burgundyben
Well-Known Member
Be careful. The rudder is extraordinarily heavy, much more so than you realise (ex Westerley Sea School maintenance bod thats had a lot of rudders out of Westerly boats)
Brown Rusty Stuff Coming From Rudder
- Thread starter The Real Flipper
- Start date
seumask
Well-Known Member
I would drill a hole in the bottom of the rudder from underneath the tip, if you haven't done so already to drain what looks like a wet bottom half. I used a 5mm drill, with a hole at the top to let air in and a hole at the bottom to let water out.
bignick
Well-Known Member
Someone posted previously that the bottom 300mm of the rudder was solid glass on a Westerly.
If that is true, then you need to drill through the skin into the foam core, above the solid grp part.
sailaboutvic
Well-Known Member
Can I suggest while you waiting for the weekend drill another hole right at the bottom.
Won't take much filling .
Won't take much filling .
The Real Flipper
Well-Known Member
So I got some help from a few guys at the marina and managed to lower the rudder down. We used an interesting tool that's basically a jack, but looks like the business end of a forklift. So basically just the fork. Anyway, it was a bit stuck on the metal bits where the retaining bolt goes through, but finally came down.
The top bushing looks good but if that black stuff was once grease it has turned to dust long ago.
First thing I noticed is the freaking huge rudder post! Next was the rusty colored stuff got a bit up into the tube but not past the bottom bushing.
It seemed pretty obvious by the rough fiberglass textures that there had been a repair before:
So I cleaned it up a bit to find this:
One side actually looks pretty decent:
The other side not so much:
But the real big news is that this little crack cleaned up to show two good size cracks:
In real life the cracks look pretty tiny. Even the one on top looks quite small to the naked eye.
Also the drip has stopped. And I'm actually a bit surprised that more water didn't come out. In total I guess it was a couple of cups.
The marina tech advised I clean up around the metal ring with a Dremel and re glass/epoxy all around. That was before I cleaned up and exposed the rest of the crack. Enough of my jabber. What do you guys think?
The top bushing looks good but if that black stuff was once grease it has turned to dust long ago.
First thing I noticed is the freaking huge rudder post! Next was the rusty colored stuff got a bit up into the tube but not past the bottom bushing.
It seemed pretty obvious by the rough fiberglass textures that there had been a repair before:
So I cleaned it up a bit to find this:
One side actually looks pretty decent:
The other side not so much:
But the real big news is that this little crack cleaned up to show two good size cracks:
In real life the cracks look pretty tiny. Even the one on top looks quite small to the naked eye.
Also the drip has stopped. And I'm actually a bit surprised that more water didn't come out. In total I guess it was a couple of cups.
The marina tech advised I clean up around the metal ring with a Dremel and re glass/epoxy all around. That was before I cleaned up and exposed the rest of the crack. Enough of my jabber. What do you guys think?
Fr J Hackett
Well-Known Member
Grind it back to the base of the crack then open it up and repair with mat and resin wrapping well around the circumference. It will also give you an idea of what the metalwork inside the rudder is like.
wingcommander
Well-Known Member
Possibly trapped enough water in the rudder top section , frozen , and caused the split. Looks like separate the two bits n go from their , grind n find as above
The Real Flipper
Well-Known Member
I'm going to grind it back and repair for now. Since no more water is coming out for a few days. In the late spring/early summer when she comes out for hull work and she's already up on the crane I'll pull the rudder completely, split it open, dry completely (in better weather than now!), and check inside for any supporting work that may need to be done. And I have someone in the marina who is experienced with this kind of repair and can help advising. 'Consulting' fees will be paid in barbecues and beer ;-)
For now I wonder how many layers of fiberglass will seal it well until then? I got a two inch wide roll. So I'm thinking one strip down along the crack, and three strips horizontally to wrap around the sides. Then a few pieces with half circles cut in place on either side of the flange, to seal up to the metal. maybe do that two deep. Then primocon/antifoul.
Good enough for one winter?
For now I wonder how many layers of fiberglass will seal it well until then? I got a two inch wide roll. So I'm thinking one strip down along the crack, and three strips horizontally to wrap around the sides. Then a few pieces with half circles cut in place on either side of the flange, to seal up to the metal. maybe do that two deep. Then primocon/antifoul.
Good enough for one winter?
ianat182
Well-Known Member
In the last photograph the diameter of the shaft appears to be less at the base than the rest - clear air between the upper and lower gap above the bearing/washer, or is this an outer sleeve on the shaft?
Could this be a sign that the shaft assembly has moved within the rudder blade, a small amount vertically. Just seems odd. I would expect the diameter of the post to to be the same as the bearing, but maybe not in this design. Bearing. renewal would not be possible would it?
Could this be a sign that the shaft assembly has moved within the rudder blade, a small amount vertically. Just seems odd. I would expect the diameter of the post to to be the same as the bearing, but maybe not in this design. Bearing. renewal would not be possible would it?
sailaboutvic
Well-Known Member
Might just be the way the photo taken
Blueboatman
Well-Known Member
Great plan.
I concur with all of that.
You might in the spring ask your marina rudder professional whether a groove around the fibreglass/shaft join would be better filled with something a little more elastic than epoxy - myself I would use Sikafkex , but only there.
All cracks etc are to be epoxied once he has proven the soundness of the interior shaft-tang welds ..
Well done persevering thus far and taking a sensible approach to it .
Enjoy the sailing once she’s back in the water
zoidberg
Well-Known Member
I took that advice from someone on 'ere several years ago. ( you? ) Guess what! I didn't enjoy the work, I've learned a lot about boaty DIY that I didn't ever know I wanted to know, and I'm far from sure I'm happier for it.....
But I'm far from a good example!
peter gibbs
Well-Known Member
This is unquestionably an extreme response to a common observation on rudders. Many are by their construction damp or even wet internally. Loose talk about tangs rotting and rudders decomposing does no service to concerned owners. Splitting the rudder to examine it and reseal is without sound purpose, even if done professionally. Draining water from the blade by drilling low down and resealing has some value. Resealing at the junction between blade and post has value and is undoubtedly the issue here. Laying up for a season to rebuild etc is entirely OTT. Many other pieces of boat equipment have a higher failure rate than rudders....
Blueboatman
Well-Known Member
I have rebuilt two failed rudders
That’s my direct experience anyway
Salt saturated u bolts going through a deck and holding up the rigging do fail in much the same way sadly . Stainless, salt , damp, stagnant anaerobic conditions meh
Fr J Hackett
Well-Known Member
Having had another thought if I were repairing it I would cut the collar off that is already split, seal the rudder off which is below it if not already done. Drill a hole in the bottom of the rudder to drain it then fabricate a new collar piece with a lapped join but overall about a cm less in diameter than the original. Join and bond the two halves together around the rudder shaft bonding also to the main rudder at the base. Then make up to the original diameter / thickness by over wrapping with cloth ensuring that the join of the two halves is overlapped with several layers of cloth. You could also extend the wrappings onto the rudder by grinding back the rudder and then fairing out everything .
LONG_KEELER
Well-Known Member
Just a thought if you decide to split the rudder. I went through this last winter taking the rudder home. It just about stood upright in the downstairs bathroom. The transom hung rudder suffered a large gouge . From where I don't know.
I watched a number of Youtube videos on opening up the rudder. I decided to cut a rectangular "window" in one side rather than split at the join. I found this a lot easier with my limited skills and good access to inspect the interior. The foam was easy to remove where necessary. I epoxied the window back, dug out a bit on the rudder's join and applied epoxy filler where necessary. It can make a difference which side to open up . If you can find out which side of the rudder has the most interior metal.
Blueboatman
Well-Known Member
That is exactly right ( imo!?)
One can cut an angled piece out out of one cheek using a Fein type multi tool , right down to the tang/shaft .
Daydream believer
Well-Known Member
I would drill a couple of holes higher up the rudder. The foam filling may actually seal the rudder mid height & there may be water trapped in the upper half. That was the case in my rudder. I drilled 3-4 holes at 4 inch centres from the top down untill the water stopped coming out. As you have to fill holes lower down it will be easy to fill a couple more while you have the epoxy mixed.
This is a picture of my 11 year old rudder after it broke. I know that you have a stainless steel stock & mine is aluminium but you might note the missing foam & the massive corrosion in the stock 12 inches down from the top of the rudder inside. Presumably stainless steel is open to the same issues. Albeit hopefully to a limited extent. Hopefully yours has a better filling of foam
This is a picture of my 11 year old rudder after it broke. I know that you have a stainless steel stock & mine is aluminium but you might note the missing foam & the massive corrosion in the stock 12 inches down from the top of the rudder inside. Presumably stainless steel is open to the same issues. Albeit hopefully to a limited extent. Hopefully yours has a better filling of foam
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Blueboatman
Well-Known Member
Pearson ( ‘merican) favoured aluminium for rudder stocks on some early models . My neighbour dove the intracoastal waterway to recover his , which snapped at the top of the blade. I removed mine, sold it (!) and made a new one using stainless heavy wall tube with three flat bars slotted through and spot welded and then wrapped in high density foam and grp sheathing , faired .
I would like to say that by tweaking the shape slightly to a NASAsection I achieved one degree less between tacks but it was also not quite so nice on the feedback through the tiller . But , it was STRONG?
The Real Flipper
Well-Known Member
It's just the angle of the photo, but good eye.
People here have noticed things in my own photos several times that I didn't see myself.
So I always appreciate the feedback
Hmm hadn't thought of water trapped above. OK, I'll drill a couple more tomorrow and see what happens.
It dripped again today, just a tiny bit, but I guess there's still at least some moisture in there.
I think I'll put one in the very bottom too. Even though the bottom is supposed to be solid, some water may still have run down around the edges.
So hard to tell without seeing inside!
Well, one word that doesn't bother me with sailboats is 'overbuilt' haha ;-)
BTW, a little off topic, I saw a Hallberg Rassy 382 on land today and was admiring his skeg. Built like a tank.
Funny the things we come to appreciate.