davidej
Well-Known Member
No of course it is not unreasonable but does not exist at present.
My only advice is to stand for parliament
My only advice is to stand for parliament
Bought boat with a mortgage on it ( Hypothetical)
- Thread starter Thepipdoc
- Start date
gjgm
Well-Known Member
Many people obviously do feel there is a robust system, as many people buy boats.
I'm guessing 3-5000 boats a year are sold. How many cases can you cite of mortgage fraud? The case mentioed was 10+ years ago- so thats 30-50k boat sales. Come on, if there is a problem it shouldnt be hard to find?
Even if it happens 1/25000 boat sales, I would still like to know the outcome of that .
Ok, you might say that is still a risk too far, and I say no it isnt.
ari
Well-Known Member
I suspect that the majority of people probably buy through a dealer or broker and assume "that sort of thing is taken care of", just like buying a car from a main dealer.
As to how many cases of mortgage fraud I can cite? None. How many cases of stolen cars being sold can I cite? None. How many credit card frauds can I cite? None. What does that prove?
Simply. If I'm parting with £500,000 for a boat (I wish), I'd quite like to know that there is a reasonable method in place for ensuring it is free from someone else's mortgage that might see me liable for hundreds of thousands of pounds. Again, I'm not sure how anyone can see that as an unreasonable request.
And as it stands, it appears that there isn't.
gjgm
Well-Known Member
But I am sure Mastercard and Visa can tell you, and so can someone on car fraud..why .. because it happens.
Whether it is reasonable or not to expect someone else to protect your butt on a mortgaged boat, I am not sure. Due diligence et al, and make you own mind up.
If you cant, then of course you accept you cant buy a baot. That is your assessment, and that is absolutely fine. Get the risk into proportion is all I am saying.
1/25000 chance on £500k... not alot of risk. Ok on one side that assumes 1/25000 is meaningful, and we dont know. And on the other 1/25000 assumes to some extent that perhaps you go in with two blindfolds on and your fingers in your ears..
ari
Well-Known Member
Because it happens and also because someone is counting. These are properly regulated large industries with many more transactions.
As to the reasonableness of expecting someone else to "protect my butt", presumably you expect someone to protect yours when you buy a car (HPI), is that unreasonable? What's the difference?
We're back to familiar territory now and it's all been said before so I'll back out of this one.
But it does stagger me that people are quite happy that there's no reasonable way of confirming the absence of someone else's finance on a boat purchase.
Maybe I'm just not rich enough.
jfm
Well-Known Member
Lots of points up in the air here. Just to throw in some $0.02 replies
1. Henry if the boat HPI is that cheap I'll support it too. People need to be warned though that a boat's identity can be changed/cloned. Maybe more easily than a car, and anyway there will always be more £££ at stake with a boat thus encouraging marginal fraudsters who wouldn't bother doing a fraud with their HP car
2. My HIN is on my part certif too. It wont be for many boats though, if you go back to years when there were no HINs or the HIN system was newish. BUT, i dont know if you can search the register by HIN, ie apply for a transcript of the register for a boat when the only info you give to Cardiff is the HIN. Anyone know for sure?
3. Brian I strongly disagree that it is hard to change a HIN. There is a transom HIN and a hidden HIN, but the hidden one is often not seen even by surveyors. They can both be changed easily. I had a new HIN moulded into the hull of my last boat, a 2009 Sq58, and you couldn't tell. I have since sold that boat and obviously the buyer's survey did not pick up that the HIN was retro-moulded into the hull. GRP/gelcoat fixer guys are way more skilled than you might think! (I did have a perfectly good reason/justification, btw!)
4. People need to remenber this is not just an issue for used boats. Most dealer stock boats are financed and some are pledged to a bank, and very often there isn't time/willingness to part 1 register so the bank just keeps the Builder's certif. you have to have your wits about you if you want to avoid paying the dealer and relying on them to discharge their bank loan and clear the mortgage. When i bought my current boat it was pledged to a bank because the dealer had decided to pay for it a month previously to get an ad hoc discount from the builder and improve his margin. Now they were fully open with me so my money went straight to the bank and they are totally honest dealers, but in other cases you could have misbehaving dealers (Peters) so please dont assume you dont need to keep your wits about you when buying a new boat
1. Henry if the boat HPI is that cheap I'll support it too. People need to be warned though that a boat's identity can be changed/cloned. Maybe more easily than a car, and anyway there will always be more £££ at stake with a boat thus encouraging marginal fraudsters who wouldn't bother doing a fraud with their HP car
2. My HIN is on my part certif too. It wont be for many boats though, if you go back to years when there were no HINs or the HIN system was newish. BUT, i dont know if you can search the register by HIN, ie apply for a transcript of the register for a boat when the only info you give to Cardiff is the HIN. Anyone know for sure?
3. Brian I strongly disagree that it is hard to change a HIN. There is a transom HIN and a hidden HIN, but the hidden one is often not seen even by surveyors. They can both be changed easily. I had a new HIN moulded into the hull of my last boat, a 2009 Sq58, and you couldn't tell. I have since sold that boat and obviously the buyer's survey did not pick up that the HIN was retro-moulded into the hull. GRP/gelcoat fixer guys are way more skilled than you might think! (I did have a perfectly good reason/justification, btw!)
4. People need to remenber this is not just an issue for used boats. Most dealer stock boats are financed and some are pledged to a bank, and very often there isn't time/willingness to part 1 register so the bank just keeps the Builder's certif. you have to have your wits about you if you want to avoid paying the dealer and relying on them to discharge their bank loan and clear the mortgage. When i bought my current boat it was pledged to a bank because the dealer had decided to pay for it a month previously to get an ad hoc discount from the builder and improve his margin. Now they were fully open with me so my money went straight to the bank and they are totally honest dealers, but in other cases you could have misbehaving dealers (Peters) so please dont assume you dont need to keep your wits about you when buying a new boat
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gravygraham
Well-Known Member
How about this for a HIN no! A eight year old in their DT class could knock these up with their eyes closed. It's glued on the bulkhead in the engine bay. Very secure and tamper proof, not.
jfm
Well-Known Member
Blimey Graham!
IRI denotes Jeanneau and I would expect them to get it right. Are you sure that isn't the supplementary HIN plate? Surely there is a HIN moulded into the starboard transom area as well?
Not that a transom HIN moulded in the gelcoat is difficult to change, as I've said above
IRI denotes Jeanneau and I would expect them to get it right. Are you sure that isn't the supplementary HIN plate? Surely there is a HIN moulded into the starboard transom area as well?
Not that a transom HIN moulded in the gelcoat is difficult to change, as I've said above
gravygraham
Well-Known Member
Nope. Well I couldn't find one, I did have a good scout round as our old boat had what I thought was a sensibly marked HIN on the transom.
PaulGooch
Well-Known Member
I dont see where you're going here Ari. The HIN being missing from the doc doesn't affect your search. You'd get the HIN from the boat, nowhere else, and search from there. If the seller was hiding the mortgage and part 1 reg, he isn't going to show you the part 1 reg docs.
PaulGooch
Well-Known Member
There you go Henry, told you so lol
PaulGooch
Well-Known Member
You lied, you said if i didn't reply, you'd be happy to stay out of this lol
PaulGooch
Well-Known Member
If we were dealing with dedicated fraudsters they'd overcome the HIN etc whatever. Same as they do with cars.
I thought we were mainly/only dealing with registered marine mortgages. Someone in a bit of financial bother might fail to mention his mortgage to try and keep his head above water. But would he change HIN numbers and be guilty of fraud ?
As said, nothing is 100% safe, what in life is. A relatively simple and inexpensive HPI system would make things much simpler and safer than they are at present, IMO. Once running, Henry's figures are (IMO) correct. Lenders will pass the HPI registration fee on the the borrower, no big deal there. Anyone buying a boat does the HPI check at the final stages, adding £15 to the cost of his boat, cheap peace of mind methinks.
gjgm
Well-Known Member
HPI is one company, but let's use the term generally. Given it costs £15 a pop and they probably have 100,000 a year, I imagine it isnt that simple after all. They check various databases, some of which is publicly available anyway. They check KNOWN loan record databases. Bit like checking Part 1, you might think.
And if it isnt on there...?
Some offer some limited additional cover IF you meet all their t+c. Let us recall they have enough business to do this at a reasonable charge, and so cover any negligence claims, I guess.
I am rather with JFM here.. it wont be cheap to set up, would only register boat mortgages from now on (so losing that sly crook) and I am not sure who is going to take on that operational risk for a miserly £15, when there is no legal requirement to lodge any record anyway.
Which maybe why no one wants to do it (from the "HPI" end)
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henryf
Well-Known Member
All the arguments you are using re: ringers (number change) boats are exactly the same for our industry. I've been offered plenty of ringers in my time but I have an advantage. I sell Porsches and I've been selling Porsches for, well longer than a fortnight
I know every inch of the cars, I know where all the numbers should be, I know what they look like, what the paint finishes should be in various areas of the car to the point where I can spot when something's wrong. Some of the ringers that have been brought round have been fantastic. There's an Italian 993 that I've been offered 3 times now over the years and the bits are in the right places but there are a couple of tiny bits wrong.
So ultimately to simply run an HPI check isn't necessarily proof that all is well. I would argue that a boat is actually a little easier in that the engine numbers will be pretty easy to spot a tamper on due to the fact it will be stamped on the block and done with a machine which will be hard to replicate in the field. The supporting paperwork such as original bill of sale will also provided additional assurance that you've got the right boat.
All you're looking for is a simple database onto which you can hang invisible details such as finance. By keeping the costs low checking won't be seen as a financially arduous task and so done freely. It relies on finance companies to provide the right information but ultimately their customer will pay. A extra twenty quid isn't going to make any difference to the finance deal.
A good dealer or broker (oh god here we go again - if such a thing exists) will have the specialist knowledge required to know where the numbers are and what everything should look like. The database is merely a resource to be used in the same way as a hull moisture meter, a torch or a volt meter. The problem with things like finance is they are totally invisible, in fact any interest or charge is. Registering an interest with the boat data service would be quick and extremely easy. Companies would need to go through a one off vetting procedure to authenticate themselves than it's a simple email.
The vehicle HPI service is a bit more complicated in that it works from a database which assumes it will have details of every vehicle in the UK. I envisage many enquiries coming back blank because there is no data for that vessel. Similarly there will be times when a number may relate to more than one vessel. It's down to the buyer to determine if the boat they're looking at is the one with the register listed.
Again, we have a similar thing with personalised number plates on cars.
Henry
I know every inch of the cars, I know where all the numbers should be, I know what they look like, what the paint finishes should be in various areas of the car to the point where I can spot when something's wrong. Some of the ringers that have been brought round have been fantastic. There's an Italian 993 that I've been offered 3 times now over the years and the bits are in the right places but there are a couple of tiny bits wrong.
So ultimately to simply run an HPI check isn't necessarily proof that all is well. I would argue that a boat is actually a little easier in that the engine numbers will be pretty easy to spot a tamper on due to the fact it will be stamped on the block and done with a machine which will be hard to replicate in the field. The supporting paperwork such as original bill of sale will also provided additional assurance that you've got the right boat.
All you're looking for is a simple database onto which you can hang invisible details such as finance. By keeping the costs low checking won't be seen as a financially arduous task and so done freely. It relies on finance companies to provide the right information but ultimately their customer will pay. A extra twenty quid isn't going to make any difference to the finance deal.
A good dealer or broker (oh god here we go again - if such a thing exists) will have the specialist knowledge required to know where the numbers are and what everything should look like. The database is merely a resource to be used in the same way as a hull moisture meter, a torch or a volt meter. The problem with things like finance is they are totally invisible, in fact any interest or charge is. Registering an interest with the boat data service would be quick and extremely easy. Companies would need to go through a one off vetting procedure to authenticate themselves than it's a simple email.
The vehicle HPI service is a bit more complicated in that it works from a database which assumes it will have details of every vehicle in the UK. I envisage many enquiries coming back blank because there is no data for that vessel. Similarly there will be times when a number may relate to more than one vessel. It's down to the buyer to determine if the boat they're looking at is the one with the register listed.
Again, we have a similar thing with personalised number plates on cars.
Henry
PaulGooch
Well-Known Member
I didn't think we were talking about ringers, cut and shuts and stolen boats. I thought we were talking a simple registry where lenders record their interest in a vessel and potential buyers check that register before buying a boat. It doesn't need to be that complicated and a company like HPI should be able to do it standing on there heads. HPI is only one company, but there are really only two companies anyway.
henryf
Well-Known Member
I use HPI only because we have been members for over 20 years, experian also offers a similar service.
The most common thing we come across finance wise is people thinking they can sell a car and legitimately keep making the finance payments using the lump sum from the sale elsewhere.
This is of course not the case with HP or a loan secured against the asset. A personal unsecured loan would allow you to act in this way though and there is often some confusion as to which type of loan has been taken out.
Henry
The most common thing we come across finance wise is people thinking they can sell a car and legitimately keep making the finance payments using the lump sum from the sale elsewhere.
This is of course not the case with HP or a loan secured against the asset. A personal unsecured loan would allow you to act in this way though and there is often some confusion as to which type of loan has been taken out.
Henry
gjgm
Well-Known Member
I guess we might be closer to this now anyway, as there are not many finance houses for boats, are there?
It seems from what you are saying that Part1 would pretty much work if there was a bit more discipline on behalf of lenders.
I totally agree with you though that even such a check is no more than one more bit of the jigsaw you put in place when buying a boat. I think though that isnt enough for some people-they want a gold plated money refundable assurance. I think that part would be alot more expensive because you are expecting someone to take on your risk, and you might ask yourselves why they would want to do that. Not for £15, I think.
Incidentally, Henry, I did buy that car. In the end I just paid them up front,as I deemed the risk of them being dishonest was so small as not to worth worrying about, and I couldnt be bothered taking a day off work, and trudging about Surrey.
It seems from what you are saying that Part1 would pretty much work if there was a bit more discipline on behalf of lenders.
I totally agree with you though that even such a check is no more than one more bit of the jigsaw you put in place when buying a boat. I think though that isnt enough for some people-they want a gold plated money refundable assurance. I think that part would be alot more expensive because you are expecting someone to take on your risk, and you might ask yourselves why they would want to do that. Not for £15, I think.
Incidentally, Henry, I did buy that car. In the end I just paid them up front,as I deemed the risk of them being dishonest was so small as not to worth worrying about, and I couldnt be bothered taking a day off work, and trudging about Surrey.
henryf
Well-Known Member
You're obviously a wealthier man than I !!!
I guess 25 years immersed in the muddy world of used cars makes me a little more synical than you. I have lost count of he number of scams, fiddles and tricks I've seen.
On the subject of finance house lending I think boats are potentially an interesting field in that many owners are also successful business people and there is a strong possibility that finance could be sourced from a "non standard" source. Picture the scene: multi million pound organisation, lending facility funds plant, vehicles machinery etc to the tune of several million pounds. Been with them since the dawn of time, rock solid relationship and the business doing very well indeed thank you.
A few quid needed to fund the boat, approaches the lender, "not really our bag but given our relationship Mr Jones more than happy to oblige on this occasion. Oh, will you be joining us in our box again at the Grand Prix?
So calls to the usual suspects would still draw a blank even though the thing was strapped up.
Henry
Brian Legal
Member
Mortgage
Thanks JFM. I am grateful for this information and agree with your other comments generally.
Brian
Thanks JFM. I am grateful for this information and agree with your other comments generally.
Brian
