Brokers bull****

[Guest]

I am looking at a Targa 31 1993 which is on with Ancasta and Peters @ £67950.I viewed the boat the other day with the peters guy who after we got chatting informed me that for what he actually got paid for selling a used boat it was`nt worth the paperwork which didnt give me any confidence to carry on dealing with him, so i approached Ancasta who have informed me that the boat has no service history prior to 1998, the current owners bought it from peters knowing this.Being in the motor trade i know the importance of service history with respect to reliability and resale values. Now Mr Ancasta is trying to tell me that is not that important although people have their boats serviced they dont bother keeping invoices and service books its different from the motor trade, he informed me that of all the boats on their books very few have full service history, what does he take me for , a £30,000 BMW with out FSH would concern most people but boats worth £60,000 upward with no history is no big deal ,yeah right.

 

[markc]

From all my past experiences with brokers, I now tar them all with the same brush, whether buying or selling I think they are cr@p (IMHO). Now if I come across a good one I have a nice surprise

Mark

 

[MRC]

Same as cars - Price the boat 20% off mkt value of a boat with FSH ????

 

[peterg]

FWIW - for what it\'s worth..

I have bought only secondhand boats (so far!) and they have all had some but not necessarily all of the invoices for servicing but none of them have had a 'Service book' as such (and the current boat was £120k new in 1996) with dealer stamps etc.

I keep every invoice for work that I have had done and pass this on with the boat when it's sold so at least the next owner knows what's been done during my ownership.

IMHO a lot of people (me included) use companies other than Volvo main dealers for servicing and they may be reluctant to admit as such but I have not found any reason to doubt the standard of work of these people as I always ask around locally for recommendations first.....

 

[ari]

Suspect Peters guy won't be there long if that is his attitude! If they don't sell boats they won't stay in business, would you want someone working for you thinking that way?

As far as service history goes, it never ceases to amaze me how lax people are about keeping not only invoices for boats but title documentation too (although that is another story for another thread...)! Lack of service history should be rare you are quite right, but it isn't.

I suspect maybe that also it may have a lot to do with "cash in hand" serviceing discounts perhaps?

Ari.

 

[miket]

Like Peterg, all my boats have been 2nd hand, albeit quite expensive.

Very few have had what I would call full service history, and none a service book. I am not sure they exist?

Marine diesels are quite resilient, and if you doubt their integrity have them checked by an engineer.

I would certainly suggest discounting the price for no service history, but I think 20% might be optimistic.

If the boat looks well cared for, and you can usually tell, don't be too put off by lack of servicing invoices. Perhaps the brokers should make more effort to extract relevant paperwork from owners. In fact, perhaps brokers should make more effort! (full stop)

 

[Scubadoo]

This is an interesting problem, I guess from new the boat will have at least 3years of service history (3yr Volvo Warranty). What about people who service their own boat, all you can hope for is a log of when and receipts for parts like Oil filter etc. If I came across a boat with the right records and receipts I would be happy, I feel you don't nessacarly need a dealer stamp.

RM.

 

[david_e]

Suggest if you are interested in the boat that you chat with the owner, just as you might do with an expensive car to verify the mileage etc. As you know with a car no history need not be the end of the world, and it useful for negotiating the price down. As for offering 20% below the asking price why not, you have to start somewhere, however if the boat was advertised at £50k ish do you think it would still be for sale? If they accept your bid though what would you be thinking next? Stolen, write off, finance problems? Its the old saying Caveat Emptor at this price level, good luck.

 

[byron]

I have never kept a service history on my boats. A few odd notes in the log like "had a good dump in the new Loo well worth the fiver I gave smiffy for it"
Sometimes the odd invoice but as most times I have just bunged someone a few shekels to fix something and never thought to record it.

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www.education-jobs.co.uk
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[Deleted User YDKXO]

I dont think its common to hand over a sheaf of service documents and, as far as I'm aware, no manufacturer provides a service book as such. What counts is what condition the boat is in now not whats been done to it in the past. Get a full survey and, particularly, an engine survey by a reputable mechanic or dealer. Make sure you have an extended sea trial and test all the equipment.
Use the fact that the boat has been neglected to offer a low low price. £50k would be a good starting point
As for the Peters guy, he's a w****r. They earn 8% + VAT and thats far more than they're worth

 

[ari]

Although before you do offer £50K less, you might want to consider whether you'd knock the price of a brand new BMW off the price when you come to sell just because you haven't got copies of invoices, and what you'd think of the person offering you £18K less and whether you'd bother to continue negotiations or tell the prospective purchaser where to go.....

Just a thought.

Ari.

 

[BarryD]

IMHO - Everything is negotiable. With no service history and hull, engine and electonics survey is needed just to asses the starting price of the boat. ALONG with a good hours thrash around the bay - fuel paid for by the seller. If the seller is confident in the boat he will reject a low offer, or make a counter sale price.

If he sits on £70K and you don't want to pay £70K then walk away. Loads more boats to look at. AND if you stop at £55K - pound to a penny you'll get a call in a couple of days saying Mr X is intrested to sell but really wants £65k etc.. then you are in play.

BTW it's not £18K of the sale prices it's 20%. If you looked at a beemer for £20,000 with no service history £18,000 is a fair starting offer. Think percentages not value.

 

[ari]

Quite agree everything is negotiabe, but eighteen thousand pounds is still eighteen thousand pounds whatever the percentage.

And personally I'd want to agree the price before survey and sea trial, and then renegotiate if the survey/sea trial throw up any faults. I'd feel a bit foolish if I went to all the time trouble and expense only to discover that the vendor wasn't of a mind to accept what I felt the boat was worth anyway!

My original point however was that attempting to kick someone in the soft fleshy bits for £18,000 just because there is no service history on a boat that is nearly nine years old wouldn't impress me as a vendor. As has already been said, it is the condition of the boat now that is important which you'll only really know after survey.

Ari.

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

First rule of negotiation - you can always go up but you cant go down. Its odds on an offer of £50k will be rejected so when it is, offer a little more. As soon as the owner sees a buyer is moving on price then he will take him seriously
PS You dont get much of a new BM for £18k!

 

[BarryD]

I see your point my post wasn't very clear sorry. Always decide / negotiate on the price - subject to sea trial, then survey(s). If the sea trial is crud or the survey highlights odd things then adjust your price. Start low initially and go up (next week how to suck eggs) - get the reports from the surveyor and go down or come back from the sea trial with a blown engine and plummet price wise <G>

One of the chaps on the board commisisoned a survey without a sea trial and spent money being told gennys and bow thrusters didn't work - and he'd visited the boat!! Do the trial, try and break the boat if it survives that then roll up your sleeves and get a surveyor in.

Yes its expensive to fly out and try a boat before surveying it (which might just prove its a wreck) but you could find you don't like out how it rides, the short people don't like the whine from the engines, loads of things worth knowing before you spend money on a survey or actually buy the thing!

And if you spend £70k on a boat in Portugal you can surely afford the £100 / £200 flught ticket to go and see it?

 

[ari]

I couldn't agree more with your sentiments regarding negotiation, you can only go up, but let me try and explain what I mean.

Firstly I think you'll find that if you tap £67,950 into your calculator, X 26.5% and subtract it you'll end up at near as damit the £50K mentioned. To use the £20,000 car analogy that'd actually be like offering £14,700. Try that at your local BMW garage on a £20K car! (no wonder the brokers don't return your calls!!)

The 93 Targa 31 mentioned is up for £67,950. Now from my knowledge of these boats (and I used to run one very similar until recently) a right spec one is a popular and successful medium sized cruiser. It is a desirable boat with the stainless steel curved screen and integral bathing platform and it is a Fairline. I reckon they'd normally sell for what, mid £60K's? . Maybe a bit less in mid winter with all the doom and gloom merchants in full song.

BUT. we don't know what condition this boat is in. We don't know what engines it has got (if it is twin AQAD 41 200hp then great, if it is AQAD 31 4 cyl 130hp then it is worth a lot less). We don't know what equipment it has got (radar, heating, plotter, dinghy, outboard, davits? What??) So it is impossible to advise our friend without knowing any of this.

My point is that you can't just wade in and say "no service history offer him £50K" without knowing all the facts. You're more likely to put the owners back up and lose the brokers interest in you as a serious prospect immediately IMHO. After all, thats not far off what you'd expect to see a petrol one up for (£49K ish?)

I suppose the point I am trying to make is that the boat is worth what it is worth. IMHO (again) you can't just call out "knock him 25% off" without factoring the type of boat, how desirable it is, what he's asking for it and what spec it is.

To take the extremes, a 40ft old American boat with petrol engines and rampaging osmossis up for £100,000 and 25% off might be no where near enough. On the other hand a clean Princess V42 with the right spec and engines also up for £100,000 and most people would happily pay the asking price! Its not about percentages, it is about what the boat is really worth, and what someone should really be paying for it.

I just think that people are coming on here in all good faith for a bit of sensible advice, not to be told "knock a quarter of the price off mate" without knowing the facts. It isn't helpful.

Sorry if that offends anyone, just my HO!

Donning flameproof suit!! <G>

Ari.

 

[DepSol]

My mate is selling his Targa 30 twin diesels 1 year old for £89k full service history!

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

I cant fault what you say but its not about what the boat is 'worth'. Its about what you can buy that particular boat for at that particular time from that particular owner and it would be stupid to pay more. Any serious seller would try to open a negotiation even from a low offer position but simply to dismiss the prospective buyer out of hand would be crass
Yeah, OK, the probability is that a figure around £60k would get the boat but, you as the buyer would at least know you have'nt paid over the odds in that particular situation

 

[oldgit]

O cruel world.Unlike something useful/neccesary like a car on which some sort of residual value can be placed.Most boats are playthings which suck up even more money when sitting idle than when moving.Unlike the car which can be popped into the garage when its owner has lost interest/frightened himself/his crew silly with it,our jolly little boat has to be moored and insured.As I am fully aware being in the process of both buying and selling. a boat is worth no more than what the buyer is prepared to pay for it.It is a buyers market.Ps.is this Ok Barry.(private joke)

 

[longjohnsilver]

True story

The first boat I bought years ago was a Boston Whaler Montauk 16'. The boat was only 1 year old and the chap selling it was only asking about half the new price + it was extremely well equiped for a small boat, vhf (which I still have 15 years later, having moved it onto my fourth boat!), decca, paper sounder etc etc + a hallmark roller coaster trailer.

The price was a gift and I offered him quite gladly the asking price. When I met him and paid for the boat he told me of another chap who was interested and offered £400 less than the asking price. Naturally Tony (the vendor) said no. 15 minutes later the phone went again and the same chap offered the full price. Tony asked why he hadn't done this the first time round and this chap said that as a matter of principle he never offered the asking price. Tony's response to this was that as a matter of principle he would not sell it to that chap, and told him to sod off!!

This all happened before I appeared as a prospective buyer, so his misfortune was my good luck. Moral of the story is that if you really believe something is worth the asking price, then pay it.

I kept the boston Whaler (a super little boat, probably the best of its type you can buy) for a year or so and sold her for 50% more than I paid!! (Less the vhf!!) Still can't believe my luck, and I got a good year or more use out of her.