Bulldog Clips 80% of Wire Strength-Is that additive?

[thinwater]

Here are some good instructions from Crosby, a leading manufacturer of rigging and lifting hardware. It includes determining the required number, torque, locations, and tightening sequence.

Crosby Clips Instructions

 

[Refueler]

I can tell you straight from personal experience just a couple of weeks ago ....

I have a 1 ton winch fitted to my 1 ton HIAB on my flat bed van .. basically - HIAB when lifting alters its vertical hanging position to lift .. so a winch is used to maintain head in same position.

I was lifting my mini Excavator onto the flat bed when the winch wire failed. ... the lift was ~600kgs .... less than the rated winch and wire ...

Where did it fail - at the first clip from the winch to hook section ...

Checking the failed ends .. the strands showed damage from the clips 'crushing' the strands ... (I did not install this - it was a previous owners fitting).

Personally and according to the years as a Deck Office on ships with derricks / cranes etc ... I would never assume any joint / clip / splice etc gives 100% strength as per the rope / wire its used on ..

The above seems to uphold my view.

 

[DownWest]

Its not as if I'm considering doing something bizarrely modern, like, for example, using Dynema

I was geared up to rig a local friend's new 6mt gaffer, when he went to buy the cable, they suggested Dynema and it was cheaper.. They even supplied the splicing hooks/tools. Worked out very well.
Huge plus, if away from home, is, apart from the splicing tools, nothing else needed.
Might be hanging up my swaging kit. Not least, because my current and likely last build, is an unstayed cat yawl.

 

[PetiteFleur]

I would not use those clips for rigging - you would continually catch them on your trousers/ankle. They may be strong enough but would look ugly... I have used them in the garden using old rigging wire as supports in our raspberry cage, ok for that as long as you cover the clips.

 

[ducked]

I would not use those clips for rigging - you would continually catch them on your trousers/ankle. They may be strong enough but would look ugly... I have used them in the garden using old rigging wire as supports in our raspberry cage, ok for that as long as you cover the clips.

I often see covers over lower shroud terminations, which should avoid both the snagging and the aesthetic issues.

 

[KevinV]

I often see covers over lower shroud terminations, which should avoid both the snagging and the aesthetic issues.

Frankly I'm not sure why you're bothering to bodge it in a rush - from the look of that photo you have more to attend to than rigging that appears to be in order.

 

[ducked]

I was geared up to rig a local friend's new 6mt gaffer, when he went to buy the cable, they suggested Dynema and it was cheaper.. They even supplied the splicing hooks/tools. Worked out very well.
Huge plus, if away from home, is, apart from the splicing tools, nothing else needed.
Might be hanging up my swaging kit. Not least, because my current and likely last build, is an unstayed cat yawl.

The "huge plus" seems to be relative to pro machine-swaged stainless steel terminations. Compared to bulldog clamps and galvanized wire,, that huge plus seems to be the same.

Dynema is of course much lighter, which is a huge plus, but I really doubt its cheaper, at least not yet.

I'd think a huge minus would be its questionable long term UV stability, which would mean that, rather like stainless steel, long term it couldnt be trusted.

OTOH, of course, in the long term we are all dead

 

[ducked]

Frankly I'm not sure why you're bothering to bodge it in a rush - from the look of that photo you have more to attend to than rigging that appears to be in order.

Yeh, I think I already said that.
In the post that goes with the photo.

OTOH I don't think I said I was "bothering to bodge it" or "in a rush"
I think that was you.

 

[ducked]

Here are some good instructions from Crosby, a leading manufacturer of rigging and lifting hardware. It includes determining the required number, torque, locations, and tightening sequence.

Crosby Clips Instructions

Thanks. Doesnt seem to cover 7X7 cable, but I can look into that specifically IF I actually have to do a wire replacement.

 

[Refueler]

Well, THIS is embarrassing.

Had another look at a photo taken last year, which happens to show the shrouds at deck level. Zoomed in (more detail on the original than on the forumsized copy) its clear they have a Talurit-type crimping, a rather wide one, It doesnt look like copper, though I suppose it could be plated, and/or covered in verdegris. Its grey rather than blue/green though

If it is in fact aluminium, that would seem to imply that the wire is galvanized, rather than stainless, I would have expected to notice that, though I didn't examine it closely.

IF the standing rigging is galvanized I didnt notice any rust at the time, and there isnt any visible in the picture, so perhaps I wont have to replace it yet, assuming its also OK aloft, and when looked at closely.




View attachment 202207

That is the typical look of a talurit after years of exposure ...

Judging by the sheen on the wire - its stainless not galvanised. If it was galvanised - with that amount of discolouration of talurit which takes significant time - the wires would be corroded ...

 

[ducked]

That is the typical look of a talurit after years of exposure ...

Judging by the sheen on the wire - its stainless not galvanised. If it was galvanised - with that amount of discolouration of talurit which takes significant time - the wires would be corroded ...

Thanks.

Pity, since if its stainless it should probably be replaced, which is where we came in. . My recollection was that it was stainless though. and it doesn't really look like galvanized in the picture.

Was just the appearance of the crimp that raised doubts in my mind, and that of the rigging screws, which do appear to be galvanized so I suppose are strictly speaking incompatible with stainless. They didnt/dont appear superficially to have suffered much though.

 

[Refueler]

Thanks.

Pity, since if its stainless it should probably be replaced, which is where we came in. . My recollection was that it was stainless though. and it doesn't really look like galvanized in the picture.

Was just the appearance of the crimp that raised doubts in my mind, and that of the rigging screws, which do appear to be galvanized so I suppose are strictly speaking incompatible with stainless. They didnt/dont appear superficially to have suffered much though.

Why replace ? If its that daft 10yr bit some keep quoting ... for a cruising boat - which I suspect from the lictures yours is - they are likely fine to continue on ...

 

[ridgy]

Looking at that picture the boat hasn't been used for 10 years and I wouldn't be surprised if that rigging was 30 years old. God knows what the rest of the boat is like. Not replacing would be better than replacing with DIY terminations.

 

[ducked]

Looking at that picture the boat hasn't been used for 10 years and I wouldn't be surprised if that rigging was 30 years old. God knows what the rest of the boat is like. Not replacing would be better than replacing with DIY terminations.

I think I was told 5 years by other yard occupants. There were a coiple of young brambles (I think), growing in some silt on the sterndeck, about maybe 8 inches high, but I dunno how fast branbles grow so thats not much guide.

Not replacing 30 year old rigging un-maintained for 10 years would be better than DIY terminations?

Hmm...Seems a bit extreme, but I'll decide when I get back to the UK and have a better look at it, assuming its still up.

 

[ducked]

Why replace ? If its that daft 10yr bit some keep quoting ... for a cruising boat - which I suspect from the lictures yours is - they are likely fine to continue on ...

Not really. I think the 10 year life jive is mostly an insurance thing, and I dont have any, though I'll probably have to get 3rd party at least eventually.

Its more the "sudden unheralded failure" hidden crevice corrosion thing, a reason to prefer galvanized over stainless. I dunno how likely that is (and it may not be possible to tell) but if it does fail I suppose its likely do it at those crimps, which have been collecting acid rain and chloride for an unknown, but probably considerable while.

 

[Refueler]

3rd party insurance is fine .. gives what marina's want etc.

 

[ducked]

Deleted

 

[ducked]

Here are some good instructions from Crosby, a leading manufacturer of rigging and lifting hardware. It includes determining the required number, torque, locations, and tightening sequence.

Crosby Clips Instructions

I note however that it has the standard engineering jive about torque specs being for clean dry unlubricated threads. This is usually unfortunate, but probably especially so in this context, and the ‘standard’ correction factors for standard lubricants found in say Engineering Toolbox perhaps won’t be sufficiently accurate, (or even applicable, since I might use unlisted lubticants like aluminium antiseize or thread lock, and/or unconventional ones like PTFE thread tape and/or polythene sheet.)

I would probably try using the “turn of the nut” method, torquing dry and then applying the same rotation lubricated. While I have found this doesn’t really work for cylinder head bolts, being complicated by gasket compression and interaction between adjacent bolts, I think it might work OK here. Cable compression will change on a second torquing, but one could move it to a new bit of cable, or do the first torquing on a scrap bit.

Fortunately AFACT the cable weakening isnt additive either.

 

[ducked]

On that site (just the first example search found, and in the US, so probably not a good source to supply the UK) they are available in stainless steel, hot dipped galvanized,(apparently 2 grades) and plated.

The existing wire is stainless steel, swaged, so I would use stainless clips with that, unless it was just a temporary lash-up. The existing turnbuckles appear to be galvanized.

If I replace the wire, I'm considering replacing it with galvanized 7X7, though this may not be appropriate for the forestay.

DIY alternatives would seem to be learning to splice, Talurit or wire seizing. Learning to splice is a possibility though it might be a challenge for the arthritus. There's a Taiwan maker of big hand crimpers for the Talurit-type swages, but the weight would make them expensive to ship. I probably wouldn't have sufficient confidence in (my) wire seizing alone.

80% overall should still be OK. I suppose one could put wire seizing between the clips but with frapping that would put the cables out of parallel, possibly weakening them at the clips. Perhaps thats why it doesn't seem to be done.

Culiffe 2005 (Hand, Reef and Steer) has, for racking seizing, (turns) ...""are wound around and between the parts of the shroud in a figure eight configuration. The wire is then wound round and round back to the starting point, heaving up hard at every turn so that it beds down in between each part of the figures of eight. Finish the turn by frapping, as for a flat seizing. If four or five of these are worked into a shroud it will never move...""

He also makes the point that, unlike a splice, a seizing doesnt damage the galvanizing

This sounds pretty good, but would need some practive and perhaps some testing

Some really obscure descriptions on the Internyet, and some apparent confusion, which of course AI ampifies, and the best explanations I've seen are for fibre rather than wire.

How is the Brion Toss tome on this? Might have to get one and find out

 

[Neeves]

I think your assumption is incorrect.
But if you do use them, remember not to saddle a dead horse.

Contemporaneously this was sent by Chinese rigging company - they send me educational snippets regularly. They sent this one today - it seemed redundant but it reinforced Norman's post #2

Well done Norman

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[td] [td] [td] Wire Rope Clips, Never Saddle a Dead Horse​ ​ ​ [td] [td] [th] About us​ ​ [/th][th] Our Products​ ​ [/th][th] Our Blogs​ ​ [/th]​

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[td] [td] [td] ​ ​ [td] [td] The phrase "Never Saddle a Dead Horse" in the context of wire rope clips means that when installing a wire rope clip, the saddle—the part of the clip with a solid base and teeth—should always be placed on the live end (the part under tension or carrying the load) of the wire rope, not on the dead end (the loose or cut end that bears no load). The U-bolt part of the clip should be on the dead end.​ ​

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[td] [td] [td] ​ ​ [td] [td] This rule is important because if the saddle is placed on the dead end, the clip will not grip the live end securely, which can drastically reduce the capacity and safety of the wire rope connection. The U-bolt can crush the live wire if incorrectly installed, leading to a significant risk of slippage or failure under load. Thus, just as you wouldn't put a saddle on a dead horse and expect it to work, you should never put the saddle part of the clip on the dead end of a wire rope to maintain safe and strong rigging. ​ Explanation:​ Wire rope clips consist of a U-bolt and a saddle. The live end is the load-bearing part; the dead end is the loose end. Correct installation places the saddle on the live end and the U-bolt on the dead end. Incorrect installation ("saddling a dead horse") leads to reduced strength and possible failure. The mnemonic helps ensure safety in rigging and lifting applications. This principle is widely recognized in rigging, construction, and safety professions to prevent accidents caused by improper wire rope clip installation.​ ​

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