Bowman, gybe actions, end to end.

[Channel Sailor]

After a bit of guidance please. Should the Pole be released from the mast ring only first, then that end made on the new guy, then release from the old guy, then secure this Pole end on the mast ring. The spinnaker clews being spaced apart by only the width of the pole for a short while. This what I currently do.

Or

Release the pole at both ends at the same time which means the spinnaker can set wider along the foot?

I can use guys and sheets, or sheets and tweakers if that makes a difference to the answer.

 

[awol]

With sheets and guys the spinnaker is flown on the sheets while the pole is being transferred just as you currently do. No problem with constraining the foot.

 

[flaming]

If you release the mast end only, if your driver / trimmers have made a bit of an error, the pole can end up with a lot of pressure on it and spear the bowman. Learnt that one the hard way...

My method for end to end on single sheets is to trip from the old guy first, then the mast, push the pole across and engage the new guy, then onto the mast ring.

 

[Neil_Y]

I'm with Flaming on what can go wrong, I've also seen a foredeck guy hanging off a pole attached to both clews of the kite as the boat rolled, looked like fun.

To get the old guy to come out of the pole you sometimes need to rotate or pull the pole across so it needs to be clear of the mast first and not attached to the new guy. So mast release, old guy release, new guy attach and then on the mast with a loud shout "MADE" to let the cockpit trimmers know. Remembering to get jib sheets over the pole if you can. Make sure your cockpit knows the problems you might have like downhaul too tight to allow you to push the pole out. Back to the mast can help if the boat's rolling.

 

[bbg]

If you release the mast end only, if your driver / trimmers have made a bit of an error, the pole can end up with a lot of pressure on it and spear the bowman. Learnt that one the hard way...

My method for end to end on single sheets is to trip from the old guy first, then the mast, push the pole across and engage the new guy, then onto the mast ring.

I agree with this, with one caveat. If the driver and trimmer have not done their job, and there is still load on the guy, it can be difficult to get the guy out of the pole end while it is loaded.

So the driver and trimmer have a big role to play. If the guy won't come out (because of the load), you may need to take it off the mast first but (1) be very careful that you are not in the path that the mast-end will take when it comes off the ring; (2) the kite will get a shock from the sudden release of pressure - the tack will swing to leeward and that will affect the stability of the kite.

It has been a long time since I've done foredeck, but I never liked to have the pole attached to both guys at the same time. As you take the old guy out, there is a risk that you will let the new guy out as well (assuming a single trigger wire pulls the pins at both ends of the pole). I much preferred to use flaming's sequence:
- old guy off
- pole off mast
- new guy on
- pole on mast

 

[Channel Sailor]

Thank you all. I'll try the old guy off first technique next time I am out. But will need to think about it a little as I often sail short handed, even single handed. A few days ago there was two of us on board plus a Tiller Pilot, sailing in the Solent westerly from Chichester towards Cowes. I tried the one set of sheets set up plus Tweakers (previously I used Sheets and Guys but fount them too heavy for the light air). I was Bowman and Gybed "end to end " Mast End Off First while crew looked after the main sheet and Tiller Pilot. Tried it maybe four or five times quite successfully and it got much better after the first couple. I was busy looking the other way at the pole but I have a feeling the spinnaker was not flying very well at all while I was manhandling the pole secured between the two tacks. Also was thinking a Bowman needs three hands, one for the pole, one for the release trigger and another to grab the new Guy.

 

[roblpm]

If you release the mast end only, if your driver / trimmers have made a bit of an error, the pole can end up with a lot of pressure on it and spear the bowman. Learnt that one the hard way...

My method for end to end on single sheets is to trip from the old guy first, then the mast, push the pole across and engage the new guy, then onto the mast ring.

Im just thinking that on our tub releasing the guy is sometimes a bit difficult without the pole off the mast? I think the pole is still putting lateral pressure on the guy when we are pointing ddw. Hmmm. Interesting though as it feels a bit dodgy with the pole shooting across when it is taken off the mast.

 

[Foolish Muse]

Channel Sailor, if you are singlehanded then I strongly suggest that you learn the "main first gybing method." It was first described to me by one of the Figaro sailors and I describe it in some detail in my singlehanded tips book. It is the only way that I gybe singlehanded now.

The method is to sail deep and pull the pole back 2/3. Then ease the sheet until the spinnaker clew is about 3 feet from the forestay. Then pull the guy and sheet tweaker lines down, at least to the lifelines or even tighter in high winds. Then steer the boat through the gybe and swing the mainsail over and sail deep in the new direction. At this point you can continue to sail indefinitely with only the tweaker lines controlling the new guy. The pole remains on the old guy/new sheet. I call this "gybing without the pole". I now do this every time I go sailing. In fact I did it last night in a race. It is very handy when short term gybes (to get around a race mark, a buoy or an island, or in a race when you want to move to starboard versus another racer) are necessary. When I've passed the obstacle, I just swing back to the other direction again without ever having moved the pole. Finally, if you want to stay on the new gybe for a longer period, then go to the bow and gybe the pole as others have described above. The tweaker lines on the new guy will keep it within handy reach when you release the old guy from the pole. Here is a diagram I used in my book:

And here is a photo of the spinnaker after having gybed without the pole. With a little practice you'll be able to get it to fly in any wind conditions, up as high as about 100 degrees apparent. It works best when the wind is above 15 knots.

Have fun.

 

[Georgio]

I would second the recommendation for "main first" spinnaker gybing as described by Foolish Muse. There are videos of Figero racers doing this on youtube. I regularly race solo with SORC + DH/crewed racing and will always use this method solo or double handed and sometimes when crewed.

Edit -
The only change I have to the above is that I run Sheets and Guys on both sides. Tweaking down the sheet before the gybe.

 

[Foolish Muse]

There are videos of Figero racers doing this on youtube.

I wasn't aware of these videos until just now. Here is a great one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3j5ec7PP87s

As I mentioned above, for short term situations it's not even necessary to move the pole. You can see how, with the tweakers down, he controls the spinnaker. It is much more stable in higher winds. You'll find that in 20 knots of wind the spinnaker is rock solid with the pole on the leeward side.

Where I sail there is an island that we gybe around. But the water is very rough just past the island because of strong currents and my autopilot can't handle such rough water. So I gybe the main, but don't move the pole until several minutes later when I'm past the rough waters.

 

[Channel Sailor]

Very interesting video. Thank you all. Difficult to see if the old guy end of the pole was first released or at the mast end first. I think I need to move my tweaker turning blocks forward a little because at the moment they are positioned for use a Guy turning blocks. I notice in the video the pole end was quite high as well. I would need to lengthen my downhaul line to allow the pole to get that high. I am wondering if the pole end is high it results in the pressure on the pole end is much reduced. If single handed I'll try the "main first" technique.

Georgio- Do you use Sheet, Guys, and Tweakers on the sheets as well.

 

[Georgio]

Georgio- Do you use Sheet, Guys, and Tweakers on the sheets as well.

Yes, it does result in more string but allows a greater degree of control in my experience. The boat has a masthead spinnaker so can be a handful.

The use of tweakers is dependant a little on wind strength, I pull the, down more in stronger breeze. Not allowed to use tweakers at all when racing in class (not allowed in co32 class rules). But when I race solo it's almost always under irc so no issues.

 

[Neil_Y]

A light wind gybe with full crew on a Humphreys 22, kite first it all starts at 25.00mins and lasts 18 seconds, then the float drop at just after 28.00mins.
The only time we had a camera running and it all went to plan.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t34-iR4O7sc

 

[Channel Sailor]

Using above advise thank you, I was once again today single handing with spinnaker. Not very slick yet even after a few occasions of trying this on my own. I have been using sheets and tweakers on turning blocks at widest point of yacht, wind f2/3. Fractional rig. 30ft yacht.

Spinnaker launched as per Foolish Muse advise from the rail near cockpit, which I have done a few times now so getting better at it. But in the light air the spinnaker seems to be a bit sticky going up as the does not easily get away from the mainsail and cross trees.

Spinnaker doused through the slot between the boom and mainsail foot which for me works a treat, except when I am standing on a halyard or sheet! It also means the sheet and guy/tweakers have to be untied and unthreaded from the slot before anything much else can be done with the mainsail trim.

Not yet investigated how to douse the spinnaker from a beam reach, but will need to soon because boat seems to be quite fast in light air so a beam reach is a common course.

Gybing is however not so pretty. Discovered a few times now that I cannot release the pole end from the guy (tweaked down Sheet) because it does not drop out due to maybe tension somewhere. I have to take the mast end off first, and yes there is some pressure on it and I have to phaff about reaching out to pull the guy out. But i am wondering if I am doing something wrong with the pole uphaul and downhaul which causes this problem.

Please I have a few more questions:

during this solo “Main First” Gybe what should be done with the pole uphaul and downhaul?

During the gybe process should the pole be lowered or raised on the mast track (sheets and tweakers only, single handed).

Should the tweaker turning blocks be a little nearer the bow rather than at the widest point of the beam?

What is the best way to attach the tweakers to the 12mm sheets? The somewhat heavy blocks I used today in light air were on the sheet side rattling about and banging on the deck/rail. I have before just used bowlines which although not free running at least they do not rattle on the deck. Or are these low friction expensive rings any good?


I am still wondering whether to use sheets and guys instead of sheets and tweakers.

 

[Honeymonster]

I can vouch for the Foolish Muse main first solo gybe method. This is exactly how I do my solo gybes on my Sun Fast 3200. You can pretty much gybe at will in most conditions and you can sail indefinitely with the pole "on the wrong side" and choose your moment for going forward to gybe the pole (I disconnect mast first, then old guy, then connect new guy, then re-attach to mast). Before the gybe I pull the traveller all the way to windward, then after the gybe it is in the right place with reduced chance of causing the boat to luff up. Also, I release a few feet of pole downhaul before going forward to gybe the pole. I use singe sheets on tweakers, even in windy conditions (less bits of string to worry about back in the cockpit). Problems getting the pole off the mast, or pushing it out on the new gybe, is usually because the pole was not squared back enough before the gybe, the sheet was not let forward enough towards the forestay, or you forgot the let enough downhaul (or uphaul) off before going forward.

 

[wotayottie]

Channel Sailor, if you are singlehanded then I strongly suggest that you learn the "main first gybing method." It was first described to me by one of the Figaro sailors and I describe it in some detail in my singlehanded tips book. It is the only way that I gybe singlehanded now.

The method is to sail deep and pull the pole back 2/3. Then ease the sheet until the spinnaker clew is about 3 feet from the forestay. Then pull the guy and sheet tweaker lines down, at least to the lifelines or even tighter in high winds. Then steer the boat through the gybe and swing the mainsail over and sail deep in the new direction. At this point you can continue to sail indefinitely with only the tweaker lines controlling the new guy. The pole remains on the old guy/new sheet. I call this "gybing without the pole". I now do this every time I go sailing. In fact I did it last night in a race. It is very handy when short term gybes (to get around a race mark, a buoy or an island, or in a race when you want to move to starboard versus another racer) are necessary. When I've passed the obstacle, I just swing back to the other direction again without ever having moved the pole. Finally, if you want to stay on the new gybe for a longer period, then go to the bow and gybe the pole as others have described above. The tweaker lines on the new guy will keep it within handy reach when you release the old guy from the pole. Here is a diagram I used in my book:
View attachment 64217
And here is a photo of the spinnaker after having gybed without the pole. With a little practice you'll be able to get it to fly in any wind conditions, up as high as about 100 degrees apparent. It works best when the wind is above 15 knots.
View attachment 64218
Have fun.

why would that be easier than swapping the pole whilst sailing dead downwind and after jibing the main? Or is it not so much a case of easier as of getting on the new course quicker?

 

[tsekul]

The main problem with spinnakers for us is how to deal with re hoisting the head sail at the mark after you have gybed mid run .
We end up moving the head sail across by hand untieing one sheet passing over everything and reattaching. I can’t figure out how to gybe and sort all the sheets and the pole at the same time (end to end gybe). I don’t seem to have enough hands.

 

[anoccasionalyachtsman]

The main problem with spinnakers for us is how to deal with re hoisting the head sail at the mark after you have gybed mid run .
We end up moving the head sail across by hand untieing one sheet passing over everything and reattaching. I can’t figure out how to gybe and sort all the sheets and the pole at the same time (end to end gybe). I don’t seem to have enough hands.

Try a snapshackle on the pole downhaul, then the jib can go across under the pole.

 

[tsekul]

Thanks I take a look
T

 

[anoccasionalyachtsman]

Thanks I take a look
T

I wasn't very clear. I'm assuming that your pole downhaul runs through a block on the foredeck, and so my suggestion is that because the jib ends up on the wrong side of it you either disconnect the downhaul from the pole and push the jib & sheets across, or that the block is snapshackled to the deck ring and so is removable to allow the same.