Boats.co.uk no longer Princess Dealer

[PowerYachtBlog]

Yes. I think they would be an excellent fit and it would be an interesting product not currently satisfied by any of the UK builders.

I actually think Fairline missed a trick not building a Sirena type motorboat 10 years ago.

Have not all the British builders missed this boat.
In 2009 Azimut came out with the Magellano, which re-invented the segment of lets call it European styled Explorer yachts and all the rest is history.
Speaking how to re-invent a segment. But Azimut always does that whether you like it or not. Sirena is an Azimut Magellano copy with more room cause of the more beam.
I actually think would be better as an Azimut dealer then a Sirena one, since Sirena is too small for the operation and sales Boats.co.uk does.

I think you speak for the Squadron 50 (2012) more then the 53 which came out in 2015/16 just before they went down or after.

In 2008 Fairline presented the Squadron 55 which was one of the best midships cabin boats in her class. Better then the Princess 58 available at the time, and even the Italian offerings.
I think omly the Ferretti 560 and its astern galley was a better boat to the Sq 55. The Sq55 was let down more by its lousy electrical system then the boat itself.
The 55 will become a 58 in 2011 and a 60 in 2012 thanks to a longer swim platform.

But yes your Princess 50 mkIII which has the P54 hull shortened was a better boat in space then the Squadron 50, and the 53 (same boat with an extended platform and a reinvented layout) that came after, thanks also to the extra beam,

 

[henryf]

Which begs the Q what’s about to happen at Princess for those without ostrich syndrome

If I was Henry I would be wanting to beef up my security right now .Move it to def com 1


Yes I don’t buy into the sales twaddle vid presentation .
pleeeeese “A four inch brush “ and stuff like “ door lacquer” .

It’s all about the deal aka £££ .
Either Princess have cut there share of the take , the sales £ .
Or / and they have tightened up on the cash flow side of customer cash .Or / and possibly in reward some how liability of spreading risk financially down from themselves to BUK .

Or BUK ( wise men good inside knowledge) know LVT are about to offload imminently ? BUK do not like the cut of the new prospects jib .

BUK would have been afforded better terms with FL , and sought assurance s Princess can’t offer going fwds .= jump out from Prinny into bed with FL .

Why sell another 10 Priny s this year expose yourself greater risk , when you could sell 6 FLs with a better risk profile for more / less same bottom line .

Always follow the money in business .

Certainly not the smell of lacquer or size of gel coat brushes .You has to hand it them sales men all the way .James will be selling sand to the Arabs next

Blimey pull the other one .

You do talk some absolute drivel.

I’ve seen the Princess factory, I‘ve seen boats in production, every one with scheduled payments received, a genuine order and lots of big stuff in there. Nothing is being built on spec, the long waiting lists mean Princess are building what folk want And they have fine tuned production to the point where they don’t waste time on custom builds. They are also selling to a worldwide audience. They had 2 delivery ships that had been delayed and I saw the stacked up product ready to go on that next week.

Fairline are a relative cottage industry who have already gone out of business once in recent times and haven’t re-invested to the point where they have genuine new product. It’s all re-hashed versions of what are very old boats and production methods now. They will also build what ever you want, umpteen interior versions, galley up, down, in the middle, 3 cabin, 4 cabin, 2 cabin and a study, 1 cabin, a creche and a walk in wardrobe. That all takes time and makes it impossible to utilise efficient production lines with just in time component supply. It also means every boat is a one off with problems to overcome.

And you’re suggesting Fairline are more financially secure. Good luck.

Everyone has been very grown up and pleasant about it but the fact is Princess / Princess Sales UK don’t need Boats.co.uk any more. They are selling the entire factory production without needing to feed any more mouths. I had the same issue at Sirena. They are working all out to supply existing dealers without looking to take on additional outlets in the UK. Maybe in a couple of years they will but not now.

Princess the factory are reaping the rewards of their investment. They can put prices up, they don’t need to be controlled by dealers as much. They still need to work together, they aren’t going to burn any bridges but they will say no when it’s appropriate. I know because I’ve just bought a boat. I could have got more of a deal out of Fairline but their product wasn’t right for us. I purposely haven’t used the phrase wasn’t good enough because this is a friendly forum. It wasn’t right for us.

 

[Parabolica]

Interesting to read some of the above comments. From my experience the industry they are all in somewhat dictates the quality of the products from them all however the big two, Princess and Sunseeker are always pushing their boundaries forward with continual investment into newer technology.

Sealine back when they were at Kidderminster, towards their sad end in this country, were genuinely trying hard to do the same but I feel that their design philosophy at that time probably bit them from which they didn't recover. It was a great shame for the people there who were a good team and trying so hard, whether they were indeed postmen or not.

Fairline I think have a hard game of catch up to play still. At Southampton in Sept I was very disappointed with how wobbly their mouldings looked on what should be their flagship products. This just goes to show that they still are not investing in decent plugs and tooling, likely all made cheap and overseas whereas the other two at least have inhouse facilities or invest in the UK supply where they can no doubt, monitor and kick back if not acceptable. They were once the mark of the highest quality but it's such a shame to see they are so far from that place now.

Re the OP's comment on sales, I suppose with boats selling so quickly now, the manufacturers can look at their agreements in place to try and ensure a more structured future and stronger sales pipeline but as we have all seen so many times before, it's a cyclic world and problem times will of course come back round again in due course. Let's hope they are all well prepared for them when they do.

Comments are all my own of course.

 

[henryf]

Have not all the British builders missed this boat.
In 2009 Azimut came out with the Magellano, which re-invented the segment of lets call it European styled Explorer yachts and all the rest is history.
Speaking how to re-invent a segment. But Azimut always does that whether you like it or not. Sirena is an Azimut Magellano copy with more room cause of the more beam.
I actually think would be better as an Azimut dealer then a Sirena one, since Sirena is too small for the operation and sales Boats.co.uk does.

I think you speak for the Squadron 50 (2012) more then the 53 which came out in 2015/16 just before they went down or after.

In 2008 Fairline presented the Squadron 55 which was one of the best midships cabin boats in her class. Better then the Princess 58 available at the time, and even the Italian offerings.
I think omly the Ferretti 560 and its astern galley was a better boat to the Sq 55. The Sq55 was let down more by its lousy electrical system then the boat itself.
The 55 will become a 58 in 2011 and a 60 in 2012 thanks to a longer swim platform.

But yes your Princess 50 mkIII which has the P54 hull shortened was a better boat in space then the Squadron 50, and the 53 (same boat with an extended platform and a reinvented layout) that came after, thanks also to the extra beam,

Yes, I think they have missed a trick. Don’t forget Sirena built / build boats for Azimut so there is possibly no surprise in comparing the two.

 

[Portofino]

You do talk some absolute drivel.

I’ve seen the Princess factory, I‘ve seen boats in production, every one with scheduled payments received, a genuine order and lots of big stuff in there. Nothing is being built on spec, the long waiting lists mean Princess are building what folk want And they have fine tuned production to the point where they don’t waste time on custom builds. They are also selling to a worldwide audience. They had 2 delivery ships that had been delayed and I saw the stacked up product ready to go on that next week.

Fairline are a relative cottage industry who have already gone out of business once in recent times and haven’t re-invested to the point where they have genuine new product. It’s all re-hashed versions of what are very old boats and production methods now. They will also build what ever you want, umpteen interior versions, galley up, down, in the middle, 3 cabin, 4 cabin, 2 cabin and a study, 1 cabin, a creche and a walk in wardrobe. That all takes time and makes it impossible to utilise efficient production lines with just in time component supply. It also means every boat is a one off with problems to overcome.

And you’re suggesting Fairline are more financially secure. Good luck.

Everyone has been very grown up and pleasant about it but the fact is Princess / Princess Sales UK don’t need Boats.co.uk any more. They are selling the entire factory production without needing to feed any more mouths. I had the same issue at Sirena. They are working all out to supply existing dealers without looking to take on additional outlets in the UK. Maybe in a couple of years they will but not now.

Princess the factory are reaping the rewards of their investment. They can put prices up, they don’t need to be controlled by dealers as much. They still need to work together, they aren’t going to burn any bridges but they will say no when it’s appropriate. I know because I’ve just bought a boat. I could have got more of a deal out of Fairline but their product wasn’t right for us. I purposely haven’t used the phrase wasn’t good enough because this is a friendly forum. It wasn’t right for us.

As is said ostrich syndrome. You are demonstrating it very competently .

Do you really buy the “4 inch brush “and hand “ lacquer “ cock n bull reasons for the switch given in the vid .
And the “ we have done our bit in 6 yrs “ Why jump off a gravy train if it’s making £ ? Ans you don’t.
They could and do hold multiple franchise as do many boat dealers .
A vid BU.K. volunteered btw .

No need for the insults re “ drivel “ btw . I wasn’t expecting everyone to see through the smoke / mirrors vid like I did .I was right .

Put simply .
Once LVT ( the sugar daddy ) drops Priny ……….It ain’t what you take , it’s what you make .

With S/Skr - Ferretti- and indeed FL they have friendly sugar daddies.

I was first on here to flag up FLs imminent decline / bankruptcy and received derision / insults from the FL fan boys .

Rhino skin etc .

 

[henryf]

As is said ostrich syndrome. You are demonstrating it very competently .

Do you really buy the “4 inch brush “and hand “ lacquer “ cock n bull reasons for the switch given in the vid .
And the “ we have done our bit in 6 yrs “ Why jump off a gravy train if it’s making £ ? Ans you don’t.
They could and do hold multiple franchise as do many boat dealers .
A vid BU.K. volunteered btw .

No need for the insults re “ drivel “ btw . I wasn’t expecting everyone to see through the smoke / mirrors vid like I did .I was right .

Put simply .
Once LVT ( the sugar daddy ) drops Priny ……….It ain’t what you take , it’s what you make .

With S/Skr - Ferretti- and indeed FL they have friendly sugar daddies.

I was first on here to flag up FLs imminent decline / bankruptcy and received derision / insults from the FL fan boys .

Rhino skin etc .

Did you read beyond my first sentence?

I gave my thinking behind the split as well as responding to your claim that b.c.uk felt more financially secure with Fairline ?

If Fairline can find a buyer I’m pretty sure Princess will manage should they ever come up for sale. They are certainly investing in some fairly chunky kit for a business which is as close to the edge as you claim. I was particularly impressed with the massive CNC capability for hull forms and major components.

With everything from F45s to X95s flying out the door and order books full through next year what exactly is my ostrich head missing?

I’m not an accountant or a financial whizz. I don’t claim to know how the world of corporate finance or investment banking works but I understand the basic principles of selling stuff and making money. Presumably a friendly sugar daddy could easily get led astray by the next flight of fancy or throw their toys out of the pram. A more conservative and established brand wouldn’t bite the feeding hand or cut their nose off to spite their face?

Margins on large boats are very different to small luxury items but they have a definite attraction.

 

[MapisM]

I could have got more of a deal out of Fairline but their product wasn’t right for us. I purposely haven’t used the phrase wasn’t good enough because this is a friendly forum. It wasn’t right for us.

An interesting way to actually stress that it wasn't good enough while formally pretend to not even mention it, if I've ever seen one.
You Brits have weird ways to call a spade a spade, sometimes.

 

[petem]

@henryf, I think you're talking drivel too.

The Targa 63, Squadron 68, Targa 43 and F/line 33 (and their variants) were entirely new boats designed by Mancini / Vripack.

And I don't know where you get the idea of Princess reaping any rewards, they've been losing money for years. And that's proper losses, not just fancy accounting ones to avoid tax.

 

[Portofino]

I gave my thinking behind the split as well as responding to your claim that b.c.uk felt more financially secure with Fairline ?

If Fairline can find a buyer I’m pretty sure Princess will manage should they ever come up for sale.

Its not yours or mine or indeed anyone else’s reasons that are coming into to question its BUKs .They said it the cock n bull reasons .I have have critiqued them and thus far nobody’s challenged my criticisms .

Do you actually switch franchise because you have sold a lot , done well out of it , prefer a certain brush size in one tiny part of the manufacturing process or a certain prerequisite number of coats of lacquer? You know then give those THE reasons in a vid .

I know folk get blinded by the light shining out of salesmen’s arses , but come on there ‘s gotta be more behind this ?

Any one know from a real estate pov , the viability of the Priny site(s) for redevelopment?
I mean LVT off load it and new owner shuts it down and builds on the sites . P+L account is so bad it’s only worth the ground it’s standing on .Which might be worth a bob or two .

How is Fletcher doing btw ?
Is the old Sealine site a housing estate / supermarket site yet ?

 

[jrudge]

I am not sure why you choose to sling mud Henry.

If you became a Porsche dealer would your customers feel betrayed? If you did that I would simply be as it was better for your business.

I bough a boat from Fairline / boats just before the stuff hit the fan with Fairline.

Boats were ( rightly) concerned that they had a bigger balance sheet than Fairline and the contract the buyer has was with them. If FL failed Boats were on the line and they are worth going after given they own - amongst other things - a marina.

Fairline was not doing well. This was no secret.

There was an adequate deal on the table from Princess. The Barkes are good at shifting boats and PYMS had a mountain of them to shift. Once that was over they were a sub dealer to PYMS and paying them 5% ( I believe) on the deal. Boat makes goes mad, not much left to sell.

What would you do? Continue as a sub dealer with not much stock to sell or look wider.

If you say the former then I dont believe you.

They know Fairline as do their customers. They have passed through several hands. Is it all rosey? To me no it is not. It is better than it was? Probably yes. They have a range of new boats, the 68 is great. Do they need to do more? Yes in my view - presumably as money allows. Are the Barkes better off being a distributor for Fairline in the major markets ( Mallorca etc and the prior customers ( which is about half the boat buying public!) the answer to that to me seems yes.

Like you they run a business. They stuck with Princess for 6 years which was not a flash in the pan and now back to Fairline. I hope they make a success of it.

 

[ari]

Its not yours or mine or indeed anyone else’s reasons that are coming into to question its BUKs .They said it the cock n bull reasons .I have have critiqued them and thus far nobody’s challenged my criticisms .

Do you actually switch franchise because you have sold a lot , done well out of it , prefer a certain brush size in one tiny part of the manufacturing process or a certain prerequisite number of coats of lacquer? You know then give those THE reasons in a vid .

I know folk get blinded by the light shining out of salesmen’s arses , but come on there ‘s gotta be more behind this ?

Any one know from a real estate pov , the viability of the Priny site(s) for redevelopment?
I mean LVT off load it and new owner shuts it down and builds on the sites . P+L account is so bad it’s only worth the ground it’s standing on .Which might be worth a bob or two .

How is Fletcher doing btw ?
Is the old Sealine site a housing estate / supermarket site yet ?

I do so enjoy your theories, they're never not entertaining!

 

[PowerYachtBlog]

I think many folks are also missing that Fairline now, has a British investor, and Derrick Carter is back as chairman.
This last facilitates a lot of of things for Essex / BoatsUK having them dealt with him in the past for some years.

tbh I think they are better off with Fairline since they where a sub dealer for Princess, and surely the UK market share if Fairline can hold its own and improve will be growing again.

Still Henry is correct when he says that the Princess product is ahead in design and placement to what Fairline is atm.

Fairline have a couple spots though which are better to Princesses the Targa 45 has a place where both Sunseeker and Princess are not present. A competitor here would be the Azimut Atlantis 45.
The Targa 48/50 is better outside to the V50, and also can have the bigger D8 engines. Princess is updating the V50 for 2022 but sadly it will still take only the D6. Yes the V50 has a better interior layout.
The F//Line 33 has also won the battle versus the expensive R35 and is also a much better boat overall who is always been improved.
Possibly a mistake for Fairline was that they should have left the Targa 38 GT in production considering that she was as good a boat as the current V40 IMO. She had nothing less to it.

 

[henryf]

I am not sure why you choose to sling mud Henry.

If you became a Porsche dealer would your customers feel betrayed? If you did that I would simply be as it was better for your business.

I bough a boat from Fairline / boats just before the stuff hit the fan with Fairline.

Boats were ( rightly) concerned that they had a bigger balance sheet than Fairline and the contract the buyer has was with them. If FL failed Boats were on the line and they are worth going after given they own - amongst other things - a marina.

Fairline was not doing well. This was no secret.

There was an adequate deal on the table from Princess. The Barkes are good at shifting boats and PYMS had a mountain of them to shift. Once that was over they were a sub dealer to PYMS and paying them 5% ( I believe) on the deal. Boat makes goes mad, not much left to sell.

What would you do? Continue as a sub dealer with not much stock to sell or look wider.

If you say the former then I dont believe you.

They know Fairline as do their customers. They have passed through several hands. Is it all rosey? To me no it is not. It is better than it was? Probably yes. They have a range of new boats, the 68 is great. Do they need to do more? Yes in my view - presumably as money allows. Are the Barkes better off being a distributor for Fairline in the major markets ( Mallorca etc and the prior customers ( which is about half the boat buying public!) the answer to that to me seems yes.

Like you they run a business. They stuck with Princess for 6 years which was not a flash in the pan and now back to Fairline. I hope they make a success of it.

I'm countering Portofino's suggestion that they moved because Fairline was financially safer.

As I've said before on here I was initially a bit suspicious of Bcuk. They were, and still are proper dealers at a time when Princess were ultra conservative - they're just conservative now But they won nothing but praise from their customers and I would have no hesitation in buying from them, I think they're good guys. Their videos are an acquired taste but you know where you stand. They're human beings. I'd buy a boat off them but I wouldn't get them to video my next wedding.

What they did bring to the table was a desire to get a deal done. Part exchanges were retailed to maximise allowances when previously they were just traded out and they went the extra mile. As things stand Princess will be squeezing dealer margins now the order book is full just as customers are being squeezed with steady price increases. There is some great product in the Princess catalogue but Princess are a steady machine, you're never going to suddenly hit pay dirt and get rich overnight as a dealer particularly with the limited number of boats offered to them. Fairline on the other hand may yet come good and could be a golden opportunity from a dealer standpoint.

I don't follow the Targas Pete. I looked at the Princess V52 and thought it a better boat than the equivalent Targa by some margin, bigger inside and less messy outside particularly from the back but ultimately I'm a flybridge man, I don't have your good looks !

With Fairline Bcuk can and I suspect will be their dominant dealer before too long. They can have a bigger influence at the factory, enjoy better margins, get some good stock boat deals and so on. If the timing is right and Fairline come up with some new models which go head to head with the likes of Princess then happy days, Bcuk look set to do very well. But that does depend on Fairline coming up with the goods and I don't know if they will or can. Thus far I personally have been disappointed in the sector I buy, the new 55 foot flybridge could be winner who knows? The only thing I would say is that a lot of the spacial gain inside boats comes from resin infusion so we are told, that seems at odds with a 4 inch paint brush.

Either way the pairing could be a win win. It's won't happen overnight but let's see.

 

[oldgit]

Angels dancing on the end of well lacquered pin ? ................

Just pleased the great unwashed with our snotty noses presssed up against the window of the toyshop out there on the bleak windswept marshes of ESSEX , still have a well respected dealer catering for all levels of boating right on our doorstep.

 

[henryf]

Angels dancing on the end of well lacquered pin ? ................

Just pleased the great unwashed with our snotty noses presssed up against the window of the toyshop out there on the bleak windswept marshes of ESSEX , still have a well respected dealer catering for all levels of boating right on our doorstep.

Indeed. Find me a marina or a river estuary that hasn't got one of their Arvors or a Parker bobbing away on it.....

Feet firmly on the ground in a good way.

 

[Parabolica]

If Fairline can find a buyer I’m pretty sure Princess will manage should they ever come up for sale. They are certainly investing in some fairly chunky kit for a business which is as close to the edge as you claim. I was particularly impressed with the massive CNC capability for hull forms and major components..

Can I just point out that Princess sold their large 5-axis CNC mill in January 2020. They have small mills now to manufacture the smaller items of their yachts and outsource the large plugs and mould tools which makes far more sense. I think a lot of these brands are starting to try and follow a more automotive philosophy whereupon they design and engineer their product (very well I might add), then competitively outsource component manufacture to then be assembled in house as a far better cost controlled process.

 

[PowerYachtBlog]

I think it shows that they are out of the large production super yachts at least for now. Do they still have the large yard or that was sold?

Princess has been for sale (unofficially since 2015), but LV is asking a lot of money for it. Hence it has not been sold.
Last I heard they where trying to go public in around 2019 but did a step back when they saw FG withdrawing.
Sanlorenzo success in the stock market did not entice them to retry.

 

[Parabolica]

I think it shows that they are out of the large production super yachts at least for now. Do they still have the large yard or that was sold?

Princess has been for sale (unofficially since 2015), but LV is asking a lot of money for it. Hence it has not been sold.
Last I heard they where trying to go public in around 2019 but did a step back when they saw FG withdrawing.
Sanlorenzo success in the stock market did not entice them to retry.

I think all if the big three, by which i mean Sunseeker, Princess and Fairline have been taken by surprise at the demand for their products since lockdown 1 ended. That demand they can ride until their supply has caught up with it. I do hope that their planning teams manage that supply too so that when this demand subsides, they don’t all immediately fall upon hard times again as we’ve all seen before.

Re Princess being for sale, that i’m not aware of but i know they are a focussed team doing their utmost to ensure their product is current and manufactured to a very high standard. Anthony Sherriff knows his stuff when it comes to production manufacturing and also how to please clients too. Remember he was the successful CEO at Mclaren before they ruined the brand with that muppett, Flewitt.

Fairline are again fighting their way back hard from a once great past where they possibly made at that time (2006-2009), the most premium product of the three before the economic downturn ripped through the industry. I wasn’t aware that Derek Carter had returned but i wish him well in continuing to improve Fairlines fortunes.

What both are up against however, is the Sunseeker design team which in my view, at present, are absolutely knocking it out of the park ! And their manufacturing team is similarly reinvigorated it seems as the current product from Poole is proper A-game in my opinion.

Regards to the size of what they are now building, Fairline are still dictated too by their location being land locked and i feel sure both Princess and Sunseeker tried the big yachts and found them not to be the hoped for golden egg.

The world being the cyclic place it is though, we’ll see it all come round again as was, of that I am certain.

 

[PowerYachtBlog]

No doubt Princess is selling boats like hot cakes, and they have been doing it since some time. They have a focused team since ten years now.
Personally some of the glazing they are doing I do not like as some of the Pininfarina models.... But that is my cup of tea.
It is like a conservative model with too much bottox and plastic going on.

What Princess has not turned in the last ten or so years is a decent profit.
I think for LV Princess was not the brand they hoped even though to be fair they reinvigorated it a lot and put a lot of investment, and even the bad years of 2010-15 where good times at Princess, at least in terms of sales.
As I said it is not officially for sale, like Fairline was and still is. FL current owners are Legend and they do that as the main job. Still I agree FL is a much better position now as with the Russian ownership.
I think the Russians where misguided, and possibly if Fairline followed a model to what Pearl did may be they would have better success to what they wanted to invest.

LV Group is like Legend but much more conservative. They can wait a lot of time to sell it since for them Princess is just a very small number in the portfolio. Think something like .05%
So small that they do not even show it on there website LVMH, world leader in high-quality products
It is this or because they want to unload it which is what has been said here in the past.

Yes I agree the Sunseeker design team especially with the vision of Frabetti is way ahead of everyone else in the UK. They should not let Frabetti escape till he would want to retire.
Also Frabetti is loving the brand and what it represents.

 

[Parabolica]

No doubt Princess is selling boats like hot cakes, and they have been doing it since some time. They have a focused team since ten years now.
Personally some of the glazing they are doing I do not like as some of the Pininfarina models.... But that is my cup of tea.
It is like a conservative model with too much bottox and plastic going on.

What Princess has not turned in the last ten or so years is a decent profit.
I think for LV Princess was not the brand they hoped even though to be fair they reinvigorated it a lot and put a lot of investment, and even the bad years of 2010-15 where good times at Princess, at least in terms of sales.
As I said it is not officially for sale, like Fairline was and still is. FL current owners are Legend and they do that as the main job. Still I agree FL is a much better position now as with the Russian ownership.
I think the Russians where misguided, and possibly if Fairline followed a model to what Pearl did may be they would have better success to what they wanted to invest.

LV Group is like Legend but much more conservative. They can wait a lot of time to sell it since for them Princess is just a very small number in the portfolio. Think something like .05%
So small that they do not even show it on there website LVMH, world leader in high-quality products
It is this or because they want to unload it which is what has been said here in the past.

Yes I agree the Sunseeker design team especially with the vision of Frabetti is way ahead of everyone else in the UK. They should not let Frabetti escape till he would want to retire.
Also Frabetti is loving the brand and what it represents.

Makes sense.
I think profit, proper profit that is. The likes of which most business owners would expect to warrant the no doubt sleepless nights involved, has escaped most if these brands for seemingly ever. However now, hoping things are better, right now at least, are they really not making anything or is what is being made, just being sent upline in management charges to the parent brand. Could be the same with the others. Whoever of us really knows.