Boat sharing

[petem]

Despite predictions to the contrary, I've had a good response to my ads for people to share a Phantom 40 with me. So much so, that I'm now considering a reserve list.

One gentleman has said that he's like to have a share with his brother so that each of them could use the boat. Do you think this is fair or should they be buying two shares?

Also, with such a small number of sharers, there could be an imbalance of use. For example, from my allowance of 3 months use, I may only use the boat for three or fours weeks of the year plus the odd weekend. In theory, others could use the boat constantly for their 3 months. Whilst I don't want to create excessive 'rules', do you think it would be acceptable to include a 'Fair Usage Policy' in the syndicate agreement? Would 75 hours each be reasonable?

Pete

 

[Whitelighter]

If you gave three months use, I'd assume just that. Otherwise it's not really 3 months use
That said, I think two people owning 1 share is no tone I'd go for.

I would suggest leading the boat to friends for example without the owner there shouldn't be allowed

 

[BruceK]

I have no experience in these things but have been a member of enough committees to know that the minutiae of complex agreements leads to nothing but ill will. If you break it up to 3 months each and one person uses 3 months at anchor putting on 2 hours there and back has he enjoyed the boat less than the chap who has just circumnavigated the med? I tend to think you need to go into these things like a marriage. If you have the right partners then you dont mind sharing the wealth and burden without having long winded anti nuptial contracts. If you have to contain the partners with long winded contracts then you haven't chosen the right partners.

 

[MapisM]

If you have the right partners then you dont mind sharing the wealth and burden without having long winded anti nuptial contracts. If you have to contain the partners with long winded contracts then you haven't chosen the right partners.

A very appropriate comparison indeed.
I would dare adding that finding good boating partners can be even harder than good spouses...

 

[Tranona]

Suggest you read the RYA stuff on shared ownership. Goes through the pros and cons and title issues and has a suggested partnership agreement.

There is no fixed way of sharing ownership and usage, you have to agree with the partners who does what and how you share the time. You ought then to have the principles in an agreement together with what happens if one member wants to leave. Such things as having a boat account and a mechanism for agreeing large expenditure as opposed to routine costs is also useful. Successful syndicates re those where these sorts of things are agreed in advance and then the details of operation are decided by regular meetings. For example beginning and end of season meetings to decide such things as renewals/replacements and cruising plans for the coming season.

The most important thing is to get compatible/complementary partners and have an agreement that is straightforward and fair to all parties.

 

[petem]

Thanks all. I'm familiar with the RYA agreement (http://www.rya.org.uk/sitecollectio...ENT FOR THE SYNDICATE OWNERSHIP OF A BOAT.pdf) but this is silent on the allocation of use. I do agree that it's all about finding the right people and not swamping the thing with rules.

 

[Portofino]

Despite predictions to the contrary, I've had a good response to my ads for people to share a Phantom 40 with me. So much so, that I'm now considering a reserve list.

One gentleman has said that he's like to have a share with his brother so that each of them could use the boat. Do you think this is fair or should they be buying two shares?

Also, with such a small number of sharers, there could be an imbalance of use. For example, from my allowance of 3 months use, I may only use the boat for three or fours weeks of the year plus the odd weekend. In theory, others could use the boat constantly for their 3 months. Whilst I don't want to create excessive 'rules', do you think it would be acceptable to include a 'Fair Usage Policy' in the syndicate agreement? Would 75 hours each be reasonable?

Pete

I have been following this and your other recent "med boat " thread prior to this sharing idea .
Like others ( I suspect ) even with something official -RYA advise sheet - its seems to me fraught with cons ,more cons than the pros of reduced , or at least the perceived advantage of reduced costs .
Basically for 3-4 weeks + odd W/E - you may be better off chartering and sharing that € bill with one or two others couples .
Or entering into a vacancy of an allready running syndicate .
This way presumably you can "date " the others , sound them out check out the boat / marina / €€€ annual costs -ie let another experianced 8ugger be the Captain .
If its part way through ie you enter at year 3 ofa 5-6 y contract ( sell up and disperse €€ date ) then
A- you get 2-3 y of shared boating for little organisation
B- you have an end date .
C- you now know if you want to continue -with them or set one up yourself .
D- you might not like it
E- increase your resolve and be able to review the whole ownership issue with a view to spending more than 4 weeks !

I just returned from 2 weeks been out every day but one ,done 14 hrs - doesn't sound a lot but feel boated out
Longest stint was 2 1/2 hrs @ 30 knots .
Normally before retirement did 8 weeks + 1 week maintenance . Approx 90 hrs last season
Your figure of 75 hrs seems ample to me .

But as others have said really needs 3 like minded in all sences to work , with minimal paperwork because ---
I think over regulation / contractual clauses = increase likely hood of a row and bad feeling if peeps start reffering to it .
Like e -mail of waving it about in a bar etc over a pint .

 

[superheat6k]

Who will want the 3 months from December to February ? Better to put up the boat is say 2 weekly chunks and in the med perhaps timed to fit with the most economical flights.

Strict rules about how the boat is left, and how the maintenance and repairs are tackled. Nothing worse than looking forward to your fortnight to find the boat left like a tip and with defects not notified.

I certainly wouldn't entertain one share between two owners - all have to pay their fare split. When many years ago I was in a small syndicate of three I ran the boat very tight (as I do for all my boats since), kept a simple account, and allowed the others to select there preferred usage, as effectively by my location I had the lions share of the boats usage.

However, the arrangement only lasted about 18 months when we decided to end the arrangement - I needed out and the others were simply not using it enough. But remain good friends with those I was syndicated with.

Do not overlook the rules of selling a share - the owners left with ownership after someone leaves need to ensure a new entry is suitable, and this could annoy a frustrated would be leaver / seller.

Personally despite seeing all the bills at say 25% for a four share boat, it wouldn't work for me now.

 

[petem]

I have been following this and your other recent "med boat " thread prior to this sharing idea .
Like others ( I suspect ) even with something official -RYA advise sheet - its seems to me fraught with cons ,more cons than the pros of reduced , or at least the perceived advantage of reduced costs .
Basically for 3-4 weeks + odd W/E - you may be better off chartering and sharing that € bill with one or two others couples .
Or entering into a vacancy of an allready running syndicate .
This way presumably you can "date " the others , sound them out check out the boat / marina / €€€ annual costs -ie let another experianced 8ugger be the Captain .
If its part way through ie you enter at year 3 ofa 5-6 y contract ( sell up and disperse €€ date ) then
A- you get 2-3 y of shared boating for little organisation
B- you have an end date .
C- you now know if you want to continue -with them or set one up yourself .
D- you might not like it
E- increase your resolve and be able to review the whole ownership issue with a view to spending more than 4 weeks !

I just returned from 2 weeks been out every day but one ,done 14 hrs - doesn't sound a lot but feel boated out
Longest stint was 2 1/2 hrs @ 30 knots .
Normally before retirement did 8 weeks + 1 week maintenance . Approx 90 hrs last season
Your figure of 75 hrs seems ample to me .

But as others have said really needs 3 like minded in all sences to work , with minimal paperwork because ---
I think over regulation / contractual clauses = increase likely hood of a row and bad feeling if peeps start reffering to it .
Like e -mail of waving it about in a bar etc over a pint .

A, thanks, unfortunately there are no suitable syndicates that I could join as they're all for bigger / older boats. Chartering doesn't appeal much to me as I'd be missing out on the 'fun' of owning the thing (as masochistic as that might sound).

 

[petem]

Who will want the 3 months from December to February ? Better to put up the boat is say 2 weekly chunks and in the med perhaps timed to fit with the most economical flights.

That would be the plan, divvy up the use into fortnightly chunks.

Strict rules about how the boat is left, and how the maintenance and repairs are tackled. Nothing worse than looking forward to your fortnight to find the boat left like a tip and with defects not notified.

I certainly wouldn't entertain one share between two owners - all have to pay their fare split.

Thanks, that's you and Jez of the same opinion.

When many years ago I was in a small syndicate of three I ran the boat very tight (as I do for all my boats since), kept a simple account, and allowed the others to select there preferred usage, as effectively by my location I had the lions share of the boats usage.

However, the arrangement only lasted about 18 months when we decided to end the arrangement - I needed out and the others were simply not using it enough. But remain good friends with those I was syndicated with.

Do not overlook the rules of selling a share - the owners left with ownership after someone leaves need to ensure a new entry is suitable, and this could annoy a frustrated would be leaver / seller.

The syndicate agreement will cover this, but its a fine balance.

Personally despite seeing all the bills at say 25% for a four share boat, it wouldn't work for me now.

Well it's a case of beggars can't be choosers. At the moment I can't afford the boat that I want in the location that I want on my own so sharing makes sense. I'm pretty easy going about such things (within reason) so think it should work.

 

[Tranona]

Thanks all. I'm familiar with the RYA agreement (http://www.rya.org.uk/sitecollectio...ENT FOR THE SYNDICATE OWNERSHIP OF A BOAT.pdf) but this is silent on the allocation of use. I do agree that it's all about finding the right people and not swamping the thing with rules.

It is silent on that as it is a model agreement and allocation of time and sharing of costs and work are specific to the individual syndicate. You have to determine amongst members what will work for you which may be very different from others. In principle the "shares" should reflect the proportion of ownership, but there are different ways in which the share can be arrived at. For example if one member is retired and the other working with children, the former might be happy to have use in the week and out of school holidays.

Much easier to organise if the boat is elsewhere, for example in the Med as 2 week chunks make sense, and as the weather is more predictable you get better and consistent use out of the period. If you are going the Med route it may pay to have a management service to prepare the boat as there is nothing worse than arriving for your holiday and having to spend 2 or 3 days sorting the boat.

 

[Nick_H]

Chartering doesn't appeal much to me as I'd be missing out on the 'fun' of owning the thing (as masochistic as that might sound).

I've found in the med that the fun of using the boat has skyrocketed, whilst the fun of owning it has crashed!

If we only did 4 weeks, and I could find a bareboat at the size I wanted, then i'd charter.

 

[petem]

I've found in the med that the fun of using the boat has skyrocketed, whilst the fun of owning it has crashed!

If we only did 4 weeks, and I could find a bareboat at the size I wanted, then i'd charter.

But the bareboat coat for a 40ft flybridge has got to be €5000+ a week surely so massively more than I expect to spend.

 

[Whitelighter]

But the bareboat coat for a 40ft flybridge has got to be €5000+ a week surely so massively more than I expect to spend.

I think probably at least that, though probably closer to €10k.

 

[Murphys_Law]

HI, you might like to consider fuel flow meters, sailtime used this model and a charge per litre enabled the servicing etc to be proportioned ie the more hours used the more cash you put in??

 

[petem]

HI, you might like to consider fuel flow meters, sailtime used this model and a charge per litre enabled the servicing etc to be proportioned ie the more hours used the more cash you put in??

I think that's far too draconian for a boat but it's how Plane syndicates work AFAIK.

 

[KevB]

Personally I couldn't be in a syndicate. Too many things to pi$$ me off and ruin what is supposed to be a fun pass time. I can imagine travelling for hours to get to the boat ready to relax only to find the previous user has left it/something not how I expect. Firstly you have to deal with whatever it is then decide how you're going to broach the subject with the syndicate. Every time I'd be off to use the boat I'd be apprehensive as to what I was going to find.

Then when you're packing up to leave, I'd be anal about how I left it, not wanting to put anyone else in the position I was in.

Nah, can't imagine it's ever worth it unless you can afford within the syndicate to pay someone to come in after every use and put the boat back to an agreed standard.

 

[petem]

Personally I couldn't be in a syndicate. Too many things to pi$$ me off and ruin what is supposed to be a fun pass time. I can imagine travelling for hours to get to the boat ready to relax only to find the previous user has left it/something not how I expect. Firstly you have to deal with whatever it is then decide how you're going to broach the subject with the syndicate. Every time I'd be off to use the boat I'd be apprehensive as to what I was going to find.

Then when you're packing up to leave, I'd be anal about how I left it, not wanting to put anyone else in the position I was in.

Nah, can't imagine it's ever worth it unless you can afford within the syndicate to pay someone to come in after every use and put the boat back to an agreed standard.

Well it's certainly not for everyone but I don't believe issues like the ones you highlight can't be overcome. I'm still going to give it a try, nothing ventured, nothing gained and all that.

 

[benjenbav]

I have no experience in these things but have been a member of enough committees to know that the minutiae of complex agreements leads to nothing but ill will. If you break it up to 3 months each and one person uses 3 months at anchor putting on 2 hours there and back has he enjoyed the boat less than the chap who has just circumnavigated the med? I tend to think you need to go into these things like a marriage. If you have the right partners then you dont mind sharing the wealth and burden without having long winded anti nuptial contracts. If you have to contain the partners with long winded contracts then you haven't chosen the right partners.

After 20 years of it they'll almost be part of the family...

 

[benjenbav]

Well it's certainly not for everyone but I don't believe issues like the ones you highlight can't be overcome. I'm still going to give it a try, nothing ventured, nothing gained and all that.

One thing which I think would help smooth over some of the very real points KevB raises would be to employ a guardiennege service to be used between each period of use.

That would ensure that everyone arrived to find the boat in a uniform standard and much more important than even that, each new arrival would not spend the first few days of use thinking darkly either that the last sharer was a slut or an OCD sufferer.