Broadband Radar integration.

[Martin_J]

To the OP regarding the Vulcan.. I seem to think the smaller Vulcan 7 doesn't have an ethernet port, so can't show radar. You would have to go for the larger screen Vulcan to be radar futureproof.

I, like a few others above use the B&G Zeus Touch plotters.. I have both 7 and 8" which do both have ethernet so either one (or both) can display radar.

Regarding the 3G radome - I like the fact that it is instant on but more importantly, it uses much less power than the older magnetron radomes.

Also, like others have said, due to B&G, Simrad and Lowrance being under one large Navico umbrella, my Simrad 3G Radome is quite happy to work over ethernet to the B&G plotters.

Also - Note that you can use these Navico radomes without even turning the plotter on. The ethernet multicast by the radome is viewable on OpenCPN with the Navico BR24 plugin. I don't use it this way because I prefer the reliability of a plotter - but it seemed to work well when I tested it out.

 

[bitbaltic]

Oops! Martin is right about the Ethernet port on the Vulcan 7. There isn't one, I hadn't realised (and am amazed by!) that. So it's a non-starter. You'd have to go for the 9 inch version.

Makes the Zeus an even better idea imho.

 

[Martin_J]

I only realised the Vulcan 7 didn't have ethernet/radar facility when I thought about adding one as an extra spare display above the companionway... so I didn't go with that as a spare display.

 

[knuterikt]

One ting to consider (on a sailing vessel) is power consumption..
Raymarine RD418D: 40 W (20 W Standby), range 48nm
Raymarine Quantum™ CHIRP Radar: Transmit mode 17W, standby mode 7W, sleep mode 2W, range 24nm

 

[The Folkboat Melody]

It would help if you told us what the exact budget is

I'm not familiar with the Nasa instruments, and I think it might be the case that only the clipper wind has an NMEA output. If you have one of these, there may be value in connecting it to your plotter in order to get True Wind, which I believe the Nasa unit does not do as it requires a seperate repeater fed by both the clipper wind instrument and a gps (!!?).

The rest of it is/probably is stand alone. As Jonathan says there is no point in connecting the GPS to your plotter as the plotter has internal GPS.

To connect any of your existing stuff to the plotter you are going to need an 0183>N2K bridge of some sort and you haven't mentioned which one you're looking at. I repeat my caution about the single N2K port on the Vulcan. These plotters are essentially designed to be drop-fed from an N2K backbone, and if you want to connect multiple things to it (be they N2K or 0813 devices), you are going to have to build a backbone and perhaps purchase multiple 0183>N2K converters, or a multiplexer. This could become very expensive, and is part of the reason why I mentioned the Zeus, because with its own 0183 port it is possibly capable of avoiding some or all of that expense. There's no free lunch in marine electronics- the Vulcan is cheaper than the Zeus because it is able to do less, so it is important to think through the whole system in order to discover which is cheaper in the long run.

Going transatlantic I certainly would want to be able to make a DSC call from an AIS target on my plotter, so integrating a DSC VHF (like the B&GV50 I mentioned) would be quite high on my to-do list. What VHF do you have, or plan to have?

The Simrad NSS7 which Jonathan mentions (and which incidentally I have too) is the Simrad equivalent to the (original) B&G Zeus. Picking up on the point he makes about wifi, one of the changes from first generation (NSS/Zeus) to second generation (NSSevo2/Zeus2) of these plotters is the addition of wifi, so that would work in just the same way as the vulcan with nothing extra needed to connect to your ipad.

You also haven't mentioned whether you want an electronic autopilot or not, and if so which one. Most people with your plans would, (and I think a tiller pilot would be fine for a folkboat). The reason I have been asking about wind integration is because it is very handy to have both the steer-to-waypoint and steer-to-wind options available to an autopilot, and therefore you need to get wind data onto whatever bus the autopilot gets its data from.

Because the radar will connect to the ethernet port of the plotter all of this is really independent of that debate, beyond how you divvy up the budget. If you want it for a transatlantic I poersonally wouldn't go to the expense until going transatlantic (and possibly not even then if I had AIS fitted).

Funds immediately available are around 3k, for that I'd hoped to get radar on board integrated, along with the relevant instruments into a decent chartplotter with my existing ipad running off a wifi connection, not sure if i need it now but I've been promised a rate compass as my retirement present, (Simrad RC42), but I've just checked online and they've been discontinued, as you say, technology moves on!
I have a tillerpilot but it's over 10 years old and doesn't even have an input connection, Melody has windvane self steering so not sure if the autopilot is a priority.
I'm taking it for granted that i'll need some sort of converter, I've burnt a bit of midnight oil over the course of trying to get this together but there seems to be a wide variety of different options, Digital Yacht seems to be a respected name, but again, I'm here to learn so I'd appreciate input on what constitutes a reliable 'backbone' system.
My VHF is an Icom IC-M421 with DSC, about 5 years old now but perfectly serviceable, hadn't thought that the Plotter has GPS on board, wow, redundancy, that's a bonus.
Taking on board everyones input about the AIS, I've been talking to Cactus today who recommended the Vesta Marine XPA 8000 unit, at almost £700 its dearer than some but has it's own wifi apparently, not sure if thats a selling point with the plotters wifi there already but it's an option.
One of the features I liked on the Vulcan was the forward looking sonar but with the sensor at over £450 I think thats definitely one for the future, given that info the Zeus starts to look more attractive, daft really but I like the scroll wheel feature! and I've just found the Zeus2 on Cactus with the Cmap freebie at just under a grand.
The Nasa Windex unit is the wind strength/direction, (also apparently the temp and baro pressure feed) and works on 0183, the rate compass, if we go that route, is NMEA 2K.
Must admit that electronic autopilot sounds good but with the wind vane steering already installed (an unknown quantity until I get it on the water) not sure if I want to complicate matters any more than they already are, (I served my time on Morris 1000's tha knows!)

Thanks again.

Derek

 

[bitbaltic]

Funds immediately available are around 3k, for that I'd hoped to get radar on board integrated, along with the relevant instruments into a decent chartplotter with my existing ipad running off a wifi connection, not sure if i need it now but I've been promised a rate compass as my retirement present, (Simrad RC42), but I've just checked online and they've been discontinued, as you say, technology moves on!
I have a tillerpilot but it's over 10 years old and doesn't even have an input connection, Melody has windvane self steering so not sure if the autopilot is a priority.
I'm taking it for granted that i'll need some sort of converter, I've burnt a bit of midnight oil over the course of trying to get this together but there seems to be a wide variety of different options, Digital Yacht seems to be a respected name, but again, I'm here to learn so I'd appreciate input on what constitutes a reliable 'backbone' system.
My VHF is an Icom IC-M421 with DSC, about 5 years old now but perfectly serviceable, hadn't thought that the Plotter has GPS on board, wow, redundancy, that's a bonus.
Taking on board everyones input about the AIS, I've been talking to Cactus today who recommended the Vesta Marine XPA 8000 unit, at almost £700 its dearer than some but has it's own wifi apparently, not sure if thats a selling point with the plotters wifi there already but it's an option.
One of the features I liked on the Vulcan was the forward looking sonar but with the sensor at over £450 I think thats definitely one for the future, given that info the Zeus starts to look more attractive, daft really but I like the scroll wheel feature! and I've just found the Zeus2 on Cactus with the Cmap freebie at just under a grand.
The Nasa Windex unit is the wind strength/direction, (also apparently the temp and baro pressure feed) and works on 0183, the rate compass, if we go that route, is NMEA 2K.
Must admit that electronic autopilot sounds good but with the wind vane steering already installed (an unknown quantity until I get it on the water) not sure if I want to complicate matters any more than they already are, (I served my time on Morris 1000's tha knows!)

Thanks again.

Derek

I can't really advise on the radar or the rate compasses as I've never had one. However, in that budget, an example system that would work with the things you have/want would be as follows:

I'd still prefer the Zeus plotter- but Cactus have a bundle deal on the Vulcan9 with 3G radar and C-Map cartofraphy so that's £2100

Your VHF is receive-only (GPS position) and your wind instrument is transmit only, and that's the only NMEA0183 you need to handle. For this I suggest the Simrad AT10 Universal converter which has three advantages, a) its the cheapest converter on the market and b) it will definitely work with B&G stuff and c) you can daisy chain another n2k device into it.

AT10 £120 (maybe less) and a micro-C to simnet cable (the AT10 uses a different type of socket to the chartplotter) £30. You may need to power the AT10 from a N2K bus, which would add a little more expense, but I'm not totally sure about that.

Connect the input of the Icom VHF to the 0183 output of the AT10 and the 0183 input of the AT10 to the output from the Nasa wind instrument (all 4800 baud).

The XB8000 (I think that's what you mean) is a transponder, so you both transmit and receive AIS, which is basically why it is quite expensive. You would connect it into the above system with another micro-c to simnet cable to the AT10's daisy chain port. £30 for the cable and £700 for the transponder. I don't know much about transponders- the need for wifi on it depends on what data it transmits over wifi. I'm not sure if the Vulcan will transmit AIS on its wifi or not, so for that it might be useful to have a wifi-enabled AIS transponder. Or it may not.

So that is one way to get radar, AIS, wifi (both on the AIS and plotter- but you will only be able to connect to one at a time) and integrate your existing instruments for about £2980, so on budget. If you wanted to include a basic autopilot like the Simrad tiller pilots (TP22 for example) you could connect it via 0183 from the AT10 output alongside the VHF (this is how mine is connected to my N2K plotter). This also keeps the sonar option open.

There is more than one way to skin a cat of course, and you could build a system around the zeus similarly.

Edit: Great FB page btw, duly followed.

 

[The Folkboat Melody]

I can't really advise on the radar or the rate compasses as I've never had one. However, in that budget, an example system that would work with the things you have/want would be as follows:

I'd still prefer the Zeus plotter- but Cactus have a bundle deal on the Vulcan9 with 3G radar and C-Map cartofraphy so that's £2100

Your VHF is receive-only (GPS position) and your wind instrument is transmit only, and that's the only NMEA0183 you need to handle. For this I suggest the Simrad AT10 Universal converter which has three advantages, a) its the cheapest converter on the market and b) it will definitely work with B&G stuff and c) you can daisy chain another n2k device into it.

AT10 £120 (maybe less) and a micro-C to simnet cable (the AT10 uses a different type of socket to the chartplotter) £30. You may need to power the AT10 from a N2K bus, which would add a little more expense, but I'm not totally sure about that.

Connect the input of the Icom VHF to the 0183 output of the AT10 and the 0183 input of the AT10 to the output from the Nasa wind instrument (all 4800 baud).

The XB8000 (I think that's what you mean) is a transponder, so you both transmit and receive AIS, which is basically why it is quite expensive. You would connect it into the above system with another micro-c to simnet cable to the AT10's daisy chain port. £30 for the cable and £700 for the transponder. I don't know much about transponders- the need for wifi on it depends on what data it transmits over wifi. I'm not sure if the Vulcan will transmit AIS on its wifi or not, so for that it might be useful to have a wifi-enabled AIS transponder. Or it may not.

So that is one way to get radar, AIS, wifi (both on the AIS and plotter- but you will only be able to connect to one at a time) and integrate your existing instruments for about £2980, so on budget. If you wanted to include a basic autopilot like the Simrad tiller pilots (TP22 for example) you could connect it via 0183 from the AT10 output alongside the VHF (this is how mine is connected to my N2K plotter). This also keeps the sonar option open.

There is more than one way to skin a cat of course, and you could build a system around the zeus similarly.

Edit: Great FB page btw, duly followed.

Wow! thats a bundle of info!!!
I'm a bit blown away by it all, I'd hoped to get all that but, having seen the costs of various things thought it would be a long time before I could afford it, that said, I've been quite influenced by the comments I've had on here about the radar to the point of wondering if I should.
I'm in a bit of a quandary now, on the one hand I can have the setup you have very thoughtfully laid out , amazing really. Two other thoughts, I'm impressed with your apparent depth of knowledge so your recommendation of the Zeus influenced me to check out the deals available, on Cactus with the Zeus 7 with B&G 4G radar and Cmap bundle for £2900, (I'd done a few comparisons previously and spoken to some people on our moorings who have Simrad setups (Fishing boats) and feel it's worth holding out for
the 4G). obviously that wipes out the entire budget for the moment.
Alternative would be to fit everything but the radome from your setup and substitute the Zeus7 for the Vulcan 9, (would love the bigger screen but needs must) which would be well inside the budget and leave a reserve to add to for the future purchase of a 4G radome as and when. That gets me the plotter, quality AIS and wifi for my ipad and isailor (and possibly a tillerpilot linked to the rate compass)

Look at me, I sound like I know what I'm talking about, thanks to you guys now I know (most of) the questions to ask.

Thank you all

Derek

Thanks for the comments about The Folkboat Melody Facebook page, glad you liked it, I'll keep it updated as I go.

 

[pvb]

With plotters, I always reckon that screen size is paramount, so in your case, with the options you seem to be exploring, I'd go for the Vulcan 9. This also has integral wifi, allowing you to view and control the plotter from your tablet. I believe the Zeus2 7 needs an additional wifi module (£180 or so) to make it wifi functional. And remember that a 9" screen is 60% or so bigger than a 7" screen.

I'd go for 3G radar. I'm sure 4G radar is excellent, but I really believe that 3G will more than meet your needs.

Rather than spend £700 on a fancy AIS transceiver, I'd save £500 and buy a straightforward AIS receiver to feed your plotter.

You keep mentioning a rate compass, but this is primarily for optimising the performance of MARPA. With an AIS receiver, I find that MARPA isn't as useful as it used to be in olden times, so you might not need to buy a rate compass at all.

You should certainly buy an autopilot, and try to interface it to your Nasa wind display (which should output the NMEA0183 MWV sentence) as well as to your plotter.

 

[Neeves]

I'll confess my total ignorance:

What is a rate compass? We have a fluxgate compass, integrated into our Simrad array, including the 3G radar. We have little commercial traffic and have never used MARPA.

Jonathan

 

[grumpy_o_g]

I'll confess my total ignorance:

What is a rate compass? We have a fluxgate compass, integrated into our Simrad array, including the 3G radar. We have little commercial traffic and have never used MARPA.

Jonathan

A rate compass measures the rate at which the heading is changing - strictly speaking the rate part of it's not really a compass, just a yaw sensor but they often have a fluxgate compass built in as well so that you get both heading and a very accurate rate of change of heading. That's especially important for autopilots and radars as they can use that rate of change information to see how much of a heading change is really just due to the bow swinging about in a sea and how much is actually the boat's underlying heading (and it's track) changing. The algorithms used to damp out those unwanted corrections are remarkably complex and clever these days - it's fascinating to me as this sort thing was leading edge military tech when was working on avionics in the '70's and '80's and is now not just commercially available but not that expensive either (at least until you put "Marine" in front of the part description).

 

[Neeves]

Thanks Grumpy, we live and learn.

Jonathan

 

[RobbieH]

I've got a 2 plotter setup, lowrance hds7m at the chart table with a b&g zeus 2 and a couple of Tritons on deck. 3G radar and the whole lot is interlinked with the lowrance ethernet switch so I can put the chart chips in the plotter below and share the chart and radar data to the b&g. Navico wifi complètes it so I can use a tablet as well, useful if I'm in my bunk and want to check what the proximity alarm that has just gone off means (rather than relying on vague assurances from the crew that "we should pass just ahead of him" !).

Re. The conversions I kept the old depth and wind instruments (Navman) and convert them using Actisense NGW-1s. I might have been able to do that via the plotter(s) but I didn't want to be forced into having one or other of the plotters switched on if I just wanted wind/depth data. The NGW is a nice piece of kit, I'm also getting the usb output version so I can debug the n2k/0183 on my laptop. Oh and 0183 output to the Autohelm so I get sailbywind that way.

Downside is current draw but I've got an efoy fuel cell which manages to keep up with the whole ensemble pretty well.

This boat sometimes feels like an electronics lab for the next boat I'm pretty happy with the whole setup really. Ping me if you want any further info. The two hardest parts were a) parting with the cash and b) the cable runs to get power, n2k and ethernet up a grab pole on the chart table, through the headlining and into the instrument garage on deck.

 

[Neeves]

I can feel for the issues of installation.

I'd mention that the radar cable, broadband - but I assume others as well, has the flexibility of a game fishing rod and is inordinately difficult to fashion and feed through corners. Its a job for 2 people with inordinate patience - not made easy as one person is half way up a mast for part of the time.

But its not actually difficult, or does not require great mental powers (a monkey might actually be able to do it better than most (as they are used to being up trees). So you can save lots by installing yourself and the Navico instructions are good, or simple.

The really satisfying part is that after all the anguish of installation (and spending the money) ours worked first try and has been problem free since.

Jonathan

 

[macd]

Broadband radar (we have the 4G) is great, but it's not the revolution it's advertised to be. It's supposed to have revolutionary short range resolution but poor range -- in fact neither is really true. Short range resolution is really good and range is fine out to 20 miles and more.

We've had 3G for a couple of years, and I'd agree with that. Long-range capability is far better than many people suggest. Ours, which is fitted about 7m above water, easily reaches 24 miles, which is beyond any targets I care much about. Having become used to an old JRC mgnetron set, I found the short-range capabilities staggering, with non of the close-quarters clutter of conventional radar. It even picks up swimming area markers less than 50m away. But perhaps the biggest advantage on a craft as small as the OP's is the tiny current draw: just 18W (20W on the 4G). The 'instant-on' is handy, too: when you really need it, it's there at the press of a key.

Prior to fitting 3G, one of my concerns (cf grumpy's comments about picking up storm cells), was that it might not be so good for that. In fact we've found it just fine, and have dodged a few big ones as a result. Of course it would be even better if all storms cells were equipped with AIS...