Bowlines

[chart5011]

I have always tied my bowlines with the tail on the inside of the loop as most people seem to do. However I recently sailed with an East Coast sailor who ties his with the tail on the outside. He says this is usual on the East Coast particularly amongst bargemen, the theory being it is quicker to tie in a heavy warp. Having experimented, his reasoning seems logical (without diagrams this is hard to explain).
I am not aware of any reason (strength etc) why it should not be tied this why.
Any thoughts?

 

[johnalison]

I believe the alternative is usual in the Netherlands and they have equal strength. Largely a matter of taste.

 

[Boomshanka]

On my dayskipper practical, I was told that the tail on the outside indicates a certain hidden message in a marina... umh... something to do with which team you bat for I couldn't possibly confirm either way.

 

[prv]

I was taught to tie it inside in Cubs, but with no special significance. In Cadets (we were affiliated with the Royal Engineers so did various ropey, rafty, lash-it-all-together things) we were taught that with the end outside was Wrong, and Not A Bowline (I guess the Army likes to be definite about things). I've since heard that the Dutch Navy ties it outside and considers this to be better (probably more for reasons of tradition than based on rigorous trials).

I still tie it inside, much like I still coil warps in the Royal Engineers way even though noone else in the boaty world seems to have come across it.

Pete

 

[binch]

It does not matter from the point of view of strength whether you make (please not tie) a Dutch/East Coast bowline or a Channel bowline. We have tested both to destruction and both are good and both break or unfasten equally well.
Now, which is the most reliable and convenient way of joining two substantial ropes together? Often given in yachting circles as two interlooped bowlines. Noy good as the bowlines weaken the overall strength too much
Best use a carrick bend.
Following the East Coast -- Channel difference theme, many nautical words differ. The south coast interacted with the French and picked up their latinate habits. On the east we were more in touch with the Germanic sailors from the Netherlands.

 

[Pye_End]

Inside.

The only time I have ever had my genoa sheets undo was when crew tied bowlines with tail on the outside.

 

[flipper]

much like I still coil warps in the Royal Engineers way even though noone else in the boaty world seems to have come across it.

Pete

So how's that then?

Patrick

 

[Lady Campanula]

There's the old seadog saying "Different ships, different bowlines" ( or 'longsplices' ), acknowledging there are differing ways, differing preferences, to achieve an objective.

 

[Phoenix of Hamble]

By getting a more junior rank to do it for you.....

 

[jwilson]

I have always tied my bowlines with the tail on the inside of the loop as most people seem to do. However I recently sailed with an East Coast sailor who ties his with the tail on the outside. He says this is usual on the East Coast particularly amongst bargemen, the theory being it is quicker to tie in a heavy warp. Having experimented, his reasoning seems logical (without diagrams this is hard to explain).
I am not aware of any reason (strength etc) why it should not be tied this why.
Any thoughts?

The Dutch or loop-outside bowline is supposedly better for a loop round a fat post as if repeatedly loosened and tugged the post can't bump the end and push it loose. As I don't often (ever?) use a bowline for that I tie it the English way.

Both are bowlines. More important is how you tie it. If you are still rabbit-and-treeing you need to learn to tie it with the wrist-twist, which is so much faster, and can even be done one-handed if need be.

 

[peterb]

If you are still rabbit-and-treeing you need to learn to tie it with the wrist-twist, which is so much faster, and can even be done one-handed if need be.

Be careful of the wrist-twist method. Works beautifully when tying the bowline round yourself, or anything else with the standing part leading away from you, but it's not so good when you are tying it round anything (like a bollard or a genoa clew cringle) with the standing part leading towards you. Learn the half-reef-knot method as well.

 

[Ubergeekian]

It does not matter from the point of view of strength whether you make (please not tie)...

Why not? Will something nasty happen to me?

 

[emsworthy]

I've always known of the "outside" bitter end bowline as a "Dutch Navy" bowline.

I did my Dazed Kipper with a chap from the Netherlands and each of us that wasn't either engaged in helming or navigating took up the challenge of teaching a rather green comp crew how to tie a bowline. 4 days in and she still hadn't got it... then we realised one of us was teaching her somefink a bit different to the rest!!

Got there in the end though.

 

[snooks]

Now, which is the most reliable and convenient way of joining two substantial ropes together? Often given in yachting circles as two interlooped bowlines. Noy good as the bowlines weaken the overall strength too much
Best use a carrick bend.
.

I'll keep using a Double Fisherman knot which proved the strongest way YM tested to join two ropes together when we tested knots to destruction at Marlow Ropes. We didn't test a Carrick Bend though. A RTATHH just pulled through, and the bowline snapped where the rope doubles back on its self, the loop you break to release the bowline.

It's also a good knot to use instead of a splice (and cheaper!) and the preferred way of attaching a dyneema halyard to a shackle/clip, as dyneema is difficult to eye splce

 

[Richard10002]

I've been tying bowlines for well over 30 years, and dont know what you're all talking about

Boy Scouts, Yachts, Merchant Navy, Mobos, Narrow Boats, Yachts again..... I tie them in a variety of ways, depending on the circumstances, and have never had one come lose, or break, so havent been aware of a difference.

Next time I get a piece of rope in my hands, I'll see how they look.

 

[AndrewF]

t

Had to find a piece of line to see where the tail ended up, when I tied a bowline. Could a dutch navy bowling be posh name for a fireman's dohbi hitch.

 

[SimbaDog]

I've been tying bowlines for well over 30 years, and dont know what you're all talking about

Boy Scouts, Yachts, Merchant Navy, Mobos, Narrow Boats, Yachts again..... I tie them in a variety of ways, depending on the circumstances, and have never had one come lose, or break, so havent been aware of a difference.

Next time I get a piece of rope in my hands, I'll see how they look.

Oh good, that's exactly what I was thinking

 

[nonitoo]

Now, which is the most reliable and convenient way of joining two substantial ropes together? Often given in yachting circles as two interlooped bowlines. Noy good as the bowlines weaken the overall strength too much
Best use a carrick bend.

I prefer a sheet bend (either single or, preferrably, double) - joins any sizes of rope.

Tom

 

[bbg]

The French also seem to use the "tail on the outside" method, which confirms what I've always suspected about the French.

 

[snowleopard]

I've been tying bowlines for well over 30 years, and dont know what you're all talking about

Boy Scouts, Yachts, Merchant Navy, Mobos, Narrow Boats, Yachts again..... I tie them in a variety of ways, depending on the circumstances, and have never had one come lose, or break, so havent been aware of a difference.

Aha! a victory for common sense over pedantry. I tie mine using the wrist twist, capsized half hitch or occasionally slipknot method and apart from checking the result looks like a bowline don't care which side the tail is.

I have also tested bowlines to destruction (trying to tow a truck up a hill). When a bowline tied in braided rope fails it is a result of the cover breaking and sliding off the core.

For joining ropes a double sheet bend is the most straightforward, the double fisherman's knot the strongest.

I find the carrick bend has a tendency to capsize so avoid using it. It's recommended for large hawsers that have to pass over windlasses. I'm sailing with professionals next week so I'll try to remember to ask what they do.