Buying a boat do you make checks on ownership

W

Wansworth

Well-Known Member
Joined
8 May 2003
Messages
39,537
Location
SPAIN,Galicia
Visit site
Here in Spain it seems You should check that the owner who is selling is the rightful owner,so to speak.I have used the RYA bill of sale in the Uk and must admit It didn’t occure to me the seller was not the owner
 
The broker is responsible for that but may rely on some small print so it is wise to be able to see and have all the previous bills of sale but how you can check if there is an outstanding debt I don't know could be a mortgage, bank loan secured on the boat, repair bill or marina fees none of which are evident until the bailiff knocks on your door or hatch cover.
 
Yes, very first thing you do once you view the boat. In the UK the Bill of Dale is the key document, particularly for an unregistered boat. Think you will find, though in Spain that the state does it all for you through the compulsory registration system.
 
Fr J Hackett said:
The broker is responsible for that but may rely on some small print so it is wise to be able to see and have all the previous bills of sale but how you can check if there is an outstanding debt I don't know could be a mortgage, bank loan secured on the boat, repair bill or marina fees none of which are evident until the bailiff knocks on your door or hatch cover.
Click to expand...
That is a bit over dramatic. While it is important to check that there are no outstanding yard bills, it is highly unlikely that a mortgage will be held over the boat if it is not registered on Part 1. Equally vert rare that any debt would be enforced against a new owner who bought in good faith. The previous owner would be pursued first as enforcement against the boat is a really long and tortuous process.

Not a reason for not doing a thorough check and usually problems like this show up pretty quickly once you start asking the right questions.
 
Tranona said:
That is a bit over dramatic. While it is important to check that there are no outstanding yard bills, it is highly unlikely that a mortgage will be held over the boat if it is not registered on Part 1. Equally vert rare that any debt would be enforced against a new owner who bought in good faith. The previous owner would be pursued first as enforcement against the boat is a really long and tortuous process.

Not a reason for not doing a thorough check and usually problems like this show up pretty quickly once you start asking the right questions.
Click to expand...

When I sold my last boat and ended up in a dispute with the marina over a clause in the berthing contract that claimed a % of the selling price when I refused to pay they threatened to put a lien on the boat which I found out was relatively easy for them to do. I paid under duress to free the boat of encumbrance and took them to court over it they conceded the day before we were due in court and paid me the sum plus interest and costs.
It is perfectly possible to have a marine mortgage without being part1 registered, I have done so. Usually debts are secured against the boat ie secured bank loans and marine mortgages. Yards will impound the boat under a lien.
None of this will probably apply yo Wansworth but in the UK it most certainly would.
 
Fr J Hackett said:
When I sold my last boat and ended up in a dispute with the marina over a clause in the berthing contract that claimed a % of the selling price when I refused to pay they threatened to put a lien on the boat which I found out was relatively easy for them to do. I paid under duress to free the boat of encumbrance and took them to court over it they conceded the day before we were due in court and paid me the sum plus interest and costs.
It is perfectly possible to have a marine mortgage without being part1 registered, I have done so. Usually debts are secured against the boat ie secured bank loans and marine mortgages. Yards will impound the boat under a lien.
None of this will probably apply yo Wansworth but in the UK it most certainly would.
Click to expand...
Yes, all that is possible but highly unlikely. The marina commission is hopefully a thing of the past as courts have found against this as an unfair contract term and the BMF has "encouraged" members to remove that term from their agreements.

As for mortgages on unregistered boats - yes it is possible, but doubt that any respectable lender would do it as they are very difficult to enforce. More common is for the bank to hold the papers which would come to light very quickly if the potential buyer asks to see the originals before committing. While liens are possible, again the difficulty and expense to get a court order makes this really a very last resort.

The point I was making is that if you ask the right questions (well covered in the RYA book on buying and selling boats) these sorts of things come to light very quickly. Being aware is 99% of the battle won. Of course dealer through a reputable broker means somebody else professionally does this for you.
 
Tranona said:
Yes, all that is possible but highly unlikely. The marina commission is hopefully a thing of the past as courts have found against this as an unfair contract term and the BMF has "encouraged" members to remove that term from their agreements.

As for mortgages on unregistered boats - yes it is possible, but doubt that any respectable lender would do it as they are very difficult to enforce. More common is for the bank to hold the papers which would come to light very quickly if the potential buyer asks to see the originals before committing. While liens are possible, again the difficulty and expense to get a court order makes this really a very last resort.

The point I was making is that if you ask the right questions (well covered in the RYA book on buying and selling boats) these sorts of things come to light very quickly. Being aware is 99% of the battle won. Of course dealer through a reputable broker means somebody else professionally does this for you.
Click to expand...

Yes it's all possible which I know from personal experience. As we have both said a reputable broker should sort it all out though.
 
If you sell privately using the RYA procedure you are required to furnish the buyer with the original of all previous Bills of Sale prior to completion, you are also expected to certify that you are the owner of the boat. In previous instances where I purchased through a broker this history trail never reached me but I suppose the broker satified himself thhat he was entitled to offer what he was selling.
 
Quandary said:
If you sell privately using the RYA procedure you are required to furnish the buyer with the original of all previous Bills of Sale prior to completion, you are also expected to certify that you are the owner of the boat. In previous instances where I purchased through a broker this history trail never reached me but I suppose the broker satified himself thhat he was entitled to offer what he was selling.
Click to expand...
I've posted about this previously but when I bought my present boat the idiot broker sent me a bill of sale signed by a sole vendor and when I asked for the previous bills of sale I found that the boat had previously been purchased jointly by a couple. Broker tried to bullshit me and then ignore me until I involved his trade association and started a formal complaint procedure.
 
Irish Rover said:
I've posted about this previously but when I bought my present boat the idiot broker sent me a bill of sale signed by a sole vendor and when I asked for the previous bills of sale I found that the boat had previously been purchased jointly by a couple. Broker tried to bullshit me and then ignore me until I involved his trade association and started a formal complaint procedure.
Click to expand...
Would that been a broker in Greece ? Maybe lefkas
 
A word of caution.

In Britain, the entry in the Register Book is the title* of a vessel registered under Part One. A Transcript of the Register is evidence of that title at the time that the Transcript is made. A Certificate of Registry is evidence of registration but it is not in itself evidence of title.

This is why you should always insist on a current Transcript as part of the documentation provided at a sale closing for a boat on the Part One Register, and why a reputable yacht broker will always provide one.

In English law, maritime liens will survive a sale for value without notice, and in English law these are liens for:

1.Salvage
2. Unpaid wages due to the crew
3. Damage done by the vessel
4. Bottomry (forget about this one)
The order stated is the order of priority.

In English law, other claims do not give rise to a maritime lien, and do not survive sale, but a ship repairer acquires a possessory lien in respect of work and storage done and not paid for and this survives a sale for value without notice and may be enforced against the purchaser.

Be extremely careful in the USA, where ALL claims against a vessel are maritime liens and will survive a sale for value without notice.

If buying anywhere in Europe or Asia check the law of the country where the vessel is lying.

A boat on the SSR or not registered at all is just a chattel and the law relating to chattels applies; there is no unimpeachable title and ownership is a matter of evidence, so if someone else says “that’s my boat!” you are reduced to a paper trail and hard swearing, but the comments above in relation to liens still apply.

We now return you to your regular programming.

Anyone really interested in this can follow up the subject by reading about “Torrens Titles”.

Torrens title - Wikipedia

If one is ever asked “what has Australia ever done for civilisation?” this is a pretty good answer.

The adoption of Torrens titles for ships and boats in the UK in the Merchant Shipping Act of 1894, Part One, actually pre-dates the adoption of Torrens titles in English land law by thirty years and it was its success in shipping that led to its adoption in land law.

Joseph Conrad’s last post at sea was as Mate of the passenger clipper ship “Torrens” and one of the passengers was John Galsworthy who encouraged him to take up writing as a career…

Torrens (clipper ship) - Wikipedia
 
Last edited:
sailaboutvic said:
Steve yeaaaaaaa ha ha
I have to say your country man ( David ) isn't any better
Click to expand...
I never did business with David but I've heard some horror stories. I'm sure there are some good yacht brokers around but there are far too many chancers in the business and, like Stephen, lazy as sin.
 
Friend of mine bought a boat quite a few years ago. After some months a finance co turned up & asked for the boat back. It seemed that a large sum was outstanding. My friend negotiated something like £20K plus to settle the debt. The seller absconded to France, so my friend was told that he would be wasting good money trying to recover
 
newtothis said:
Didn't that go out with rum and the lash?
Click to expand...

Well, pretty much. They all went out with Morse Code and subsea telegraph cables.

A bottomry bond was a loan taken out by a ship’s Master (not the owner) at a foreign port to get necessary repairs done and necessary stores loaded to get the ship to her destination. It’s sailing ship stuff - went out with telegraph cables and the triple expansion steamer.

Talking of which let me blow my own trumpet for a moment - this is all true:

A Chapter on Banking: financial crises and an old magazine... | Gwulo: Old Hong Kong
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Share this page

Top