British Registry - What is it all about?

[machone]

I have just revived/renewed the registry on my boat. I was looking forward to the certificate arriving as it is the same SSR no. & boat that my Father owned and that we holidayed on 30 years ago. It was nice to get the certificate, which is the same format as in the 70s. However, the old one came with a plastic booklet with the British Registry on the front - official looking for presenting in foreign places. The new one comes laminated. I managed to stuff it in one side of the old wallet but couldn't find anywhere to buy a new wallet - does one exist?

I started thinking about the registry system. On a charter in Italy a couple of years ago there were red ensigns everywhere. Most of the boats I saw in Italy didn't have any British nationals aboard & I was told by an Italian 'it was a tax thing'. I like the history and tradition associated with flags at sea. I am aware of the demise of the British merchant navy partly to do with costs associated being regulated and registered in the UK. So how does it work that many huge pleasure craft have red ensigns 'for tax reasons' but many merchant vessels have flags from far off less regulated countries?

What does it all mean!?

 

[Tranona]

Whatever you want it to mean - but in reality registration simply confirms the nationality of the ship. There is a set of criteria the owner has to meet to register the ship. For the SSR it is residence based and relies on self declaration. For Part 1, nationality of owner is a key criterion, but the owner can be a corporate body so may not be the same nationality as the beneficial owner. There does not need to be any connection between the nationality of the boat and the people on it - the two are entirely separate.

There are no "tax advantages" only that some states levy taxes related to boats on their registers and some owners may prefer to register their boat under a different flag to avoid such taxes. There are many other reasons why one might register under a different flag, particularly in relation to crewing and surveys form certain types of leisure craft.

In our cosmopolitan world, the notion that everybody in the UK is British is just not real and many people qualify to have a boat on the British register even when the boat is not in the UK and the owners does not necessarily live in the UK. Equally there are many British people who are UK resident who own boats that are on the British register, but have never been anywhere near the UK.

The little bit of plastic for the SSR and the bigger bit of plastic for Part 1 do their job insofar as they enable owners to take their boats to other countries without difficulty - just like a passport..

 

[JumbleDuck]

On a charter in Italy a couple of years ago there were red ensigns everywhere. Most of the boats I saw in Italy didn't have any British nationals aboard & I was told by an Italian 'it was a tax thing'. I like the history and tradition associated with flags at sea. I am aware of the demise of the British merchant navy partly to do with costs associated being regulated and registered in the UK. So how does it work that many huge pleasure craft have red ensigns 'for tax reasons' but many merchant vessels have flags from far off less regulated countries?

Were they real red ensigns or the defaced versions from tax havens like Gibraltar, Jersey, Guernsey and the Isle of Man?

 

[machone]

Whatever you want it to mean - but in reality registration simply confirms the nationality of the ship.

The little bit of plastic for the SSR and the bigger bit of plastic for Part 1 do their job insofar as they enable owners to take their boats to other countries without difficulty - just like a passport..

So is the bigger bit of plastic with the part 1 when you get a passport like wallet? Probably worth the extra 25 in that case.

There were a few with defaced ensigns but also many non defaced. What, in the case of a ship built in Italy with a foreign crew, does the ship nationality mean? Even in this cosmopolitan world which I enjoy I have difficulty with a ships nationality if the people on it have no association with that nation.

 

[Bru]

For the SSR they do check UK residency of the declared owner(s), as I found out when I put our co-owner down as c/o our address

The application bounced and we had to send proof of his address before we could complete the transfer

 

[Spyro]

I wonder if Alex Salmond has thought about this one?

 

[Tranona]

So is the bigger bit of plastic with the part 1 when you get a passport like wallet? Probably worth the extra 25 in that case.

There were a few with defaced ensigns but also many non defaced. What, in the case of a ship built in Italy with a foreign crew, does the ship nationality mean? Even in this cosmopolitan world which I enjoy I have difficulty with a ships nationality if the people on it have no association with that nation.

When I go to Cherbourg from Poole on the Fast Cat, it flies the Singapore ensign, but is owned by an Anglo-French company, crew will be sometimes French and sometimes British or Australian. Passengers could be of any nationality.

There is nothing new about there being a difference in nationality between ships and their occupants. It just reflects the constant tension between nationality and freedom of movement.

 

[Roberto]

I saw in Italy didn't have any British nationals aboard & I was told by an Italian 'it was a tax thing'.

Beside the "tax thing", a very big reason is regulations, and I am being told by Spanish friends it's the same case in Spain.

Boating regulations in Italy are a *nightmare*, a nonsensical nightmare I should add. There are endless rules, of which a good number are totally stupid, and about 10 different authorities that can make controls and often levy fines to boats: Coast Guard, Guardia di Finanza, Police, Carabinieri, but also Forestry Authority (!), Penitentiary Corps, National Parks authority, etc etc.

Example: one must have a "certified deviation curve" for the compass: only approved technicians can do it, about half an hour job (some do not even leave the pontoon, talk of deviation curve), cost 2-300 euro.
Or on the other hand, Italy has issued about 100 Short Range Certificate (yes, 100ish, compared to several tens of thousands in the UK, or 120-130 thousands in France) because rules are so complicated that you need a 10 member commission for the exam, which is only held in Rome (and where obviously one *never* finds the 10 examinators).
...and on and on...
.
If one of the (few?) advantages of Europe is being able to lawfully choose a different set of regulations, then why not.

 

[Tranona]

Were they real red ensigns or the defaced versions from tax havens like Gibraltar, Jersey, Guernsey and the Isle of Man?

Very little to do with those territories being considered as "tax havens". They are part of the Red Ensign group of registers, but they exist primarily because they accept boats and owners which would not be eligible to go on the UK register. For particular people this is a big advantage, for example many US owned charter yachts are on this type of register because the manning requirements are much less restrictive than on the US register. On the other hand it can be negative for some owners as the boat would be considered non EU by some EU states and may be subject to restrictive usage.

As roberto explained the regulations governing small boat registration in some countries is Byzantine in its complexity, never mind the tax potential, so not surprising people find ways of registering their boats elsewhere.

 

[doug748]

Were they real red ensigns or the defaced versions from tax havens like Gibraltar, Jersey, Guernsey and the Isle of Man?

Sad to say, registration with a number of the smaller "island" members of the Red Ensign Group does not entitle you to fly a
defaced local ensign. You have to be resident.

I was most miffed because I picked one up in a charity shop and thought it would add a bit of panache.

 

[JumbleDuck]

Sad to say, registration with a number of the smaller "island" members of the Red Ensign Group does not entitle you to fly a
defaced local ensign. You have to be resident.

What ensign do they fly, then? Are there non-red ones for non-residents?

 

[Stork_III]

Sad to say, registration with a number of the smaller "island" members of the Red Ensign Group does not entitle you to fly a
defaced local ensign. You have to be resident.

I was most miffed because I picked one up in a charity shop and thought it would add a bit of panache.

Jersey seems to allow the defaced red to be flown by any Jersey registered vessel "without exception". http://news.bbc.co.uk/local/jersey/hi/people_and_places/the_states/newsid_8757000/8757108.stm

 

[doug748]

Some do, some don't. This is the guidance from the Red Ensign Group:


"Can I fly a local defaced version of the Red Ensign on my vessel?

This depends on the requirements of the individual Red Ensign registry with which your vessel is registered, and updated advice should be sought directly from the registrar."


It later seems to suggest that if you have a Royal Warrant, or a note from your mum, you may be entitled. I am not that fussed, I have now picked off the defaced bit but you can still see the shadow.

So I now have a Red Ensign - little bit defaced. Royal Yacht Squadron here I come.

 

[Tranona]

Some do, some don't. This is the guidance from the Red Ensign Group:


"Can I fly a local defaced version of the Red Ensign on my vessel?

This depends on the requirements of the individual Red Ensign registry with which your vessel is registered, and updated advice should be sought directly from the registrar."


It later seems to suggest that if you have a Royal Warrant, or a note from your mum, you may be entitled. I am not that fussed, I have now picked off the defaced bit but you can still see the shadow.

So I now have a Red Ensign - little bit defaced. Royal Yacht Squadron here I come.

Confusion here about the meaning of "defaced". The ensigns in the Red Ensign group apart from the British are all "defaced" in the senses that they are modified in some way from the plain British one.

That advice refers to ensigns that are specific to certain clubs, for example the rCIYC whose members may apply for a warrant to fly a defaced ensign. You cannot do this I believe if you club is not resident in the territory.

 

[machone]

Flags - funny old things, usually I apply the rule 'where there's a flag there's a f****w**', largely down to my experiences in Northern Ireland. Having said that, I thought with floating vessels things were different, didn't a flag previously mean something? Jolly Roger - pirate, red ensign on yacht - not too stuck up yachty or merchant navy, blue - shouty yachty or Navy, defaced blue - snooty shouty yachty. Now, it seems, a bit like Starbucks and google, it could be tax, it could be rules but it's not Nationality. This is speaking as a Brit living abroad with a Dutch boat that was built in the UK. Preference wise I would like to fly the red ensign as I am a Brit and it's my boat but strictly speaking I should probably fly a tricolor of some sort but that would be odd, wouldn't it?

 

[doug748]

Confusion here about the meaning of "defaced". The ensigns in the Red Ensign group apart from the British are all "defaced" in the senses that they are modified in some way from the plain British one.

That advice refers to ensigns that are specific to certain clubs, for example the rCIYC whose members may apply for a warrant to fly a defaced ensign. You cannot do this I believe if you club is not resident in the territory.

Yes, riddle wrapped in a mystery.

I think this sums up the matter:

You cannot "legally" fly a Guernsey Defaced Ensign on your boat unless the boat is Guernsey registered and you have a residential address on the island.

I know this because I rang up the registrar and asked, last year.

I understand this is the case for other category 2 registers.

 

[Spyro]

Legally???? It's a flag FFS, fly what you want. has anyone ever been charged with flying the wrong flag.

 

[Tranona]

Legally???? It's a flag FFS, fly what you want. has anyone ever been charged with flying the wrong flag.

Yes.

 

[Tranona]

Yes, riddle wrapped in a mystery.

I think this sums up the matter:

You cannot "legally" fly a Guernsey Defaced Ensign on your boat unless the boat is Guernsey registered and you have a residential address on the island.

I know this because I rang up the registrar and asked, last year.

I understand this is the case for other category 2 registers.

You do not have to be resident if you are a British national, but if owned by a company, the company has to be resident in the territory. There is no residential requirement for a British national according to their website.

Little advantage for a British National to use such registers, but clearly advantages for qualifying non nationals (or their companies).

 

[doug748]

You do not have to be resident if you are a British national, but if owned by a company, the company has to be resident in the territory. There is no residential requirement for a British national according to their website.

Little advantage for a British National to use such registers, but clearly advantages for qualifying non nationals (or their companies).

Well, there we are.

Another mysteriously self regarding missive from planet Zog. Perhaps you should let the registrar know where he is going wrong