Boot Düsseldorf 2019

[Portofino]

I know its a glib thing to say but if thats the case and that is the reason that boat prices outstrip inflation then maybe the boat industry should be looking for another material to make boats out of

There’s a lot of tree hugging politicians about, aside hardwoods arn,t exactly cheap anyhow .
Salt water and most cost effective metals are not ideally a match made in heaven and the likes of Pininfarina won,t be happy with design constraints.

It’s the waking up of developing countries wanting more consumer goods etc that forced up the resin(s) prices , raw materials that go into resins are also used on say a plastic bath or fridge linner ,demand for theses outstrips supply .

But as you say it’s a shame when you walk on a new boat theses days and spot in your face cheapness of minor details , door handles , light fittings , port lights , upholstery details , etc etc .
Labour is probably less in % terms and real terms due to trend to vac bag , move away from hand layering up etc .
Components I’d say are cheaper , stuff like reversing cam s and any SS steel work can be outsources from around the globe .

But the resin price is out of there control .

With planing boats weight is important so ferro cement is out , wholly carbon fibre expensive, how ever some builders have drifted towards CF , Cranchi use a lot , Baia and Otam are doing CF hulls .
Cranchi I think have found a away of going CF cheaply, but is it “ cheap “ because the floor has risen with conventional resins ? Making the switch doable ?

Princess R35 is Carbon F , so Priny are starting to pratt about with an alternative.

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

There’s a lot of tree hugging politicians about, aside hardwoods arn,t exactly cheap anyhow .

Well thats also the point. How long before some tree hugging politician thinks its a vote winner to target boats with gas guzzling engines and made out of materials based on oil? Anyone care to speculate how the Dutch manage to build very nice boats out of steel and aluminium at competitive prices and yet nobody seems to use that method in other countries?

 

[henryf]

Well thats also the point. How long before some tree hugging politician thinks its a vote winner to target boats with gas guzzling engines and made out of materials based on oil? Anyone care to speculate how the Dutch manage to build very nice boats out of steel and aluminium at competitive prices and yet nobody seems to use that method in other countries?

Generally speaking the Dutch boats will have smaller engines and fewer of them. I viewed the Elling E6 at Southampton for instance which as an off the wall option was delightful. Single main engine with a little D2 wing engine. I don't know the actual cost of half a traditional flybridge 65 foot power plant but suspect it would get the price down a chunk before you start looking elsewhere for savings.

Henry

 

[PowerYachtBlog]

Elling is GRP. I am sure Mike is speaking about Steeler, Wim Van der Valk (very nice new aft cabin from them), and Mulder. To name a few of my head.
Both Steel and wood are much expensive to GRP.

Government's cant stop plastic let alone building boats with it. The oil giants control this. A client of myn has green technology and engines ready on tap and will make battery cars look obsolete, yet no one in Europe is giving permits for his technology. Current battery cars Tesla included are big polluters and they consume as much as a diesel car to build and this doing 500k km, that is only to produce the car.
The World is really going from bad to worse. Yes when they run in the city they are clean but that is the only thing you get with battery cars.

Kevlar and Carbon Fiber. You cannot build a total boat with carbon fiber cause of its corrosive elements. Cranchi has been using Kevlar since early nineties, AFAIK they never used the CF.
Azimut and Pershing are using it on bits and peaces and some parts of super structure. Do not know how the Princess R35 but so far unless it is a high end custom builder they all do more or less the same.
So yes Otam can build a Carbon Fiber boat which is say 70% CF if you spec it.
Baia used CF (again in bits and peaces) for the One Hundred. Baia is closed since 2014.

 

[henryf]

A little nibble to keep us ticking over until dinner time courtesy of Princess then off to “The other lot…”




Sunseeker Manhattan 52. A few years ago this would have been an easy boat to review. “Feels tiny and dark when you step on board,” but with the Manhattan 52 Sunseeker squared up to Princess and took them on at their own game. Huge internal volume, large panels of glass to let the light in, all of a sudden they are are back on the radar. Before you even step up to the cockpit they have dealt Princess a handy uppercut with their crew cabin transom door. There’s no wriggling down stairs and trying to bend back on yourself here, just step in from the bathing platform meaning you could use the toilet when wet rather than having to walk through the main boat. You can also put the washing machine in there.

 

[henryf]

Once again an aft Galley and Sunseeker have resisted the temptation of boxing things in with an island return so you can get to everything nicely and make use of the full beam. They fail my full height fridge freezer test I’m afraid opting for a 3/4 fridge / small freezer. They have at least finally linked the cupboard door to the fridge door so they both open as one. Forward of the fridge is space for under counter cooling and ice making appliances.










Decent saloon seating although to get the best out of it you have to electrically fold the helm seat forward over the lower dash. It’s a bit of a Heath Robinson solution in my humble opinion, I don’t want to have to press buttons and wait for motors to slowly work away, besides, I quite like sitting on the helm seat chatting to people in the saloon area.

 

[henryf]

Good accommodation with full beam master, decent headroom, what seems to be the default settee on one side storage on the other, en suite bathroom, VIP forward with Jack & Jill bathroom, third twin cabin to starboard. Nothing is going to put you off here all the boxes are ticked given the length of boat. Something I always used to struggle with on a Sunseeker was the lift out panels in the lower accommodation flooring. I used to think it was an afterthought but a few years ago I was invited to the factory and finally learnt the truth - it allows easy access to any valves, pump sumps and so on. Now I find it quite reassuring.

 

[henryf]

Walking along the gunwale Sunseeker are another one of those builders who obviously think crew are easily replaceable because there are no hand rails. Assuming you make it in one piece there’s a step into rather than through bow seating area. It does concern me that you walk on the VIP cabin perspex hatch to use this area, I can see potential for damage. up on the flybridge there’s plenty of seating / lounging space but once again like so many boats at the show the forward screen / wind dodge is low and a long way forward so you’re going to get wet & windy. There is a pull up perspex screen for the helm but it’s another of Heath Robinson’s designs and I suspect it will keep working its way down as you go over waves.







Styling wise the Sunseeker makes a statement when out on the water. It’s big and bold, everyone will know you’ve arrived. This is probably the closest anything has come to knocking Princess off the mid 50 foot flybridge perch for us but all things being equal I think I’d still go Princess F55. I haven’t priced up either boats in the real world yet so that might have a bearing. On a new build you could easily address some issues like hand rails but the flybridge helm position and potential for wind & spray is what it is. I do like that crew cabin / beach washroom arrangement though on the Manhattan 52......

 

[henryf]

Sunseeker Manhattan 66.

The crew cabin on this has twin bunks and another great transom mounted door for easy entry








This is another boat from the Poole maker that’s gone head to head with Princess in the internal volume / glass wall department. It feels spacious inside and has a separate staircase going down to the full beam master bedroom in answer to the Princess 68 flybridge (now the Princess F70) although in this case the stairs are aft rather than mid ships. Once in the master stateroom you have your own space away from invited guests. A good sized wardrobe cupboard and he bathroom is generous although Sunseeker didn’t leave any toilet paper in there. Oh come on, I can’t be the only person who enjoys scaring sales people by shouting out to ask if they have any toilet paper when viewing a boat at an indoor show…

 

[henryf]

Back up into the saloon / Galley area, Sunseeker have gone for an open galley with sideboard opposite. Princess have an enclosed galley with dinette opposite. I’m in two minds here, I do like a dinette area but an open galley means everything is easy to get at. Decisions decisions…. I’m also not sure how I feel about the fixed bar stools in the cockpit which serve the island which is created when you open the window joining the galley, obviously they are an option if buying new.










Saloon seating is generous and the small sofa to port opposite the helm allows people to see where they are going and keep the skipper company when underway. I like that a lot. The helm position feels like it means business there must be a Bentley out there missing it’s front seats given the quilted leather work. A quality electrically locking side door gets you out onto the starboard gunwale and then on to the step through seating area. This is proper step through seating in contrast to the Manhattan 52, a sofa aft and lounging area forward.

 

[henryf]

Carrying on past the lower helm you go down to the poor people’s, sorry - guest accommodation. Forward VIP with en-suite bathroom and a pair of twin cabins one of which shares an en-suite with the day / 4th cabin bathroom on a Jack & Jill basis. Nothing is going to upset you here and Sunseeker aren’t trying to re-invent the wheel. It’s a versatile layout that suits kids, friends and family. Just don’t let any of them think they’re getting their grubby mitts on your master suite.





The flybridge on the 66 has twin seats at the helm then a couple of seating bays the rear of which has a good sized table. Sunseeker have once again set the helm position back a long way from the already low windscreen / dodge so expect wind and spray. They have also put sun lounging cushions in front of the helm which I really dislike. I’m just as happy staring at a nice nice busty gym bunny as the next man but not when she’s getting in the way of my spotting lobster pots and other associated flotsam or jetsam.







As with the Manhattan 52 v Princess F55 I haven’t done a real world price comparison between the Sunseeker Manhattan 66 and the Princess F70 so don’t know how they compare but between them I do think they give the boating world a good run for their money in terms of use of internal space. My gut feel is that we’d opt for the Princess but that’s to be expected as we’ve owned the brand for over 10 years now, either way a good bit of kit from Sunseeker and a huge thanks to Jamie Coombes of Sunseeker Torquay who adopted us several years ago and is always happy (in public at least) to spend time showing us round at the various shows.

 

[Portofino]

If there’s not a great deal in it decision wise apart from brand loyalty ,personally I would take a test drive preferably with a bit of a sea .
That’s why Cannes , Genoa and the Ferretti Monaco preview shows are a imho are real eye openers .

I think I have mentioned this before , we were wooed by a Riva Rivale 52 , seen a few at shows etc ,but the test drive was a huge disappointment.After that we just shut down on Riva 50 ftrs .
Slammed and rode a bit too bow high - I couldn’t live with that .

So @ least one of the 4 above I bet is a shocker , you have allready intimated fly splash based on your current experience.

Anyhow agree one has to sort a short list , start from somewhere.

 

[henryf]

I do still have a left of centre choice still to come.....

But I do take on board your comments on a sea trial. Many moons ago I took an American boat out that looked great value, around £85k all in brand new inc 2 diesel lumps. The damn thing fell apart on a sea trial out of Eastbourne. Cupboard doors were all over the place. Probably a great boat for lake work.

Henry

 

[PowerYachtBlog]

I think I have mentioned this before , we were wooed by a Riva Rivale 52 , seen a few at shows etc ,but the test drive was a huge disappointment.After that we just shut down on Riva 50 ftrs .
Slammed and rode a bit too bow high - I couldn’t live with that .

Lets be honest with this. You come from an Itama 42 (48) a pure deep Vee hull boat with perfect balance.

Turn how much you want, go twenty feet bigger, but the reality is that, they do not make them like that anymore. Not an Itama FG is the same to your original.
A Riva would make a good comparison to most recent Squeekers, Princess, or Fairline possibly even ride better.
But to a pre 2005 Itama or a Magnum, or some of the Otam's I say just forget it.

 

[EricJ]

Elling is GRP. I am sure Mike is speaking about Steeler, Wim Van der Valk (very nice new aft cabin from them), and Mulder. To name a few of my head.
Both Steel and wood are much expensive to GRP.

I think Van der Valk and Mulder are in a different segment than production builders like Linssen and Boarnstream Elegance series. A Linssen 500 costs about 1.5 million euros, not too far off a similar sized production planing boat. The smaller Linssens appear to me as relatively good value compared to a 40-45 ft planing boat.
Is it perhaps the scale of production; anyone know how many boats Linssen build in a year?

 

[MrB]

Your show write-ups are second to none Henry, looking forward to the next installment. :encouragement:

 

[MapisM]

Turn how much you want, go twenty feet bigger, but the reality is that, they do not make them like that anymore.

Bingo.
I was going to reply to Porto - for this very same reason - that a seatrial would actually be a waste of time, rather than an eye opener.
Long gone are the days when hull design was the starting point for a boat builder: nowadays the hull is just a shell made to accomodate the interiors that the designer wants/needs.
And in a sense, this very thread proves that this is a smart choice, from a marketing viewpoint.

Btw, the M52 and F55 are two examples which I very much enjoyed reading about, because they are - almost to the inch - exactly the same size of my DP.
But based on henryf report, even without having seen them in flesh, I can easily guess that both feel like larger boats.

OTOH, the technical comparison is also interesting - even if just on paper.
So, I went through the MBY review of the F55, and I noticed several remarkable differences.
I'm summarizing them below, with one caveat: the hull of my boat was originally designed (as a 52', albeit later heavily evolved/refined) in the late 80s. Therefore, it's a comparison that includes a 30 years gap in hull design, no less.
We might expect to find improvements comparable to those which we witnessed in cars, airplanes, whatever - right?
Bear with me.

1) sizewise, as I said my DP is almost identical to the F55. But she has no hilo platform, so the WLL is actually longer. By 3 feet or so, I would guess? The same goes for the M52, btw.
2) tankage is the same, aside from fresh water, which in my DP is almost double.
3) engine power is also the same, though obviously the F55 has electronically controlled (hence supposedly more frugal) engines.
4) displacement is 3T less in the F55.
5) max speed is 3kts lower in the F55.
6) fuel burn is very close to 10 l/Nm in the F55 at cruising speed, just about anywhere between 20 and 26kts. Believe it or not, that's almost 30% higher than in my DP, which burns between 7 and 7.5 l/Nm in the very same speed range. And that's in spite of the higher displacement and the (much) older engines.
7) this obviously translates in a proportionally lower range in the F55, which is actually a bit disappointing, at 220Nm or so.

Now, on this basis, does it take a seatrial to understand which hull is more efficient and better balanced?
And that's without even start considering, as PYB said, more performance-oriented open boats, whose hulls obviously can't be found in any f/b, neither the new nor the "old school" ones...

 

[Portofino]

MapisM I think you have missed the point by knocking what I took as PYB ,s kind back handed compliment to a typical “ old school “ hull .
The seatrial is very important to shake out ( pun actually intended) anything you can’t see on PAPER or screen .
You are right the ride and wave crushing card in my deck of cards ends up near the top in shuffle , but each buyer has basically the same deck ( another pun ) shuffled into a his / her personal order .

Eg list not exhaustive there will be more .
Typically.
Wet rid inc soaked FB in “ normal “ waves - hassle of wiping salt water up every time .
Manoeuvreing people about while the boats underway - stuff like access to the bow in a chop .
Noise .
Bow running attitude.
Any stair attitude change because of the running angle .
Odd noises like always hearing when someone’s gone for a shit ,
Exhaust blow back and noise .
Doors having minds of there own .
Bimini shade = too much , not enough, wrong area etc .
FB overhang - as above .
Lower helm view running .
Rear blind spots a actually parking , not in the exhibition hall . what it feels like to click reverse 2 or less M from concrete .
How much lurch either Fwds or Rev from a “ click “ of the sticks .
Bow thruster feel .
Shaking floors cupboards self opening .
Green house effect if Med based ,
Aircon efficiencies and niose If med based .
Steaming up internal windows - demister efficiency if N climate based .
Lower ventilation in the upper saloon .
Ease of marina manoeuvres if applicable?

Then add all those sensations/ thoughts / gut feelings / pet hates / loves / pleasant surprises into the info from paper and the exhibition hall , sprinkle a bit of VFM - real or man maths and then only then get your pen out and sign the dotted line .

Performance.
Paper Vs actual .
I don,t think any mpg or fuel burn is gonna be the decider .
Range might come up on some folks radar and a conversation with the builder re extra long range tank may follow .
Optmun cruise speed will figure though in real life .
Paper may say 24 knots @ 1850 rpm - yummy sounds good , but the bow high and slamming ( can’t see that on paper or the exhibition hall ) mean in other than a mill pond that number in reality is 20/22 knots .
Meanwhile a rival might purr along at 25/26 knots never needs to go north of 2000 rpm in all but the nastiest chops , certainly eveyday ensvisaged useage seas ., be dry up to and have superior ride etc .

One may get up at say 14 knots while another 18 knots .The latter will have a tendency to be kicked off the plane in a big headsea if it’s down to 20 knots , once at D start rolling until the waves allow it get back up .


As I said I can’t see all 4 being equal after a sea trail , they may mentally be there or there abouts in the exhibition hall , but a good sea trai will sort the wheat from the chaff .

 

[MapisM]

As I said I can’t see all 4 being equal after a sea trail

But that's the point: I do. And as I understood, that's what also PYB was saying ("Turn how much you want, go twenty feet bigger, etc.").
I mean, I'm not sure of what boats you are referring to as "all 4", since in this thread also much larger boats where mentioned (up to the Y85), and obviously the comparisons must be made between... ermm.. comparable boats, to state the obvious.

So, let's stick to the F55 and the M52. And let's throw in the Fer550, which is arguably one of their main competitors.
Do you think that after a sea trial anyone could sort the wheat from the chaff? Really?

My bet is that you would call all of them chaff - and I could understand why, mind.
Me, being less fussy, I'd probably rate all of them good enough as floating caravans, which is what they are really meant to be, after all.
Otherwise, I would have sticked to the only hull form known to mankind which can really be called seaworthy, i.e. full displacement.
But that's all irrelevant anyway, because neither of us is going to sign on the dotted line for a brand new mid-50' flybridge, which is the only thing builders are really interested in, at the end of the day. And rightly so, of course.

So, back to seatrial, my money is on the fact that ANY of these boats would come through as wheat in a seatrial (and with flying colours!) to most if not all of the real punters. Which brings those same punters back to square one, i.e. deciding based on which joystick is easier to maneuver, how conveniently the BBQ is positioned, and so forth...

 

[MapisM]

I don,t think any mpg or fuel burn is gonna be the decider

I meant to say, but I forgot: I fully agree on that.
Again, if I wouldn't be aware that fuel is a relatively minor component of boat TCO, I wouldn't have moved from a 2 l/Nm boat to a 7 l/Nm one.
But fuel burn is the easier, and at the same time pretty accurate, way of comparing a boat efficiency and balance, for any given weight and speed.
That's what I was after with my train of thought, not fuel burn per se.