Brexit

[Metabarca]

"obviously the UK negotiators will argue for the best deal possible for the UK and those on the EU side will argue for the best for the balance of the countries remaining."
Which makes it 27 to 1. Who's going to come out the winner?

"at least the UK will not be dictated to by a bunch of incompetents from Brussels.
Ah, the joy of being dictated to by a bunch of incompetents in London!

 

[chinita]

Of course it is all guess work, the Brexit team have absolutely no plan for the future and I suspect if the vote is to leave there is going to be one hell of a panic

The Brexit team is not the Brexit party. The Brexit team does not form the Government.

 

[RAI]

I have noticed this claim many times and wonder just how in heck anyone is supposed to be able to provide details of what life will be like outside the EU when the negotiations have not even began. Of course those who wish to remain in will come up with all kinds of scare stories which have absolutely no basis in reality.

Does this mean that all leaps-in-the-dark have happy endings?

Gives me a rather queasy feeling when I read or hear someone claim that the UK should remain in because it gives them some minor benefit such as traveling to France without a visa especially when I think of the thousands who died fighting in WW I and II to keep the UK from being dominated by another country.

Oddly it was all that war time fighting and dying that made Churchill, for one, favour the European dream.

Surely the right to change the government every five years is worth something more important than some minor personal inconvenience - has anyone ever contemplated changing the "powers to be" in Brussels?

Better, we get to choose two parliaments every five years. It is our elected leaders who choose the Eurocrats every 5 years. A bit like our elected leaders choose our PM, but unlike the way that our UK bureaucrats are chosen, who are in it for life, or at least, until their excellent pensions kick-in. So the EU is more democratic than the UK.

 

[Tranona]

The Brexit team is not the Brexit party. The Brexit team does not form the Government.

Exactly. It is a vote on a principle, not on a set of government policies as in a party manifesto. It is parliament that will decide how to deal with the outcome as it is the only body that can decide policy - although of course it may need to a general election to establish a government in sympathy with the decision.

 

[macd]

although of course it may need to a general election to establish a government in sympathy with the decision.

But electorates are unpredictable. Such an election could return a government not in sympathy with the decision. Surprised no-one has yet produced a drama based on such a premise. Could make excellent TV, if a quirky way to run a country.

 

[prv]

the thousands who died fighting in WW I and II to keep the UK from being dominated by another country.

So which other country is currently dominating us?

Pete

 

[RAI]

So which other country is currently dominating us?

The USA maybe, they whistle, we woof, after Brexit even more so.

 

[maxi77]

The Brexit team is not the Brexit party. The Brexit team does not form the Government.

And that is exactly the problem. All they have is a very vague idea of independence and have no idea how to actually do it, and intend to leave it all to some one else. Who would vote for a bunch of goons like that

 

[longjohnsilver]

Why shouldn't someone vote for a selfish reason, surely that's what democracy is all about. If something affects me personally I have the right to vote accordingly. All those voting out because of immigration are also taking a selfish viewpoint, but that's considered acceptable.

 

[Niander]

But I digress. All the intelligent educated specialists say that leaving would be harmful to the economy. Good enough for me.

You mean all the so called experts... They are in the governments pocket or the Eu's

 

[Tranona]

And that is exactly the problem. All they have is a very vague idea of independence and have no idea how to actually do it, and intend to leave it all to some one else. Who would vote for a bunch of goons like that

You are not voting for any particular party, person or group of people. That is why it is a simple yes/no vote. It is then up to parliament to put forward proposals for firstly how it is going to implement the will of the people and if the current government does not get support for their proposals then it is likely that there will be a general election when each party will have to propose policies in their manifesto. Then you have a choice.

Highly unlikely that any party would propose going against the outcome of the referendum but will set out how they are going to deal with the key issues that are currently being raised in the debate.

 

[maxi77]

You are not voting for any particular party, person or group of people. That is why it is a simple yes/no vote. It is then up to parliament to put forward proposals for firstly how it is going to implement the will of the people and if the current government does not get support for their proposals then it is likely that there will be a general election when each party will have to propose policies in their manifesto. Then you have a choice.

Highly unlikely that any party would propose going against the outcome of the referendum but will set out how they are going to deal with the key issues that are currently being raised in the debate.

If that is the case why would any one wih any sense vote out whn ther is no clear policy just an undefined idea

 

[chinita]

And that is exactly the problem. All they have is a very vague idea of independence and have no idea how to actually do it, and intend to leave it all to some one else. Who would vote for a bunch of goons like that

You are not voting for a bunch of goons! Show me were there is a name you can put a X against. You can't, because there are no names. It is simply Remain or Leave.

From the debate last night it seemed to me that Leave were the only side actually focussing on the simple principles; they know that it will be up to the Government of the day to enact the referendum decision - whatever it is.

I am not sure if it is ignorance or stubbornness which makes remain advocates suggest that after a Brexit vote we will end up with some sort of draconian domineering Cabinet of Johnson, Rees-Mogg, Gove, Stuart, Galloway, Farage and now, Dennis Skinner! It is pure fantasy.

 

[maxi77]

You are not voting for a bunch of goons! Show me were there is a name you can put a X against. You can't, because there are no names. It is simply Remain or Leave.

From the debate last night it seemed to me that Leave were the only side actually focussing on the simple principles; they know that it will be up to the Government of the day to enact the referendum decision - whatever it is.

I am not sure if it is ignorance or stubbornness which makes remain advocates suggest that after a Brexit vote we will end up with some sort of draconian domineering Cabinet of Johnson, Rees-Mogg, Gove, Stuart, Galloway, Farage and now, Dennis Skinner! It is pure fantasy.

OK you may not be actually voting for the goons but you are supporting their crazy views that the whole nation should take this amazing leap into the unknown. As for the future cabinet Bojo, Gove and Farage (which is realistic) would be bad enough

 

[RAI]

How do the Brexiteers see this immigration reduction thing happening?
There are:
Illegal immigrants - which we can already chuck out, unless they are refugees, though knowing where to chuck them is usually an issue.
Refugees - we signed up to the UN on how to treat them (hard to be inhuman).
Non-EU migrants, if we could stop them, we could do it now but we don't, why not?
EU-migrants resident before Brexit, do we throw them out, wait until they are out of work and then throw them out, give them special residence status, or what?
EU-migrants, those applying for entry after Brexit, will be then like Non-EU migrants, or maybe special status depending on negotiations? A "green card" system?
So how many will be let in, being practical, it won't be zero?

 

[Tony Cross]

How do the Brexiteers see this immigration reduction thing happening?
There are:
Illegal immigrants - which we can already chuck out, unless they are refugees, though knowing where to chuck them is usually an issue.
Refugees - we signed up to the UN on how to treat them (hard to be inhuman).
Non-EU migrants, if we could stop them, we could do it now but we don't, why not?
EU-migrants resident before Brexit, do we throw them out, wait until they are out of work and then throw them out, give them special residence status, or what?
EU-migrants, those applying for entry after Brexit, will be then like Non-EU migrants, or maybe special status depending on negotiations? A "green card" system?
So how many will be let in, being practical, it won't be zero?

A point I've been making to rabid Brexiters here. In theory a UK out of the EU could close the borders, but we all know that no government ever would. We are a nation of immigrants and immigration will continue in or out of the EU. And have the outers thought what would happen if the UK boomed post-EU as they seem to think it will? Every illegal immigrant in Europe will suddenly veer towards the UK.......

 

[RAI]

A point I've been making to rabid Brexiters here. In theory a UK out of the EU could close the borders, but we all know that no government ever would. We are a nation of immigrants and immigration will continue in or out of the EU. And have the outers thought what would happen if the UK boomed post-EU as they seem to think it will? Every illegal immigrant in Europe will suddenly veer towards the UK.......

In the referendum ends in Brexit, there might be three rushes of EU migrants while the free movement of peoples is still in force. The first, for EU citizens already resident in the UK for more than five (or ten) years applying for UK nationality. The second, EU citizens leaving UK for jobs in the EU. The third more EU citizens moving to the UK "while there's still time" and assuming the UK will not throw them out after the divorce is complete.

 

[Tranona]

If that is the case why would any one wih any sense vote out whn ther is no clear policy just an undefined idea

Because the referendum is not about policies. Neither side is talking about future policies, the remain because it is mainly now outside their control, and the leave because their position is all about the principles. The choice is between having more of our lives controlled by unelected EU bodies or taking back more control over our own policies. It is up to parliament to decide how to make use of its new powers in the event of an out vote. As the leave proponents are not pitching for parliament not surprising they can only indicate what is possible.

So the vote is about two different sets of uncertainties, so you have to decide which uncertainty you prefer.

 

[scoty]

For many years/centuries the UK was independent and. OUT of EUrope

 

[maby]

If that is the case why would any one wih any sense vote out whn ther is no clear policy just an undefined idea

There is a clear policy - leave the EU. After that, we will have to work out what to do next. There are far more countries in the world that are not in the EU than are in, so clearly it is possible to get along without it.