Boat share ? Is anyone in a syndicate or is it frowned upon.

[Muxey]

As the title says, so many boats doing nothing , and if I buy one mine will probably
Do the same, it seems to work well with light aircraft ?
So why he apparent reluctance with boats? something I would consider, or am I missing something?

 

[julians]

@petem

He owns a boat in a syndicate - I think it can work well if all owners are likeminded.

 

[petem]

There are people who own boats as part of a syndicate.

As Julian says, find like minded people to share it with. Personally, I'd not want to be in a syndicate of more than three people.

If you have any question, I'm happy to share my experience.

 

[Soco2]

I personally wouldn’t do it again unless money was the issue.
not being able to leave and use the boat as I wanted was a big turn off for me.
simple things like leaving your bedding and food, toiletries etc (you can’t just leave them out for your next trip if someone else is going to use the boat) thats before even thinking of usage allocation.
I suppose if you were really good mates it may not matter as much and you would all regularly go out together etc but I’m not sure that is generally the “Norm”
GA is quite different really and syndicates work well in that respect, all you need is your own headset and you would often fly with another member.
boating is a lot more family centric.

 

[petem]

If money is no object and you don't want to be inconvenienced at all then it's not for you.

We have a simple policy where we always leave some tea, coffee, beers, wine, crisps and nuts for the next person due on board. And I have a lady who strips the beds, washes the linen and remakes them for €30.

 

[GravyStain]

There are a fair few boats on yacht-share.net where a part of the cost is used for total swapouts of personal items between owners, right down to bedding / monikered cushions, bottles of Whitley Neil etc... So that whenever you arrive at the boat it is essentially 'yours' with your stuff on board. I had a long chat with one of the owners of a syndicate with a few boats in it, and he explained it in detail. It's not cheap , but it is (obviously) much cheaper than owning a boat outright.

I would echo @petem , any more than 3 to 4 owners and it will get messy, plus you'll rarely get all the times that you want throughout the year...

 

[BruceK]

For something like the Med on extended holidays sure, for something local you use on weekends, not so much.

 

[Hooligan]

Without trying to be un PC, and probably being just that, I would have thought the biggest obstacle would be SWMBOs. I shudder to think of the discussions around soft furnishings etc.......now time to run for the hills.....

 

[Muxey]

Thanks for the replys, I was thinking more a 50/50 Sort of share and it's less about money jus trying to be sensible but the soft furnshing remarkrealy made me think,
Just finding the right partner.

 

[BruceK]

Without trying to be un PC, and probably being just that, I would have thought the biggest obstacle would be SWMBOs. I shudder to think of the discussions around soft furnishings etc.......now time to run for the hills.....

Just wait till they agree, form a cohesive voting block and take over leaving you to hold the wallet while they plunder it's booty.

 

[BruceK]

Thanks for the replys, I was thinking more a 50/50 Sort of share and it's less about money jus trying to be sensible but the soft furnshing remarkrealy made me think,
Just finding the right partner.

50/50 could create an impasse when there is disagreement however civil. Reminds me of a really good mate and his bride considering names for their expectant newborn son. He wanted simple like John and she wanted something more biblical like Moses. Eventually it was settled over a game of Backgammon which he won and she never ever ever forgave him or let him forget.

 

[petem]

Thanks for the replys, I was thinking more a 50/50 Sort of share and it's less about money jus trying to be sensible but the soft furnshing remarkrealy made me think,
Just finding the right partner.

Boats should look as similar to when they left the builders as possible (with the addition of some carefully selected scatter cushions if required).

If your wife wants to fill it full of tat then it's time to find a new wife .

 

[TwoHooter]

I recollect this was discussed before but I can't find the thread.

The subject interests me because I can see the day might come when I would like someone else to share the maintenance burden of our boat. But a lot of motorboats are 50% boat and 50% second home - that's what ours is - so the potential for disagreement between different owners is much greater, and the sense of it being one's own second home isn't there if it's shared and one's own things have to be removed at the end of each booking. On the other hand shared ownership works to some extent in the Timeshare property world, provided it's not one of the rackets.

GA is quite different really and syndicates work well in that respect, all you need is your own headset and you would often fly with another member.
boating is a lot more family centric.

I echo that comment.

Just finding the right partner.

For aircraft groups it's not very difficult. Pilot magazine has (had?) a small ads column specifically for groups and there is a groups section on AFORS: All of the Aircraft for sale on afors, Shares & Groups with ads approximately old, page 1 of 50
In my day, when a member of a group wanted to leave it was usual for the group leader/chair/secretary to agree the price of their share, then advertise it, weed out obviously unsuitable applicants, then convene a meeting after which any member could blackball the applicant, and finally there was a check ride which could be delegated to an instructor. Some groups insisted that the payment for the share would pass through the group's account with a small admin charge which went towards the engine fund.
The most successful groups were those which (a) had built up cash reserves, and (b) took great care about who was allowed to join and weren't shy about refusing applicants who didn't match the dynamic of the group. I remember in one group we rejected an hours builder because we thought he would monopolise the plane in good weather. The ideal group would have some people in employment, others self-employed, and perhaps a retiree, so that demand for the aircraft was spread as evenly as possible.
A boat group would perhaps be similar but with care taken to vet the new member's family.

If you have any question, I'm happy to share my experience.

OK Pete, here we go:

1. Deleted - already answered by Petem
2. Do you have a written agreement between the members, if so was it DIY, or a standard format (do the RYA still do one?), or done by a lawyer?
3. Do you think boat-owning syndicates could work with unequal shares or do you think everyone needs to own an equal share in the equity? I think I'm right in saying that everyone must own some equity otherwise it becomes a hire and the boat has to be coded and the insurance goes up.
4. Have you run into any tax problems?
5. With aircraft there is typically a monthly charge to cover known fixed costs, and an hourly charge which includes a contribution to an engine replacement/rebuild fund. Fuel can be dealt with in 2 or 3 different ways. How do you handle money?
6. Do you aim to cover the cost of hull depreciation by building up a sinking fund with the aim of renewing the boat eventually or does everyone accept that in normal times the value of their equity stake will gradually reduce?
7. Do you employ engineers to do all servicing and repairs or is there an element of DIY? If a group member spends a day changing filters do they get a discount on their next month's charge?
8. Does the boat have its own credit card like an aircraft or do group members make payments and recover from the group bank account?
9. Do you employ an independent person to keep the accounts and make sure the money doesn't go walkabout?

Sorry if that's too many questions, please feel free to pick and choose.

 

[petem]

Answers below....

1. Answered
2. Do you have a written agreement between the members, if so was it DIY, or a standard format (do the RYA still do one?), or done by a lawyer? [PM - We have a syndicate agreement. I use one that JFM wrote a few years ago. The RYA do have one.]
3. Do you think boat-owning syndicates could work with unequal shares or do you think everyone needs to own an equal share in the equity? I think I'm right in saying that everyone must own some equity otherwise it becomes a hire and the boat has to be coded and the insurance goes up. [PM - I guess it would be charter if the person didn't own a share. Unequal shares can work where there's lots of people in a syndicate but less so IMO for small syndicates.]
4. Have you run into any tax problems? [PM - No and I can't see why there would be any.]
5. With aircraft there is typically a monthly charge to cover known fixed costs, and an hourly charge which includes a contribution to an engine replacement/rebuild fund. Fuel can be dealt with in 2 or 3 different ways. How do you handle money? [PM - We have a joint bank account for all of the maintenance costs. People pay their own fuel and for turning the boat around. Each member is limited to say 75 hours of engine use per annum but to be honest none of us have got even close to that figure. It's important to find people who have similar usage demands on the boat. It might create issues I think if one person was to use the boat for every day of his entitlement (and putting loads of hours on it) and when there are other owners who might only use it for a week per year.]
6. Do you aim to cover the cost of hull depreciation by building up a sinking fund with the aim of renewing the boat eventually or does everyone accept that in normal times the value of their equity stake will gradually reduce? [PM - The values of our shares have increased with the increase in the value of the boat! But they could equally decrease. I can't see the logic in having a depreciation fund.]
7. Do you employ engineers to do all servicing and repairs or is there an element of DIY? If a group member spends a day changing filters do they get a discount on their next month's charge? [PM - We employ professionals to work on the boat but of course we'll all make simple repairs if required.]
8. Does the boat have its own credit card like an aircraft or do group members make payments and recover from the group bank account? [PM - They make their own payments and recover money from the joint bank account.]
9. Do you employ an independent person to keep the accounts and make sure the money doesn't go walkabout? [PM - No, I look after the boat and the accounts. To be honest there's rarely more than a few £ thousand in the kitty. Obviously, any of the joint owners are welcome to have access to the bank account to check the funds are there. I also maintain a forecast of the costs.]

 

[TwoHooter]

Answers below....

Thanks. Very interesting. Yet another reason to regret the departure of JFM.

Do you work off the fuel gauge to apportion fuel costs? Or do people add what they think they are going to use and if they leave the boat with less than when they arrived, or with more in the tank than they started with, it's just ignored?

 

[thejonesey]

Can I just add that I bought into Petem’s boat having been convinced by all the threads about boating on the Med. We bought our share in Feb 19 (yes we have not yet actually been to the boat!) but we couldn’t be happier with the way everything runs. A key factor is to find likeminded owners and have a clear system that everyone agrees.. and in my case a lovely guy who takes care of everything too!
We are looking forward to turning up and everything being ready and then leaving the boat for someone else to strip the beds! ? Very luxurious!

 

[TwoHooter]

Can I just add that I bought into Petem’s boat having been convinced by all the threads about boating on the Med. We bought our share in Feb 19 (yes we have not yet actually been to the boat!) but we couldn’t be happier with the way everything runs. A key factor is to find likeminded owners and have a clear system that everyone agrees.. and in my case a lovely guy who takes care of everything too!
We are looking forward to turning up and everything being ready and then leaving the boat for someone else to strip the beds! ? Very luxurious!

I'm sorry you haven't been to the boat yet. Kudos to you for a positive post instead of moaning about the situation!

I'm seeing two lessons in your comment.
First, your shared ownership arrangement is run very professionally, not in an ad hoc amateurish way.
Second, for a boat group to work it's important that the members aren't skinflints.
People might join a group because they don't want to shoulder the entire financial burden of boat ownership.
But if all they want to do is pare costs to the bone it probably won't work.
It is like that with flying groups.
As I said above, the flying groups which are successful tend to be those which build up a surplus in the engine fund.
I have heard about other flying groups where the members keep wanting to save money, and eventually they run out and the group folds, usually acrimoniously.
If I was going to assemble a group to take over the running of our boat I would look for people who aren't skinflints and want to share ownership for more reasons than just saving money.
At the moment my wife and I have no desire to share Coracle with anyone.
But when the time comes that the boat is too much for us to handle alone I still won't want to sell.
I will more likely look for others to share her with (the boat, that is, not my wife).

 

[petem]

Thanks. Very interesting. Yet another reason to regret the departure of JFM.

Do you work off the fuel gauge to apportion fuel costs? Or do people add what they think they are going to use and if they leave the boat with less than when they arrived, or with more in the tank than they started with, it's just ignored?

The rule is that people should fill the tanks when they leave the boat. If course, that's not always possible so on occasion my partner has just asked me to guess how much he's used (if he's only been pottering about) when I next fill up and he sends me the cash.

JFM just used to calculate it based on hours run as he wasn't keen on filling up at the end of a cruise.

 

[petem]

Can I just add that I bought into Petem’s boat having been convinced by all the threads about boating on the Med. We bought our share in Feb 19 (yes we have not yet actually been to the boat!) but we couldn’t be happier with the way everything runs. A key factor is to find likeminded owners and have a clear system that everyone agrees.. and in my case a lovely guy who takes care of everything too!
We are looking forward to turning up and everything being ready and then leaving the boat for someone else to strip the beds! ? Very luxurious!

I must say that so far you've been the perfect partner (not used the boat and paid all bills without complaint) !

 

[petem]

I'm sorry you haven't been to the boat yet. Kudos to you for a positive post instead of moaning about the situation!

I'm seeing two lessons in your comment.
First, your shared ownership arrangement is run very professionally, not in an ad hoc amateurish way.
Second, for a boat group to work it's important that the members aren't skinflints.
People might join a group because they don't want to shoulder the entire financial burden of boat ownership.
But if all they want to do is pare costs to the bone it probably won't work.
It is like that with flying groups.
As I said above, the flying groups which are successful tend to be those which build up a surplus in the engine fund.
I have heard about other flying groups where the members keep wanting to save money, and eventually they run out and the group folds, usually acrimoniously.
If I was going to assemble a group to take over the running of our boat I would look for people who aren't skinflints and want to share ownership for more reasons than just saving money.
At the moment my wife and I have no desire to share Coracle with anyone.
But when the time comes that the boat is too much for us to handle alone I still won't want to sell.
I will more likely look for others to share her with (the boat, that is, not my wife).

I wouldn't say that the boat is run regardless of cost. For example, we didn't have a full engine service this year as we'd only run perhaps 5 hours since the last service. We used the money that we'd save on some preventative maintenance to the drives instead. Whatever I propose I make sure that everyone (or at least the majority) are in agreement.

It's also worth ensuring that everyone has the same mindset regarding upgrades. It's going to cause arguments if someone wants all of the latest nav gear and someone else is happy with basic kit and doesn't want to pay something towards upgrades.