Boat offers

zarathustra said:
That is unfair and offensive and reflects badly on you to be so judgemental. His question is perfectly reasonable. He is looking to buy his FIRST boat at a cost of £140k, how he got his money is none of your business, what makes you assume his money came easy, and anyone looking to purchase their first boat is wise to consult other boat owners for advice, and a yachting forum is as good a place as any to hope for advice about boat from other boat owners.

You may be amazed at what you call "apparent naivety" of someone who amassed enough money to buy a nice boat for himself, but I am never amazed at the arrogance of some individuals who could have chosen to give a helpful reply as opposed to grunting an insult. I also find it a little amusing that you conclude that someone who acquired £140k spare change can't make wise decisions about money!!! Whats unwise about buying a boat if you enjoy boating?
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Oh dear! We are touchy today. I was not responding to the OP - I hope my original reponse was helpful.

I was responding the pvbs specific point. My comments are based on years mis-spent in reading posts on this and other fora. There seem to be many people who don't have a clue, and not just about boats. There is masses of information available on buying and selling boats to help people get going.
 
galadriel said:
In the current used boat climate, there are very few good used boats about, the last 18 month to 2 years when the £ was so weak, most good boats that were on the market went to europe. Only this year my friend sold his Hanse 371 for FULL ASKING PRICE!!! To a chap came all the way from Norway, the boat was sold within a week or 2 of going on the market.

Any good quality well maintained, well kitted boat will sell for a good price, tat, badly prepared, sold under duress boats will be priced too high or be just too tatty, so will sit around for a long time and so may well take an aggressive offer.

IMO the idea that every boat is priced above the real price is wishful thinking, whilst you are wrestling to get the price down, you may well lose a good boat to a buyer a little more willing to realise its a fair price.
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Could not agree more. There is a real shortage of good boats for sale, not surprising given the slow state of the economy.

I posted some figures here a couple of weeks ago comparing advertising in YM in 2006 and now. Display ads by brokers halved and small ads from private sellers 80% or so down. I know some of this is shift to other media, but am sure IPC will admit a real drop.

My view (for what it is worth) is that in this economic climate, most of the distress sales have gone through so less people forced to sell and not enough confidence to buy/move upward. Was told the other day that sales of new boats by one of the volume builders barely made double figures last year, compared with literally hundreds in their heyday. Just think of the effect on the trade in market.
 
Many thanks for all your comments all very usefull and constructive, just to clarify a point I dont have money to burn nor am I naive, what I am is cautious as I have worked hard for the money and dont want to make a mistake, I dont have a problem asking for advice from a bunch of guy`s who have done this all before and possibly made a few mistakes along the way, this forum has a wealth of knowledge that I can use as a recource to make an informed judgement and decision when making my first purchase.

The boat I`m looking at is a second hand Oceanis 43 2-3 years old, the idea being we keep it in the UK for a few years untill I go part time in a few years then take it down to the Ionian.

kind regards

Stewart
 
Useful additional information.

Think you will find there are relatively few of that type of boat on the market for the reasons given in my earlier post. Nearly new boats are often benchmarked against the new price adjusted for the extras - that is many "extras" are not reflected in the price. Given the big increase in new prices, nearly new are likely to be priced near to their original cost.
 
pvb said:
If you read my post again, Jimi, you'll find that "stupid" wasn't a word I used. Don't misinterpret everything you read here.
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you said:

Originally Posted by pvb
"I'm just surprised that someone who apparently has £140K cash burning a hole in his pocket doesn't already have the ability to negotiate a purchase. "

Personally, I don't think I misinterpeted anything! But if I have, then many apologies.


Fair Winds
 
andymcp said:
I guess I have a related question, which is if you were selling your boat, would you commission a survey prior to going on the market including the surveyor's view of value, or would you simply decide what is a fair price in your mind and treat each potential offer on its merits?

I have considered how we might sell our boat if it came to it - and since I don't know what it's worth I would have no idea where to start. Few boats if any when we were looking had surveys done when they went on the market so I was always curious how the asking prices (given the vast spectrum on condition we found a lot of the boats in) were decided.
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Most surveyor's don't have a clue on the value of most boats, they will simply look on the internet at others of the same type/model and give an opinion from there, you can do that yourself.
 
Bradders said:
Many thanks for all your comments all very usefull and constructive, just to clarify a point I dont have money to burn nor am I naive, what I am is cautious as I have worked hard for the money and dont want to make a mistake, I dont have a problem asking for advice from a bunch of guy`s who have done this all before and possibly made a few mistakes along the way, this forum has a wealth of knowledge that I can use as a recource to make an informed judgement and decision when making my first purchase.

The boat I`m looking at is a second hand Oceanis 43 2-3 years old, the idea being we keep it in the UK for a few years untill I go part time in a few years then take it down to the Ionian.

kind regards

Stewart
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If your going abroad have you thought of buying abroad ? There are plenty of boats for sale in Europe. Book Euros in bulk that will save you money as well once you see a yacht you like away you go .
 
Crabman said:
If your going abroad have you thought of buying abroad ? There are plenty of boats for sale in Europe. Book Euros in bulk that will save you money as well once you see a yacht you like away you go .
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That certainly could be a possibility, with the £ now worth 1.22 euro a saving could be made, in fact hang on to the boat 'till the £ slides again, then you can sell it back into Europe and make a profit! Who needs a stock market?!!
 
capsco said:
Most surveyor's don't have a clue on the value of most boats, they will simply look on the internet at others of the same type/model and give an opinion from there, you can do that yourself.
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Thanks, explains a lot of the values we saw being asked at the time. :)
 
Bradders said:
The boat I`m looking at is a second hand Oceanis 43 2-3 years old, the idea being we keep it in the UK for a few years untill I go part time in a few years then take it down to the Ionian.


Stewart
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As you probably know there are two almost identical boats for sale in Scotland, both on offer for exactly your £140k!.

Couple of observations. First, find out who owns them. Could be private, therefore Sunbird and Euroyachts are brokers. Could be repossessions, in which case they are brokers for the bank. Or, possibly owned by the dealers. It is important first because you need to know who is making the decision and what the motivations are. For example if it is the dealer, they won't want to hold it in stock any longer than necessary, and the saleseman is much more likely to do a deal. Having cash means you can back your decision instantly, which may help.

However, I suspect there is little room in the headline price as these dealers know their markets well. What you need to do is maximize what you get for your £140k. The boats still have a warranty of some sort, so they should be sorted. However, they may not have all the goodies you want and if the boat is dealer owned you may have some opportunity to negotiate some deal. Other possibilities are storage over the winter or until you need it. Maybe you don't want the boat in Scotland - moving it to the East Coast and commisioning it wil cost anything up to £5k. Remember the objective is to get the boat as you want it, where you want it at mimimum cost.

Others have mentioned buying a boat in the Med. This is clearly an alternative - depends very much on timescales and your usage pattern, but that is what we did as our usage in UK was less than our potential time in the sun. We bought our boat in a charter management deal, had 9 low cost years in Corfu and brought the boat back to the UK this year. Overall capital cost similar to the current market value here. Thing you miss out on is the trip getting there, and with a charter boat the risk that the boat is trashed although in my experience this risk is way overstated.

Hope this helps
 
andymcp said:
I guess I have a related question, which is if you were selling your boat, would you commission a survey prior to going on the market including the surveyor's view of value, or would you simply decide what is a fair price in your mind and treat each potential offer on its merits?
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No - the buyer should commission his own survey. In any event, most surveyors are not really equipped to attach a realistic current market value to boats. Go with your gut instinct: what do you think she is worth? What price do you need to achieve to make the sale worthwhile? How desperate are you to sell? What are similar boats achieving? A good broker should be able to advise, without requiring any commitment from you to list the boat.
 
Hi Tranona

We too have been offered a management deal probably same as yours, we put 55% up and after 5/6 seasons in the Ionian we just pay the VAT on the value of the boat on handover after the 5 seasons, but was totaly unsure of this as having the boat registered in the managements company name, contract in Greek, with grey areas in the contract regarding condition of boat on handover, so hense looking at buying outright in the UK.
But you say all was well with yours so would you recommend this scheme then ?

Stewart
 
Bradders said:
Hi Tranona

We too have been offered a management deal probably same as yours, we put 55% up and after 5/6 seasons in the Ionian we just pay the VAT on the value of the boat on handover after the 5 seasons, but was totaly unsure of this as having the boat registered in the managements company name, contract in Greek, with grey areas in the contract regarding condition of boat on handover, so hense looking at buying outright in the UK.
But you say all was well with yours so would you recommend this scheme then ?

Stewart
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It worked out very well for us - despite all the complications!. We paid 48%, but know that it has crept up as yields from chartering have fallen. There are schemes now that allow your share to be owned by yourself through a separate company which gives a bit more security, and you can get your interest registered against the boat with the Greek registry so it can't be sold without your approval. Our contract was in English, although with a Greek comapny.

The hand over bit was the worst part of the experience, mainly because it is overseen by the local base manager who has absolutely (in our case anyway) no interest. However, the contract itself was very clear about what came with the boat. The big bits like the 4 season refit and new sails were fine. It was the relatively minor items such as servicing the engine and making sure all the electrics worked that was a pain. However, I had used the boat a few weeks before the handover and made up my list. Still had to spend several days making sure everything was done. The paperwork was very straightforward - VAT is on the original contract price unless you paid for the whole boat upfront in which case it is on 50% of the original cost. The real negative (potentially) is the difficulty in selling the boat at the end, so you have to be pretty sure you want to keep it afterwards.

We actually ended up bringing the boat back to the UK this year for a variety of reasons and it is now sitting happily in Poole Yacht Club marina. On balance it was an excellent buy, but probably less good in today's climate with the low value of the £ and rising costs in Greece.

Might be worth talking to Chris Hawes at Yacht Fractions who represents Kiriacoulis or Neil at Sail Ionian to get a view as to the current market. Ionian is a good place because generally the boats have an easy time and access from UK is good.
 
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