Brass screws below the waterline.

J

john_morris_uk

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I was asked to help with the wiring of a boat sometime ago. The boat was a bit of a wreck (to put it mildly) but was being 'restored' by someone I knew through work. It was an old open decked 20' fishing boat with a cuddy and he had found a large second hand diesel engine which he had fitted with some prop of unknown (and uncalculated as far as I am aware) dimensions. The planking and fastenings were dodgy to say the least and he proudly showed me how he had been removing old rusty fastenings below the waterline and replacing them with brass screws. He was full of enthusiasm and very proud of his work but he could see me looking dubious so immediately went into explanations about how brass doesn't rust and if I could just help with the charging system he would be able to launch her soon.

I am still having qualms about not being able to find the words to explain that brass wasn't going to be suitable (but I also know there was no way he would cough up for bronze screws!) I sorted the charging system and went quietly on my way hoping and praying that it didn't spring a plank when he was miles out at sea. My conscience still troubles me that I saw a boat being repaired in a way that was potentially dangerous and yet the repairs and danger would be invisible to any subsequent owner.

What would you have said?
 
'Efficals' at this time of the morn! Sheesh....

So you indicated to him, ever so courteously, you had a concern for his safety. He indicated, perhaps just as courteously, that he would ignore your interest, suggesting he knew better and/or his hubris trumped prudence.

Genesis 4:9: And the LORD said unto Cain, "Where is Abel thy brother?" And he said, "I know not: Am I my brother's keeper?"
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The jury is out on this question:

 
john_morris_uk said:
My conscience still troubles me that I saw a boat being repaired in a way that was potentially dangerous and yet the repairs and danger would be invisible to any subsequent owner.

What would you have said?
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I would have told him that by not using copper nails and roves and/or bronze (replacing like for like) he was jeopardising the integrity of the boat. Furthermore, if he tries to sell the boat and it is surveyed the cost cutting exercise would be exposed and the sale fall through.

The only problem remaining would be the probable fact that there would not be a survey on a boat like this - in which case it is out of your control. You can only hold yourself responsible so far.
 
Some years ago there was an old chap "building" himself a boat in a yard at Pin Mill.

Materials were ordinary DIY type timber for the frames, plywood, possibly WMP, for the hull and deck, all held together with.......... plain steel screws.

Fortunately it was obvious that it would never be completed and put in the water as I might have felt obliged to say something, he was living aboard once he had got some sort of deck on, but spent quite a lot of time in the Butt. !!

Sadly, but probably fortunately, he died long before any launch was likely. I think the yard then had a bonfire.
 
It can take a while for brass to dezincify though. I have a kayak whose entire frame was assembled with brass screws back in 1960, and which is still serviceable. Two things though -- Thing 1 is that of course she's been out of water for far more time that she's been in it; and Thing 2, dezincification has commenced and the heads are swelling under the canvas. Still, fifty-four years isn't at all bad....

I agree with both 30boat's comments -- I would have warned him about the dangers of brass dezincification; and also stainless steel under water can certainly be subject to crevice corrosion. (I also have to say that I've unexpectedly seen stainless steel in air that's been severely rusted -- to the point where it was totally unsafe -- where it had been used in a sulphide-rich environment.)

All materials have their drawbacks in different circumstances, and I think it pays us to learn about the materials, the drawbacks, and the circumstances as much as we can before we use any of them. And I also happen to think that helping someone else learn these things without having to do it by experience is a Good Thing.

Mike
 
30boat said:
Stainless in wet wood is also not good .A wet ,oxigen poor environment will produce crevice corrosion.
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+1

I took some stainless bolts out of Kindred Spirit's rudder fittings which had started life as M12, but reduced down to about 2mm in the middle due to corrosion.

Pete
 
The moral point is what this is about.
I knew a guy who built a 24ft gaffer from a plan in The Boatman. He blew up the lines from the mag and got going. Used construction lumber for strip planking and glassed it over. Had to be dragged ashore after the sea got through the glass and and swelled the pine, causing severe leaks. So he ripped off the glass and reefed out the seams and mastic sealed them. So far so good. Except that some of the cheap pine was getting soft before he launched it. Lived on it for a bit, while trying to sell it. One person quizzed me me about buying it. I gave him the 'plastik bargepole' reply. He did sell it, to a couple of dreamers, who were 'off to cruise the world'. One of them drowned after falling out of the dinghy(pissed). Not a direct result, but I still feel queasy about the whole affair. It was never a safe boat. After the next gale, it was dragged ashore and stripped, then burnt. My input? When I saw he was getting somewhere, I made some of the SS hardware and gave some advice. His comment about the cheap wood, was that he had a fixed budget. There was nothing wrong with his skills, just his ethics on selling it on.
 
Wooden Boat Fittings said:
And some guy's had one too many in the Butt & Oyster and is no longer reading properly as a result.... :)
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1,800 miles from the Butt at the moment.

Perhaps there is a lot in common between exposed brass screws an old wreck of a fishing boat on salt water in Scotland and the screws on a canvas covered Kayak on a freshwater river in Australia.

It just does not seem so to me though. I once made the mistake of using brass to secure the lid of a chart table on my wooden boat. Within two years the heads had completely disintegrated.

I also suspect that the 'brass' of 54 years ago was probably of a far different (and superior) composition to that available to our man in Scotland at his local B&Q.
 
Leighb said:
Some years ago there was an old chap "building" himself a boat in a yard at Pin Mill.

Materials were ordinary DIY type timber for the frames, plywood, possibly WMP, for the hull and deck, all held together with.......... plain steel screws.

Fortunately it was obvious that it would never be completed and put in the water as I might have felt obliged to say something, he was living aboard once he had got some sort of deck on, but spent quite a lot of time in the Butt. !!

Sadly, but probably fortunately, he died long before any launch was likely. I think the yard then had a bonfire.
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I remember that boat and the poor owner. From memory after his death the boat was roughly converted (if that's the right word!) with the addition of what was basically a shed on top. It was then launched and lived on amongst the houseboats for a year or two. I think it has now gone to meet the great boat builder in the sky.
 
Leighb said:
Some years ago there was an old chap "building" himself a boat in a yard at Pin Mill.

Materials were ordinary DIY type timber for the frames, plywood, possibly WMP, for the hull and deck, all held together with.......... plain steel screws.

Fortunately it was obvious that it would never be completed and put in the water as I might have felt obliged to say something, he was living aboard once he had got some sort of deck on, but spent quite a lot of time in the Butt. !!

Sadly, but probably fortunately, he died long before any launch was likely. I think the yard then had a bonfire.
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Well Hotrod used the same sort of materials to build the Flying Hawaiian launched a year ago and still floating. 65 ft long and 32 ft wide.
 
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