Boat registration and international travel

[SteveSch]

Hi
I have made a recent purchase of a boat registered with a French flag (5 weeks go).
The process of "de-listing / de-registering" the boat is taking very long with the French legal system.

My question is about "crossing boarders" while not having the official registration documents in my name.

Is it acceptable to arrive at a new port, say Italy to Montenegro with only the previous owners papers and the proof of purchase?

Your advise would be appreciated

 

[Tranona]

You are correct. The boat must be registered to show its "nationality" which in most cases is the nationality of the owner, although it does not need to be as many registers are open to non citizens and non residents. Boats cannot in theory be on 2 registers at the same time hence the need to de-register when it changes ownership. However the registration can be transferred if the new owner is eligible for that registry. Also some registries such as the UK allow temporary overlaps while the deregistration takes place.

These are some of the principles, but to offer advice one needs to know what nationality you are and what register you intend using. The answer to your last question is, yes, it is unacceptable under International Maritime Law to enter another state without evidence of the nationality (also called Flag State) of the boat.

 

[SteveSch]

You are correct. The boat must be registered to show its "nationality" which in most cases is the nationality of the owner, although it does not need to be as many registers are open to non citizens and non residents. Boats cannot in theory be on 2 registers at the same time hence the need to de-register when it changes ownership. However the registration can be transferred if the new owner is eligible for that registry. Also some registries such as the UK allow temporary overlaps while the deregistration takes place.

These are some of the principles, but to offer advice one needs to know what nationality you are and what register you intend using. The answer to your last question is, yes, it is unacceptable under International Maritime Law to enter another state without evidence of the nationality (also called Flag State) of the boat.

Hello Tranona - thanks for the reply.
The details are...
I am a UK citizen
Boat is currently French flagged (currently being deregistered) - and berthed in France
I will register to San Marino (to maintain the boats EU VAT status) once she is de-registered from the French flag.
The plan is to move the boat, by sea, from France, around Italy (with many over night stops) and then crossing the Adriatic to Albania / Montenegro.

The voyage is due to start in 2 weeks, hence my concern that the French deregistration may not be complete.

So, could I still travel and make the journey? (from what you say - yes, it is possible)

If you have other feedback or comment, please let me know.

Thanks

 

[Koeketiene]

Hi
I have made a recent purchase of a boat registered with a French flag (5 weeks go).
The process of "de-listing / de-registering" the boat is taking very long with the French legal system.

My question is about "crossing boarders" while not having the official registration documents in my name.

Is it acceptable to arrive at a new port, say Italy to Montenegro with only the previous owners papers and the proof of purchase?

Your advise would be appreciated

Usually de-registering a yacht upon sale is the responsability of the seller.

This can be completed on-line: Accueil | Portail demarches-plaisance.gouv.fr

I recently did this for a mooring neighbour who's not all that computer savvy.
He received written confirmation 4 days after I completed the simple on-line procedure.

Alternatively, there's a pdf file you can mail in: http://www.rif.mer.developpement-durable.gouv.fr/IMG/pdf/cerfa_15802-01.pdf

Takes a bit longer (2-3 weeks).

 

[SteveSch]

Usually de-registering a yacht upon sale is the responsability of the seller.

This can be completed on-line: Accueil | Portail demarches-plaisance.gouv.fr

I recently did this for a mooring neighbour who's not all that computer savvy.
He received written confirmation 4 days after I completed the simple on-line procedure.

Alternatively, there's a pdf file you can mail in: http://www.rif.mer.developpement-durable.gouv.fr/IMG/pdf/cerfa_15802-01.pdf

Takes a bit longer (2-3 weeks).

Hi and thanks for the reply.
The seller (actually the sellers broker) applied for the de-registration 4 weeks ago. Currently nothing in reply from the French legals. They tell me the process can take many weeks, which it certainly is!

I don't want to delay the trip. Therefore, if the de-registration and new registration is not complete, can I still travel and will the port authorities accept the "incomplete papers"?

Thanks

 

[Tranona]

The Vat status is nothing to do with the registration of the boat but to either where the VAT was paid (in the EU or the UK) and where it was on 31/12 2020. If you are buying a French registered boat VAT will almost certainly have been paid in France and the boat in the EU on the date. That does not change unless the boat spends significant time (nominally 3 years+) outside the EU, independent of where it is registered. VAT is an EU competence, registration is not, but carried out by each individual state, therefore the 2 are not connected.

As a UK citizen you can register on the UK register, preferably Part 1 as this gives confirmation of your title to the boat based on the documentary proof that will come from the seller. However this has a cost partly because you will need a survey according to the MCA rules Total cost in the region of £600 including the survey. This is the "gold standard" of the registration world and accepted everywhere. Alternatively if you qualify by residence in the UK you can use the Part 3 register known as the SSR. This is simpler, can be done on line, cheap and does not require a survey but does not register title. It is acceptable by other states and many UK cruisers use it. The other alternative is to register on a third party register some of which have very open requirements. On the other hand they may have varying acceptability.

The ideal for a UK citizen is UK Part 1 as most widely accepted and valuable when you come to sell as it is proof of your ownership. MCA (the UK registry) will also allow temporary registration while you are waiting for deregistration. Suggest you speak to them +44 02920448800

Finally do not run the risk of travelling without papers, particularly to those countries you mention as they are sticklers for having everything right and local officials have wide powers including detaining your boat. Could spoil your day!

 

[SteveSch]

The Vat status is nothing to do with the registration of the boat but to either where the VAT was paid (in the EU or the UK) and where it was on 31/12 2020. If you are buying a French registered boat VAT will almost certainly have been paid in France and the boat in the EU on the date. That does not change unless the boat spends significant time (nominally 3 years+) outside the EU, independent of where it is registered. VAT is an EU competence, registration is not, but carried out by each individual state, therefore the 2 are not connected.

As a UK citizen you can register on the UK register, preferably Part 1 as this gives confirmation of your title to the boat based on the documentary proof that will come from the seller. However this has a cost partly because you will need a survey according to the MCA rules Total cost in the region of £600 including the survey. This is the "gold standard" of the registration world and accepted everywhere. Alternatively if you qualify by residence in the UK you can use the Part 3 register known as the SSR. This is simpler, can be done on line, cheap and does not require a survey but does not register title. It is acceptable by other states and many UK cruisers use it. The other alternative is to register on a third party register some of which have very open requirements. On the other hand they may have varying acceptability.

The ideal for a UK citizen is UK Part 1 as most widely accepted and valuable when you come to sell as it is proof of your ownership. MCA (the UK registry) will also allow temporary registration while you are waiting for deregistration. Suggest you speak to them +44 02920448800

Finally do not run the risk of travelling without papers, particularly to those countries you mention as they are sticklers for having everything right and local officials have wide powers including detaining your boat. Could spoil your day!

So... to travel or not to travel - that is the question...?
France >> Italy >> Montenegro?
French papers registered to the seller (previous owner) with my Proof of Purchase.

Thanks

 

[LittleSister]

I think it is not at all unusual for the 'captain' of the vessel not to be the (registered) owner. If you were able to show the French registration document, together with a letter from the 'registered owner' (i.e. actually the previous owner) saying you had his/her permission to sail the vessel, I would imagine (but don't know for absolute certain) that would suffice.

There would also be complications to resolve, such as you, rather than the apparent owner, being named as owner on the insurance documents, and you would need to be sure to be notified immediately when the French registration is cancelled and in a position to then register, also immediately, on e.g. the UK SSR, to avoid being in limbo on an unregisterd vessel.

 

[Koeketiene]

Hi and thanks for the reply.
The seller (actually the sellers broker) applied for the de-registration 4 weeks ago. Currently nothing in reply from the French legals. They tell me the process can take many weeks, which it certainly is!

I don't want to delay the trip. Therefore, if the de-registration and new registration is not complete, can I still travel and will the port authorities accept the "incomplete papers"?

Thanks

I would be extremely reluctant to set off without up-to-date boat registration papers.
You mentioned you wanted to register the boat in San Marino - do authorities there require proof of French de-registration? If not, I would get the ball roling asap.

Would you drive a car without registration plates?
Let alone across borders.

Another thing: insurers require a copy of the ships registration.
How will you obtain insurance without registration papers?
Marinas are not keen on boats without insurance.

Do you really want to risk getting stuck somewhere (this can turn out to be expensive and inconvenient) because of incomplete paperwork?

I would get back to the broker and light a fuse under the proverbial backside.
Of course, if you've already paid in full your leverage might be minimal.

 

[westernman]

I don't want to delay the trip. Therefore, if the de-registration and new registration is not complete, can I still travel and will the port authorities accept the "incomplete papers"?

Thanks

I would not risk it.

I would far prefer to register on the SSR with a small white lie (and small risk) as to whether the boat is on any other registry.
You could argue that is it not as all the paper work has been sent in a long time a go to deregister it.

 

[Buck Turgidson]

So... to travel or not to travel - that is the question...?
France >> Italy >> Montenegro?
French papers registered to the seller (previous owner) with my Proof of Purchase.

Thanks

Not legally.

 

[SteveSch]

: o (

 

[Graham376]

I don't want to delay the trip. Therefore, if the de-registration and new registration is not complete, can I still travel and will the port authorities accept the "incomplete papers"?

As well as passports and insurance, marinas want to see registration and so do police and customs if you're pulled. Not having correct documents could lead to the boat being impounded and you fined.

 

[greeny]

Who knows she is on the French registration? Not San Marino I think. Just apply and register her in San Marino. If they insist on proof of deregistration from previous registry then you won't get further.
So:-
Apply and put her on SSR in your name on the basis that she has been de registered in France by the ex owner some "months" ago. They didn't ask for any proof of deregistration from me when I did my new boat last month. Sail on SSR until French deregistration paperwork comes through. Then go onto San Marino or other at a later date once you have the French paperwork in order.
SSR is very quick and will give you what you need to go sailing on your dates. In my experience the authorities just want to see a valid registration document and then they're happy. Old document with letter from ex owners will only complicate things and they may well require the documents notarising etc etc. Keep it simple for them is best in my experience.
p.s. why not keep it SSR, it makes no difference to vat status as I understand things.

 

[Koeketiene]

The Vat status is nothing to do with the registration of the boat but to either where the VAT was paid (in the EU or the UK) and where it was on 31/12 2020. If you are buying a French registered boat VAT will almost certainly have been paid in France and the boat in the EU on the date. That does not change unless the boat spends significant time (nominally 3 years+) outside the EU, independent of where it is registered. VAT is an EU competence, registration is not, but carried out by each individual state, therefore the 2 are not connected.

A rather sweeping statement.
In some countries (France, Belgium, ...) registration and VAT status ARE connected.
In those countries (there may be others) it's impossible to register a yacht (as a private individual) without providing proof of the VAT paid status.
I had to jump through all the hoops 2 years ago.

 

[Koeketiene]

Who knows she is on the French registration? Not San Marino I think. Just apply and register her in San Marino. If they insist on proof of deregistration from previous registry then you won't get further.
So:-
Apply and put her on SSR in your name on the basis that she has been de registered in France by the ex owner some "months" ago. They didn't ask for any proof of deregistration from me when I did my new boat last month. Sail on SSR until French deregistration paperwork comes through. Then go onto San Marino or other at a later date once you have the French paperwork in order.
SSR is very quick and will give you what you need to go sailing on your dates. In my experience the authorities just want to see a valid registration document and then they're happy. Old document with letter from ex owners will only complicate things and they may well require the documents notarising etc etc. Keep it simple for them is best in my experience.
p.s. why not keep it SSR, it makes no difference to vat status as I understand things.

Putting the boat on SSR (even briefly), will constitute an export from the EU.

If the same owner brings the yacht back into the EU within 3 years he could retain the VAT paid status but might not be exempt custom duties.


The VAT problem: top tips for yacht buyers and owners

If I were in the OPs position, I would want to do things properly and once French de-registration has been received, register the boat in the country of your choice.

 

[Tranona]

A rather sweeping statement.
In some countries (France, Belgium, ...) registration and VAT status ARE connected.
In those countries (there may be others) it's impossible to register a yacht (as a private individual) without providing proof of the VAT paid status.
I had to jump through all the hoops 2 years ago.

But the connection is at the level of the individual state. VAT status is an EU competence which allows free movement of the boat and is totally independent of any individual state requirements for registration. In fact there is no need for the boat to be registered anywhere to have free movement under EU VAT rules. The requirement to register when going "foreign" is International maritime law - again nothing to do with the EU or VAT.

Registering a boat on the SSR DOES NOT change its VAT status for exactly the same reason. There are thousands of boats in the EU with free movement that are registered outside the EU, probably most of them on "Red Flag" registers including the SSR. The potential loss of free movement (EU VAT status) follows physical exit from the EU and is subject to the Returned Goods Relief rules you refer to. There is nothing new about this as these rules have been in place since 1992!

Your last sentence is correct as most other posters has advised, but again nothing to do with VAT, but to comply with international law. If he chooses British registration it is quite possible that he get this on a temporary basis before deregistration is complete. I did exactly that when I bought a Greek registered boat which took 3 months to complete the paperwork. I registered on the SSR a seen as the Bill of Sale was signed as under Greek law deregistration follows transfer of title.

 

[greeny]

But the connection is at the level of the individual state. VAT status is an EU competence which allows free movement of the boat and is totally independent of any individual state requirements for registration. In fact there is no need for the boat to be registered anywhere to have free movement under EU VAT rules. The requirement to register when going "foreign" is International maritime law - again nothing to do with the EU or VAT.

Registering a boat on the SSR DOES NOT change its VAT status for exactly the same reason. There are thousands of boats in the EU with free movement that are registered outside the EU, probably most of them on "Red Flag" registers including the SSR. The potential loss of free movement (EU VAT status) follows physical exit from the EU and is subject to the Returned Goods Relief rules you refer to. There is nothing new about this as these rules have been in place since 1992!

Your last sentence is correct as most other posters has advised, but again nothing to do with VAT, but to comply with international law. If he chooses British registration it is quite possible that he get this on a temporary basis before deregistration is complete. I did exactly that when I bought a Greek registered boat which took 3 months to complete the paperwork. I registered on the SSR a seen as the Bill of Sale was signed as under Greek law deregistration follows transfer of title.

100% as I understand it. And have experienced it with 4 boat sales and 4 purchases in the EU in the past 20yrs.

 

[Spirit (of Glenans)]

Why not just enjoy the boat where it is while you wait for bureaucracy to take its course and avoid all this wearying angst?

 

[westernman]

Registration on the SSR is the easy way to go.
I don't understand the hesitation to do it this way.