Buy privately or use a broker

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Seems quite clear and emphasises the need for a survey.

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Well, they would, wouldn't they /forums/images/graemlins/ooo.gif

Should you ever face (big) costs because of a fault the surveyor should have find and the excrement hits the fan you will find that the YBDSA is very much on the side of the surveyor. /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif

I'm also baffled by the attitude of some surveyors that they have to be impartial /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif You pay him, so he should be on your side; he does not owe the surveyor or broker anything.

This 'impartiality' often leads to fluffy lyrics not saying very much and thus rendering the entire survey useless and a waste of money.

Before we bought Guapa we had our mind set on another boat. Offer accepted (subject to survey), deposit paid and survey organised.

I had been told that the boat had recently had osmosis treatment.
Upon closer inspection it appeared that the hull below the waterline was 4mm thinner than above the waterline.
I drew the surveyor's attention to this and specifically asked for his expert opinion on the matter.

From the survey report:
The hull probably remains adequately strong. /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif

In layman's terms: she might float, but don't hold me to it.

I walked away from the deal.
 
You do not want anything less than a full survey, maybe £300 - £400? Bear in mind it will not get to any inaccessible areas, nor will it comment on engine, instruments, electrics, apart from superficial appearance. Though you can get those surveyed - at more expense!
 
Phideaux, I'm beginning to wonder if you should be buying a boat at all?

It's not clear from your posts what boating experience you have? I'd sailed with others, done all the courses and chartered for decades before buying. There was still a lot I didn't know about owning and maintaining a boat, but I picked a lot of info up over the years and I learned fast how to assess what I was seeing. If you haven't got that background, then especially with older boats, it's a minefield, and you're right to look for help.

But...if you haven't sailed, or not much, then do that at a club or with friends for a year or so, and then think about buying. I've often said to people, if you want to start sailing, the last thing you need is a boat!!
 
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although I don't suppose it's inexpensive.

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Nothing on boats is /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

For a survey if you budget to pay between £12-14/foot you'll have an idea of cost
 
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Phideaux, I'm beginning to wonder if you should be buying a boat at all?

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You may well be right!

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It's not clear from your posts what boating experience you have?

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Not a lot on sailboats apart from the occasional week or so with the scouts 35 years ago on liveaboard shallow-draft 32' Broads sailing cruisers and the odd day out here and there with friends on a clinker-built 20'. However, as a BSAC advanced diver, I've had quite a bit of time as a cox for diving inflatable/RIBs and am reasonably conversant with charts, tides and navigation (but, no doubt, somewhat rusty).

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But...if you haven't sailed, or not much, then do that at a club or with friends for a year or so, and then think about buying. I've often said to people, if you want to start sailing, the last thing you need is a boat!!

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Yup, I'll look to join a club. I'm also pestering friends (and friends of friends) for any contacts and/or opportunities to get some experience.

I'm also trying to decide whether to go to do the 'competent crew', or whether to get some hours under my belt and then think about the Day Skipper practical. No doubt someone knowledgeable that's had me on their boat for a few hours will gently point me in the right direction. Advice on this matter has already been sought from other ybw forums.

However, I don't see the need to wait years before buying. I'd hope to gain enough experience over this summer to consider a purchase this autumn, with the view to undertaking any refitting over the coming winter/spring. From the sounds of it, it can take many months to find the right boat; I was interested to know if the search should be reliant on brokers, or not.
 
Given your diving backgound, I would have a chat to some sailing schools and probably go for the Day Skipper course. The skills to organise and manage a days diving for a group of divers are the same as those required to organise a crew. Chartwork can be brushed up on with the Diving manuals and a couple of evenings reading. The sailing well you have a week with an instructor to practise and it will involve lots of playing with sails. Join the club, do the course whilst thinking about the yacht you would like to sail.

Pete
 
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Given your diving backgound, I would have a chat to some sailing schools and probably go for the Day Skipper course. The skills to organise and manage a days diving for a group of divers are the same as those required to organise a crew. Chartwork can be brushed up on with the Diving manuals and a couple of evenings reading. The sailing well you have a week with an instructor to practise and it will involve lots of playing with sails. Join the club, do the course whilst thinking about the yacht you would like to sail.

Pete

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Cheers Pete,

That's sort of what I was hoping, but I didn't want to be so bold as to assume anything.
 
A broker stops you from meeting the yacht's owner and hence having a chance to find some common ground on such ideas as price and also prevents you from having a chance to ask some basic questions about the ship.
 
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So what, exactly, does a broker do? There are responses saying that he represents only the owner's interests; you advise that he represents both parties. Some liken them to estate agents (and that's open to a myriad of interpretations).

I now understand (from comments by others) that a broker will arrange the details of the transaction and may provide after sales services. However this sounds as if it is all after committing to the purchase.

From my perspective, if I go to a broker who's advertising a boat on behalf of a seller, explain that I'm a novice and and ask him/her to show me the boat, explaining the good, the bad and the ugly points, am I likely to get a fair, impartial and considered opinion? Or will they be looking to make the sale regardless of my need for advice? From the sounds of it, it will be the latter, in which case I need to engage a knowledgeable professional (for a fee) to act on my behalf.

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The brokers job is to find buyers for his sellers, and help in arranging the deal. He is contractually bound to the seller and his primary responsibility is to the seller. At times especially with new boats but sometimes with secondhand boats he may be the retailer instead and actually own the boat he is selling, though this should be made clear to you.

He should be able to give you general advice such as 'yes this type of boat is suitable for a novice' but is unlikely to know you and your family well enough to say any boat is the right boat for you.

Clearly a good broker will give you the best advice he can, as unbiased as he can make it, but a bad one may not. Of course he has to be truthful. He will never be able to make the choice for you, but should beable to select from his stock boats that may suit your needs, but once again the reality is that most boats are suitable for most types of sailors, it is really only the out and out racers that cannot be easily handled by a novice, and some of the older classic boats.

May be you should do some charteriing first to get more of an idea of what you need from a boat, it is compared to ownership cheap and can give you a good opportunity to try different boats.

Good luck
 
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May be you should do some chartering first to get more of an idea of what you need from a boat, it is compared to ownership cheap and can give you a good opportunity to try different boats.

Good luck

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Yes, I had this thought too.

One of the questions that I've asked on another forum is the typical annual costs of keeping/operating a boat (with the assumption that it's seaworthy and in reasonable condition) and received some very useful responses.

It may be that it is significantly cheaper and more flexible to just charter at weekends and during holidays. It would also mean that I could sail anywhere around the UK, providing there was a charter available. However, I suspect it wouldn't give the same satisfaction as I think I'd get from owning my own boat. Also, aren't most charters quite new which might make it difficult to find something like a Kingfisher 30 or Elizabethan to charter (not that I'm fixed on one or other of these).

Also, am I correct in believing that I'd have to have my RYA Day Skipper ticket in order to charter?

I think that I probably will charter at some point, probably when I'm considering trading up after learning on something smaller/cheaper/older/lower spec.
 
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A broker stops you from meeting the yacht's owner and hence having a chance to find some common ground on such ideas as price and also prevents you from having a chance to ask some basic questions about the ship.

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Sorry, totally incorrect in our case, we're buying through a broker and we have met the owner many times. He was on board varnishing her when we went to look around!

The broker is also there to explain to the owner that their expectations of what the yacht is worth might not be realistic, and also to help them sell their boat, which is why the owner went to them in the first place.

Everything we asked the broker for, we got, the broker also tracked down the original buyer of our yacht and managed to get a copy of the original final payment receipt.

Our broker has been great, and we've got the boat we wanted, within our budget.....Just /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
 
Even if you would not be chartering the kind of boat you might buy you will be getting experience to judge boats by which is useful, and fun too. You will get to sail in new areas and meet other boat owners and learn from them.

In the UK there is no legal requirement for certification though some insurers call for it. Often you only need to show the charter company that you have the experience, some ask to ahve a hour or so on the water with you, ask around is the only way to find out. The coding regulations have forced a lot of the smaller older boats out of the market, but as I say the experience of a number of boats will help yopu form an opinion of what is good for you anmd what is not
 
Snooks,

Entirely reasonable upbraiding. Mine was an off the cuff comment based on a couple of experiences. Other brokers have been extremely helpful and are a credit to their breed.

What.. we're supposed to be fair & unbiased on this forum at all times.... pshhhhaaawwww

SmileyG
 
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