Bow thruster ( sorry)

[pcatterall]

At least one member of our group of 6 is keen on getting a bow thruster fitted.

This is for our heavy 10 m long keel cruiser. yes only 10m I know!, We have to moor stern to and I have to admit it is difficult even in calm conditions.
The stern will go in whatever direction it wants, there is no prop walk. We have done extensive trials and there are no tricks. ( please accept this!!)
The helm invariably has no experienced crew so tricks with sweeps etc are not viable.
My own semi solution involves trying to line up and then going astern, if ( when actually) the stern starts to drift out I nudge ahead and get her straight again then reverse.
This is the best I can do!

I am concerned that fitting a conventional bow thruster may be difficult as the Neptunian has a fitted 100 gallon tank extending right into the bow area.
Would a stern thruster work ( there seems some logic as our usual problem is just 'nudging' the stern over a tad!)
I will welcome any suggestions ( preferably not practice make perfect!)

 

[AntarcticPilot]

Would this be a good application for an Azimuth Thruster?

 

[Neeves]

No reason that I can think of to apologise.


Why do you need to go into the pen stern first?

You do not mention how many crew would normally be available.

If you went in bow first you could control the orientation when you arrive and leave using a long spring round the outermost horn cleat, which on arrival would be deployed from the bow. You would need to be careful not to drop the spring on departure but some skill with a boat hook should enable the spring to be retrieved with out it touching the water (much). But.... you would need at least 2 people (helm and deck hand). You can also try the same when you arrive stern first - spring attached at transom then round outer cleat.

The other option is drop a member of crew off, anywhere convenient for the manourverability of the yacht, but within walking distance of your pen - they then can take the lines before you actually enter the pen. With only 2 people you need to set up the lines first and easily available to the helm and the helm needs to have the nouse to be able to throw the lines, one at a time to the deck hand, now on shore.

I have a similar problem (cat) in a cross wind and tide/current and single handed I bring the lines to the transom, one line attached to an amid ship cleat in the middle of the line. I simply step off with both lines which gives me control of both bow and stern. We have one line made up specially with a loop in the middle which goes on the amidships cleat and the lines are long enough. As long as the cat is kept near the pontoon or wharf it cannot swing out.

A bow or stern thruster does seem a major challenge in itself, ignoring the fact it might be actually difficult to fit and not cheap.

Jonathan

 

[lustyd]

I can highly recommend replacing your keel and rudder with fin keel and a nice modern balanced rudder. My AWB reverses like a boss ?

never apologise for wanting a bow or stern thruster, boating should be fun. You’re also allowed dry bilges and good lighting.

 

[Stemar]

It goes without saying that no real seaman would dream of using a bowthruster - it's clear proof of incompetence.

Which hasn't stopped me wanting one on my little Snapdragon on occasions. On Jazzcat, twin engines do much the same, but I'm still half wishing I had one for this afternoon when I have to come alongside solo, with wind (F6-7) and tide pushing me off.

I'm with Lustyd.

 

[oldgit]

On the Thames both bow and stern thrusters are not unknown and if it allows you to actually enjoy any trip without the constant concern of getting back on your berth without drama , whats the problem.
Me........ am just simply too mean to install one.
Chum of mine has a boat with a pair of IPS and moors in a congested marina. Doubt the boat would move if it had shafts, IPS allows him to use his boat with confidence.
Me. .....might have a set of the Devils Mangles if the seller knocks £25K off the asking price for IPS repairs and servicing and mebbe a little extra for flights to somewhere warm, while the boat is ashore being fixed .

 

[Neeves]

Bow thrusters are so 20th Century and are only the ambition of the parsimonious.

Real owners go for true support and uninterrupted pleasure with something like this:

Yacht Controller srl - Yachting Innovations (Official Manufacturer)

Once you have overcome the bravery of mentioning bow thrusters (and testing your confidence to mention auto control) try an anchor thread

Jonathan

 

[Tranona]

No reason that I can think of to apologise.

Why do you need to go into the pen stern first?

Jonathan

Because that is the (almost) universal way of mooring - stern to a quay or pontoon walkway in the non tidal waters of the Med where the OP is based. Access ashore is via a plank from the stern. It is possible to go bow to but much more difficult to get ashore. Look at any photo of Med harbours and marinas and you will see what I mean. Invariably you have to reverse between 2 other boats with minimal clearance either side so being able to reverse in an accurate straight line is key to angst free berthing.

A bow thruster allow you to effectively steer the bow as you reverse to counter the almost inevitable crosswind and in the OPs case with a heavy long keel boat the almost complete lack of steering control in reverse at low speeds. A stern thruster will be largely ineffective in this sort of situation as it is the bow that needs controlling. A stern thruster is a good complement to a bow thruster particularly on a large flat bottomed MOBO when coming alongside as both ends get blown around. The Fairline Corniche next to me in the yard is currently having both fitted for exactly this reason - the wind in his berth is almost always blowing him off.

 

[pcatterall]

Because that is the (almost) universal way of mooring - stern to a quay or pontoon walkway in the non tidal waters of the Med where the OP is based. Access ashore is via a plank from the stern. It is possible to go bow to but much more difficult to get ashore. Look at any photo of Med harbours and marinas and you will see what I mean. Invariably you have to reverse between 2 other boats with minimal clearance either side so being able to reverse in an accurate straight line is key to angst free berthing.

A bow thruster allow you to effectively steer the bow as you reverse to counter the almost inevitable crosswind and in the OPs case with a heavy long keel boat the almost complete lack of steering control in reverse at low speeds. A stern thruster will be largely ineffective in this sort of situation as it is the bow that needs controlling. A stern thruster is a good complement to a bow thruster particularly on a large flat bottomed MOBO when coming alongside as both ends get blown around. The Fairline Corniche next to me in the yard is currently having both fitted for exactly this reason - the wind in his berth is almost always blowing him off.

Yes, I should have mentioned the med mooring issues. We will come in bow first if there are cross wind issues but boarding is , as you say then difficult.
I did say that the 'driver' is usually without skilled help so he has to get it right.
I also wonder what power of thruster we would need? most of the time we are not trying to overcome sneaky winds but just nudge the reluctant stern over.

 

[AntarcticPilot]

How about a small outboard on a bracket at the stern? That shoudl swivel enough to allow sideways thrust as required, but of course, you'd need some sort of remote throttle and sterring arrangement.

 

[Neeves]

Because that is the (almost) universal way of mooring - stern to a quay or pontoon walkway in the non tidal waters of the Med where the OP is based. Access ashore is via a plank from the stern. It is possible to go bow to but much more difficult to get ashore. Look at any photo of Med harbours and marinas and you will see what I mean. Invariably you have to reverse between 2 other boats with minimal clearance either side so being able to reverse in an accurate straight line is key to angst free berthing.

A bow thruster allow you to effectively steer the bow as you reverse to counter the almost inevitable crosswind and in the OPs case with a heavy long keel boat the almost complete lack of steering control in reverse at low speeds. A stern thruster will be largely ineffective in this sort of situation as it is the bow that needs controlling. A stern thruster is a good complement to a bow thruster particularly on a large flat bottomed MOBO when coming alongside as both ends get blown around. The Fairline Corniche next to me in the yard is currently having both fitted for exactly this reason - the wind in his berth is almost always blowing him off.

No mention of other yachts - I'd imagined that with such an overweight wallet to consider a bow thruster then pcatterall (Pete?) would not want to be cheek by jowl with the riff riff and would be mooring in a pen with at least one pontoon on one side.

Oddly - the Balts moor in an almost identical way - but bow in (so that their rudders do not suffer damage) - and they seem to manage quite well with passerelles, or a plank - off the bow.

If I'd noticed where the boat was resident I might have twigged (but I can be very slow) - I might suggest all these problems would melt away if he started a new thread on the alternative to the Med Moor - anchors and anchoring then dinghy to the taverna - so much more relaxing.

For those of us in The Colonies - Med Mooring is pretty alien and not something that we think about, unless on this forum.



Take care, stay safe

Jonathan

 

[dunedin]

Because that is the (almost) universal way of mooring - stern to a quay or pontoon walkway in the non tidal waters of the Med where the OP is based. Access ashore is via a plank from the stern. It is possible to go bow to but much more difficult to get ashore. Look at any photo of Med harbours and marinas and you will see what I mean.

So when precisely did this change?
I was recently reading a not hugely old (1990’s) copy of Yachting Monthly and the editor referred to “Mediterranean style mooring” - and it only became clear later that he was referring to bows to, but that was so obvious he hadn’t thought to specify this as bows to was clearly then the “(almost) universal way of mooring” in the Med.
I remember a charter in Greece mid 1990s and our flotilla all moored bows to - quite a challenge getting 3 small kids ashore when third boat back, bows to stern, in Hydra (as end boat we soon realised using the tender to the other side of the harbour was the answer).

And in the non-tidal waters of the Baltic of course bows to remains the norm - indeed many boats don’t even have an anchor roller on the bows. There they have adapted the boats to make going ashore over the bows easier. And of course much more privacy in the cockpit and cabin, as well as less risk of rudder damage.

Adapting the pulpit and fitting a bow ladder, like a Halberg Rassy, may be much cheaper than fitting a bow thruster

 

[Tranona]

No mention of other yachts - I'd imagined that with such an overweight wallet to consider a bow thruster then pcatterall (Pete?) would not want to be cheek by jowl with the riff riff and would be mooring in a pen with at least one pontoon on one side.

For those of us in The Colonies - Med Mooring is pretty alien and not something that we think about, unless on this forum.



Take care, stay safe

Jonathan

Guess he did not mention it because it is a given. The Med is rammed full of boats and the only way to fit them all in is stern to side by side. Permanent moorings do tend to have a bit of space, but the bow lines that go to a sinker or chain on the sea bed are placed according to the sort of beam and length the berths are expected to take. Some quays, particularly in the east are free form where you lie to anchor and stern to and these are fun in the afternoon when everybody wants a space and when the crosswinds are often at their worst. A little 10m boat like the OP has is a minnow fighting for space with the monster sharks in many places so being able to control the boat and so avoid dinging some multi million £ MOBO is highly desirable.

His problem will be taking the tank out to fit the tube and motor than making a new tank to fit the space left rather than the cost (about £4-5k).

 

[Norman_E]

Where I sailed, stern to mooring was universal. There is no shame in having a bow thruster, though experience taught me that a fin keeled boat really did not need it except for odd occasions. For a long keeler you have three choices, go in bows first, anchor off or get a thruster.

As for mooring bows to, there was one place I visited where there was just a beach with a restaurant. Lazy lines were provided and you moored bows to and stepped off onto the beach or onto a low step. I liked the place so much that I made a bow hung ladder that I could hang in place. For the OP, making up a fitting at the bow to hold a boarding plank or steps might be the best and most economic solution.

 

[Tranona]

So when precisely did this change?
I was recently reading a not hugely old (1990’s) copy of Yachting Monthly and the editor referred to “Mediterranean style mooring” - and it only became clear later that he was referring to bows to, but that was so obvious he hadn’t thought to specify this as bows to was clearly then the “(almost) universal way of mooring” in the Med.
I remember a charter in Greece mid 1990s and our flotilla all moored bows to - quite a challenge getting 3 small kids ashore when third boat back, bows to stern, in Hydra (as end boat we soon realised using the tender to the other side of the harbour was the answer).

And in the non-tidal waters of the Baltic of course bows to remains the norm - indeed many boats don’t even have an anchor roller on the bows. There they have adapted the boats to make going ashore over the bows easier. And of course much more privacy in the cockpit and cabin, as well as less risk of rudder damage.

Adapting the pulpit and fitting a bow ladder, like a Halberg Rassy, may be much cheaper than fitting a bow thruster

It changed (late 90's) when just about any boat destined for the Med sprouted a sugar scoop stern - much more suitable for the environment. Boarding bow to with a ladder is fun for the odd occasion but not for regular use. The world has changed since the ideal charter boat was a Cobra 850. Imagine a charter party of 10 trying to use a ladder from the high bows of their Bavaria 45 - particularly returning from a good night out in the taverna!

When I first started chartering in the late 90s you saw the odd N European boat and old charter boats going bow to, but even then the majority were stern to. Form follows function - so if you want to make best use of the mooring facilities in the Med a stern platform of some sort is essential and bow thruster desirable. Even HR have this on their latest designs because they seriously limit their market if they don't.

 

[Neeves]

Guess he did not mention it because it is a given.

Only in the Med

His problem will be taking the tank out to fit the tube and motor than making a new tank to fit the space left rather than the cost (about £4-5k).

I would have had no idea

Anchors are expensive but considerably cheaper than A$10k - and I bet most yachts in the Med are equiped with a windlass, chain, dinghy and outboard seems a shame not to use them. and save A$10k

I do appreciate that you need deploy the anchor - anyway - for the Med moor.

But pander to my ignorance

Deploy anchor opposite chosen space, power set anchor - before getting too close to space (modern anchors will set and hold at 3:1). You know exactly how much rode to deploy - simple calculation from depth. Reverse toward space, carefully deploying more rode but only so much as to allow the rode to remain taut - so speed of reverse is dictated by the deployment of more rode.
- is it not possible to reverese in a straight line?

Totally different yacht (catamaran) - but when we power set our cat stays in the same place, if we deploy more chain, keeping chain taut(fish) we reverse in a straight line. If I get my rudders set correctly I can reverse in a straight(ish) line on one engine.

Jonathan.

 

[Tranona]

Only in the Med




I would have had no idea

Anchors are expensive but considerably cheaper than A$10k - and I bet most yachts in the Med are equiped with a windlass, chain, dinghy and outboard seems a shame not to use them. and save A$10k

I do appreciate that you need deploy the anchor - anyway - for the Med moor.

But pander to my ignorance

Deploy anchor opposite chosen space, power set anchor - before getting too close to space (modern anchors will set and hold at 3:1). You know exactly how much rode to deploy - simple calculation from depth. Reverse toward space, carefully deploying more rode but only so much as to allow the rode to remain taut - so speed of reverse is dictated by the deployment of more rode.
- is it not possible to reverese in a straight line?

Totally different yacht (catamaran) - but when we power set our cat stays in the same place, if we deploy more chain, keeping chain taut(fish) we reverse in a straight line. If I get my rudders set correctly I can reverse in a straight(ish) line on one engine.

Jonathan.

Yes, Med boaters do usually have good anchors, particularly in the east where anchoring in deserted bays is common. However not so common in the west and certainly not common to use anchors in harbours or marinas where mooring buoys are provided for the bow and then 2 lines from the stern to ashore. There is simply not room to to drop an anchor, nor is it allowed. Yes the method you described is commonly used to moor stern to on town quays, but again space is often limited and the anchor area already full of anchors from other boats - often not in a straight line from where they are moored. Add the crosswind and the fun starts!. As to anchoring and using a dinghy, not always possible as the harbours are on the shallow edge of the coastline, but just outside it can often drop away to 100m or more. Remember the islands are the tips of volcanic stacks. Suggest you have a look at Rod Heikell's pilot books to get an idea about the sort of anchoring and mooring facilities you might encounter. First time I went was an eye opener, but you soon get the hang of it and equip your boat accordingly.

 

[Neeves]

Thanks Tranona,

My envy of those sailing in the med is rapidly reducing - I thought it was such a relaxed way of life.

No wonder its called 'The Lucky Country' - so many reasons and the reasons keep increasing

Take care, stay safe

Jonathan

 

[Porthandbuoy]

His problem will be taking the tank out to fit the tube and motor than making a new tank to fit the space left rather than the cost (about £4-5k).

The water tank is an integral part of the Neptunian's hull. The only way to install a bow thruster would be to chop the tank short at the bow and glass in a new tank front at the same time as the bow thruster. This will be my first season with my Neptunian. Surely she can't be any more difficult to steer in astern than my previous boat, a Nic 26? Dare say I'll find out.

 

[LONG_KEELER]

When I had long keeled boats I always carried a longish oar that I used on a strop to the backstay. It's very easy to row the stern from side to side whilst under power and you can mostly steer at the same time.