonrefundable before sending the money, I guarantee he would not have sent that money without knowing 110% that his own boat would sell.

So yeah I think a good few things the seller did was wrong. Refusing to communicate alone, when engaged in a transaction is bad enough.

You seem to have lost all objectivity. Dealing with your points above separately:
1. Put yourself in a seller’s shoes. If I’m a seller and agree a deal, then buyer tells me he is reneging, why on earth do I have to write “what a shame” to the reneger and why do I need to tell him I’m readvertising? I absolutely wouldn’t. He can FRO.
2. Asking for 50% deposit is cheeky but the buyer agreed and paid. No one forced him to. I dont see how you condemn seller so much here.
3. Then as regards non refundability of deposit, it doesn’t matter that seller says it is non refundable; what matters is the actual law. You keep believing the idea that deposits can be non refundable but they are not. The legal position has been stated several times above so your relative should reply along those lines.
4. You write “I guarantee he would not have sent that money without knowing 110% that his own boat would sell.”. Well, first, that is exactly what he did. And second, why should seller care, and perhaps seller wasn’t even aware of the other boat situation when he made the deal

As said above, I have plenty of sympathy for seller here. Imagine if someone made a post on here saying “ Guy agreed to buy my boat, paid deposit, then emailed saying he wouldn’t complete the deal”. Everyone would reply “what a cheek! Breaking his word; welching on a deal! Keep the deposit for now to cover your losses and readvertise it fast because winter is coming”.

Your relative made a mistake by doing the new boat deal before selling old one. Pretty simple analysis that one- he knowingly took a risk and it didn’t pay off. He is clearly not destitute and he should man up and take the consequences of his mistake, not expect others to bail him out.

 

[henryf]

Nope. Seller still owns the boat and is free to sell it. That would be true even if buyer had not announced intention to renege on the deal, but is x2 true when buyer has reneged.

How interesting, and strange. So the vendor can at any point return any monies paid even after saying monies received are non refundable, a part payment etc. Doesn't matter if buyer makes no noises indicating they are not going to be able to complete. What on earth are part payments & deposits for then?

I know a car dealer who got substantial judgement against him for returning a customers deposit and selling the car elsewhere. Ironically the original buyer sidestepped potential disaster as the car wasn't all it purported to be and the dealer returned the money because he knew it wasn't right for the bloke who thought he was buying a 100% kosher vehicle.

What a convoluted web contract law is. Here's me thinking a handshake and a man's word still counts for something. What terrible times we live in......

 

[jfm]

So the vendor can at any point return any monies paid even after saying monies received are non refundable, a part payment etc. .....

Hang in that’s not what I said. Property/title/ownership in a car or non part 1 boat passes on delivery/handover, not on entering into a contract to sell it. The contract ( in this case) is merely a promise to hand over ownership in the future, and not a handing over of ownership now.
Thus, the seller still owns it,so he can sell to someone else. Not honourable behaviour, but the law doesn’t prohibit this for simple chattels like cars and boats.
Of course he would be in breach of the contract, which has consequences but is not an offence and is not prohibited by law.
He would be liable to pay the buyer’s losses arising from the breach. But if the car were a ubiquitous Mondeo type thing the buyer’s losses would be zero if the misbehaving seller returns the deposit. If it were a faberge egg things could be different
I’m referring here only to UK law. Other rules apply in other countries.

 

[MapisM]

How interesting, and strange.

+1.
Down here, unless agreed otherwise, if the seller withdraws from his commitment, he/she must refund TWICE the amount of the deposit.
Which btw is one reason why, as a buyer, I normally tend to prefer a rather substantial deposit.
After a bit of due diligence consistent with the deal amount of course - and nowhere near 50% anyhow, at least for a boat!

PS for jfm: I wrote the above before reading your further explanations, and if UK law works as you describe, I take your word for it, obviously.
Still, that strikes me as a bit unfair. What's the whole point of paying anything in advance, then?

 

[tillergirl]

+1.
What's the whole point of paying anything in advance, then?

A very good question (and a very interesting thread). I am selling and just lost a buyer at the deposit/paperwork stage. What actually does the deposit do?

My attitude would have been at the deposit stage, the advert would still run and I would show her anyone else around BUT I would tell the viewer that she was under offer AND I would not accept a higher offer. That's my personal view but I don't know the law. I would still want the advert to run because if the buyer backs out - at say the survey stage - I would want to still hang on anyone who had shown interest. If the buyer pulled out for no reason, what is my position over the deposit (I assumed the deposit was to confirm an offer subject, for example, subject to survey and formed the basis of a contract). What is the responsibility of the buyer? Should the holding of a deposit time limited?

I recently bought a 'new' boat in Scotland. I made an offer, the offer was accepted. A deposit was declined being said 'not necessary' even though another viewer was interested to see the boat. Paperwork sent, money paid. All rather pleasant.

 

[Lloydroberts]

As is yours. First does he still want the boat. No need to go all legal and paperwork yet and throw money at solicitors. Get the extra £20K if you can, Arrange with the seller to travel to the boat with friends with the means to pay the remaining £20k, look at the boat, establish title and if he still wants it pay for it and 'take it away' or secure it as his. All might work out ok before you throw money at third parties.

I would rather have a boat for £40K than throw money at solicitors. £20K soon disappears at the rate of £200 plus VAT an hour

You are quite correct, it is my opinion......considering the next step based on legalities and not taking pals along in case it needed to get physical.
one wrong sentence or action could be viewed as demanding money with menaces or blackmail.
I did say consider a chat with a solicitor......nothing about employing one at the moment.

 

[longjohnsilver]

Now a few months on, I wonder if the sale went ahead.

It would be good if the OP completed the story after asking for, and receiving lots of advice.

 

[Bigplumbs]

I think after some of the advice he received he is probably lying low.

 

[MrB]

He hasn't logged in for a month, shame, it would be nice to know if it all worked out in the end.

 

[Jpotts]

The sale went through with a lot of help from the guy who did the survey. Probably aged my relative about 20 years but his lesson learned is you don't send money to someone you do not know and aren't sure you can trust. At the same time you do not hand over such a large fee without knowing your own sale will finalize.

I still stand by what I said reading the emails the guy did not go about his business well and was very pushy at every step. I know you all must live in a dog eat dog world where it is every man for himself but where my relative is from that is not typically how people do business.

Thanks all for your help with this matter.

 

[jfm]

The sale went through with a lot of help from the guy who did the survey. Probably aged my relative about 20 years but his lesson learned is you don't send money to someone you do not know and aren't sure you can trust. At the same time you do not hand over such a large fee without knowing your own sale will finalize.

I still stand by what I said reading the emails the guy did not go about his business well and was very pushy at every step. I know you all must live in a dog eat dog world where it is every man for himself but where my relative is from that is not typically how people do business.

Thanks all for your help with this matter.

I still find this amazing. Your relative welched on a deal - how dishonourable - and then you question the trustworthiness of the seller. We may live in a dog eat dog world here but at least we keep to our word.