Buying boat private sale deposit wont refund

[Jpotts]

Hi, an old relative recently agreed to put a deposit down on a boat through a private sale totalling nearly 50% of the entire value of the boat. He was making this purchase based on selling his old boat, however that fell through to no fault of his own. He emailed the seller asking to refund the deposit but the seller refuses to respond or answer his phone. The seller only told my relative that the deposit was nonrefundable after the money had been transferred.

Should he be entitled to his deposit back? If so what are the avenues to go down to get the deposit back if the seller won’t answer?

Thanks

 

[Jpotts]

Buying boat private sale deposit return refusal

Hi, an elderly relative of mine just recently put down a deposit to buy a boat through private sale of nearly 50% of the boats value. After the seller received the sum of money for the deposit in his bank account he then announced that the deposit was nonrefundable. This was to be based on the sale of his old boat, however the sale of the old boat fell through and he had to email the seller notifying him that he could no long buy the boat and that he would like the deposit refunded. He has had no response since and the seller has since readvertised the boat. Surely my relative is entitled to his deposit back since he was only notified of it being nonrefundable after he transferred the deposit money? Any help on this would be great.

Thanks.

 

[jimmy_the_builder]

Re: Buying boat private sale deposit return refusal

What did the contract say?

 

[SEARANGER ANCASTER]

Re: Buying boat private sale deposit return refusal

i wouldnt think so no. A deposit is so that no-one else comes along and buys it. Been in this situation with cars and tbh have always given deposit back but thats not really what a deposit is for although 50% was a sizeable deposit if relying on sale of other boat and not something I would have done.

 

[prv]

Re: Buying boat private sale deposit return refusal

Deposits are not normally refundable just because the buyer has decided not to buy the boat after all, for a reason unconnected with the boat. If they were, what would be the point?

50% is an absurdly large deposit, especially when there's a known reason that the sale might not complete.

It's unfortunate, but I think your relative has been naive and foolish. One might hope that the seller might give back the money out of good will if the abortive sale hasn't cost him any money or much inconvenience, but unless they agreed that the deposit was conditional then I don't see that he has to.

Pete

 

[ashtead]

Re: Buying boat private sale deposit return refusal

In the absence of any written contract it would be best to have the elderly relative's recollection of the sale process written down now as parties often forget with the passage of time. What evidence exists in absence of a written contract to show parties intentions ?

 

[longjohnsilver]

Re: Buying boat private sale deposit return refusal

What did the contract say?

I suspect from what the op say, there wasn’t one.

It would also be useful to know how much is involved.

 

[MapisM]

Re: Buying boat private sale deposit return refusal

Well, assuming/hoping that the boat can easily be sold for more than half of the price which was agreed, your relative is better off finalizing the sale regardless of whether he can keep her or not, I reckon...

 

[Grubble]

Re: Buying boat private sale deposit return refusal

Deposits are not normally refundable just because the buyer has decided not to buy the boat after all, for a reason unconnected with the boat. If they were, what would be the point?

50% is an absurdly large deposit, especially when there's a known reason that the sale might not complete.

It's unfortunate, but I think your relative has been naive and foolish. One might hope that the seller might give back the money out of good will if the abortive sale hasn't cost him any money or much inconvenience, but unless they agreed that the deposit was conditional then I don't see that he has to.

Pete

I think you will find it is the other way around - deposits are normally refundable, less any costs the seller has incurred as a result of the sale falling through. The seller can't just keep the deposit and the boat. The fact that the seller has re-advertised the boat suggest he has accepted that the buyer has pulled out and repudiated the contract and as a result needs to return the deposit, less any costs such as storage and advertising.

Of course the exact situation depends on what the contract says (if they signed one) and also where in the world the buyer and seller are.

 

[henryf]

Re: Buying boat private sale deposit return refusal

I will bow to superior knowledge but my understanding is the payment could be taken 2 ways.

Deposit. Would normally be refunded less any costs incurred and these can mount up. Preparation, advertising, storage, insurance, turning people away who then assume the item is sold when re-advertised. Sometimes you don't know the full cost until it sells second time round.

Part payment. You have entered into a contract to buy the item and part paid for it. The. Vendor could chase you for the balance of payment.

This works 2 ways, if you deposit or part pay for something and the seller decides they can get more money elsewhere you are entitled to chase them for any additional costs in buying the identical item elsewhere. I've seen judgement against a foolish car dealer and we used it when Nissan realised they were useless and shouldn't have sold us a new pick up for the price they agreed.

Without any contract things get messy. Your relative says he paid a deposit, the vendor says he or she received part payment. The fairest solution is to wait for the boat to sell and then get balance of deposit back less any costs or shortcomings. This does of course rely on the vendor being of good character which may not be the case.

Henry

Just to add: What are the sums involved here ?

 

[Cactus Sailing]

Re: Buying boat private sale deposit return refusal

Hi, an elderly relative of mine just recently put down a deposit to buy a boat through private sale of nearly 50% of the boats value. After the seller received the sum of money for the deposit in his bank account he then announced that the deposit was nonrefundable. This was to be based on the sale of his old boat, however the sale of the old boat fell through and he had to email the seller notifying him that he could no long buy the boat and that he would like the deposit refunded. He has had no response since and the seller has since readvertised the boat. Surely my relative is entitled to his deposit back since he was only notified of it being nonrefundable after he transferred the deposit money? Any help on this would be great.

Thanks.

why was it 50%?

and are we talking 50% of £5k or 50% of a £100k+ boat price?

A Deposit is only normally an amount to cover reasonable costs for things like, Storage up to final transaction, waiting time, and relisting fees (advertising etc).

if the boat was indeed £100k list price one could argue 50% was unreasonable & grossly unfair after all a verbal contract is a contract, and an unreasonable contract is null and void even if you signed it in blood 20 times initialled every page and notarised it.

50% would also be seen as unreasonable in the law book if indeed you were lucky enough to get that far and they need to refund it minus costs to advertise and costs of storage during the "holding time"

of course law is different in different countries, verbal contracts are difficult to prove so yeah... 50% of what? because getting your money back via legal means would be difficult and again costly unless you represented yourself.

 

[Jpotts]

Re: Buying boat private sale deposit return refusal

why was it 50%?

and are we talking 50% of £5k or 50% of a £100k+ boat price?

A Deposit is only normally an amount to cover reasonable costs for things like, Storage up to final transaction, waiting time, and relisting fees (advertising etc).

if the boat was indeed £100k list price one could argue 50% was unreasonable & grossly unfair after all a verbal contract is a contract, and an unreasonable contract is null and void even if you signed it in blood 20 times initialled every page and notarised it.

50% would also be seen as unreasonable in the law book if indeed you were lucky enough to get that far and they need to refund it minus costs to advertise and costs of storage during the "holding time"

of course law is different in different countries, verbal contracts are difficult to prove so yeah... 50% of what? because getting your money back via legal means would be difficult and again costly unless you represented yourself.

The sale was going to be 50,000 so the deposit was a very large sum of money. He was very naive to ever send money without asking more or asking to have a contract wrote up. However I don’t feel from my own experience of buying and selling cars that I ever thought deposits were nonrefundable and the fact he was only notified that it was nonrefundable after the seller had received the money seems like the seller nearly had no want to sell to him and only wanted the deposit money.

Without a single word from the seller after my relative notified him he couldn’t buy, the boat was then readvertised while the seller still had my relatives money. I saw the emails between the two and to me it looked like the guy basically tricked him knowing he was older into rushing a deposit on the boat.

He’s an old man so knows very little about buying and selling through a website and possible issues involved with private sales.

 

[PCUK]

I don't know the legal position but the Small Claims Court is fairly painless.

 

[Tranona]

I don't know the legal position but the Small Claims Court is fairly painless.

But you can only go there if you have a strong legal case. Not necessarily painless. The process of submitting a case is simple and straightforward, but getting a judgement and enforcing it is not necessarily easy, especially in this case as there seems to be so little information about what the agreement was. If it is not written or reliably witnessed it ends up as one party's word against the other.

 

[Jpotts]

But you can only go there if you have a strong legal case. Not necessarily painless. The process of submitting a case is simple and straightforward, but getting a judgement and enforcing it is not necessarily easy, especially in this case as there seems to be so little information about what the agreement was. If it is not written or reliably witnessed it ends up as one party's word against the other.

All communication was done via email and the seller stated that they would agree a deposit amount but with no mention of this being nonrefundable until after he had received it. In the initial emails he mention an amount would be agreed upon and a length of time would be agreed upon for the validity of the deposit on how long he would hold the boat for. There was no specific time ever agreed in the end.

 

[Cactus Sailing]

I don't know the legal position but the Small Claims Court is fairly painless.

its very easy yes, just the judgement will be based on facts, if its all verbal contracts then its one word vs another which they would unlikely rule on

of course if the money was paid via a reputable manor and not cash then its traceable, and if 50% is a significant sum over and above the reasonable costs to re-advertise you can start compiling evidence such as boat adverts, phone records of calls to the seller etc. but you need a strong case to actually get to the small claims court & then they should rule in the OPs favour as a 50% deposit is unreasonable to hold.

but we don't know all the info, if the boat cost £3,000 then £1500 could be reasonable costs considering perhaps marina fees etc.

 

[jrudge]

This is business to consumer, not consumer to consumer

https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...de-for-consumers/cancelling-goods-or-services

If you google it there are lots and lots of situations related to consumer to consumer car sales, but the views are just like on here - yes, no, it depends. I could not find any definitive answer or quote of the law.

If the sum is material ( we dont know) then I would small claims it regardless for a sum less your estimate of his costs ( advertising, berthing etc) for a reasonable period to allow for sale - ie your estimate of his losses.

They can only say no!

the B 2 C version I would suggest would carry some precedent if you went to court.

 

[Jpotts]

It won’t let me respond for some reason but amount for deposit was £20000

 

[jimmy_the_builder]

It won’t let me respond for some reason but amount for deposit was £20000

Is there a written contract or was this all entirely verbal?

Edit: I see from your replies above that there is no written contract, just an exchange of emails. I think you (or more accurately, your relative) need to take professional advice at this point.

 

[BruceK]

Untasteful as this is are you sure your parents haven't been stung in a scam?