Boat NOT broken down, but...

[MapisM]

...the thread from petem reminded me of something I was already thinking to ask: does anyone of you guys who are used to gas guzzler (aka planing) boats have a fuel transfer and filtration system onboard? Let me explain why I'm asking.

My old lady had twin parallel pre-filters for each engine, which could be switched just by closing/opening the respective valves.
A nice setup in theory, but OTT in practice - in fact, I only bothered switching the working filters once a year, just for the sake of using all of them. In fact, believe it or not, those filters are still the same that I found in the boat back in 2000 when I bought her, which pretty sure are the same she was built with, another 4 years earlier.
I suppose that has a lot to see with the fact that with a 15 lph total fuel burn, there isn't a lot of fuel to clean, to start with...
Anyway, now that I must deal with a 150 lph boat instead, I'm a bit more concerned about fuel filtration - also because I only have single Separ filters feeding each engine.

So, that got me thinking: most P boats (possibly all, as far as I can remember) have more than one fuel tank (mine has two on the sides, plus one in the center bottom). But I can't remember to have ever seen a fuel transfer and filtration system on any P boat, while that is a rather popular setup in trawlers and long range cruisers.
Which is funny when you think about it, because logically, and also based on my experience with the old boat, the need for a solid fuel control and cleaning system is actually LOWER in those vessels, compared to a P boat.
Sure, being stuck in the middle of an ocean crossing can be more critical than being stuck in the middle of the Med. But it's not like the latter would be a pleasure, either...!
Besides, those 16 pretty expensive injectors which I've got inside the e/r pretty sure would rather do their job properly if feeded only with clean fuel.

Bottom line, I am thinking to retrofit a fuel pump allowing to transfer the fuel from the lower tank (which is about half of the total capacity) to either one or both of those on the sides - filtering also the fuel in the process.
Of course, this can only be done when the tanks are about 50% (or less) full, but in my normal usage I'm not planning to need anywhere near the total range the boat can handle - hence staying somewhat light on fuel will be rather the norm than the exception.

Wadduthink guys, would that be OTT and I should just keep some spare Separ filters onboard and be done with it, or does the idea make sense?
Also, I'd be curious to hear if anyone is aware of P boats originally built with a fuel transfer and filtration system of some kind.
Tx in advance!

 

[petem]

Don't you risk condensation / rusting with tanks that are never more than half full?

 

[Portofino]

Go fast for longer --planing boat remember ,different mind set -- keep topping up -refresh and add a fuel debug /conditioner --we use "Startron " as well as antibacterial also alledgedly some how disperses any water safley into the fuel .
Also remember by running @17-18 00 rpm ----all day the returned fuel is filtered so in effect it's all circulated round what you have many times before by chance it finds it's way clean to an injector .

@PeteM --tank condensation is not really an issue in the Med ,due to the relative warmth .
In the winter I have a few oil heaters in each space .

Stick with what you have my advice for a few seasons get to know your boat a bit more .

Ps the day after a good run mwhen the engines are cooler ,feel the warmth of the tanks ,they take longer to cool than the "iron " lumps ---then imagine how many times the stuff has gone round the filters yesterday .

 

[superheat6k]

Setting up a portable transfer and polishing system is straightforward and not overly expensive especially when the cost of other 'toys' is considered. ~ £400 will easily provide a simple system.

My simple polishing rig consists of a fuel prefilter and 12 v Holley fuel pump. With instant dripless connectors I can ...

Transfer fuel between tanks or circulate the same tank
Polish all fuel being moved
Feed one engine from another's tank
If (stupidly) I were to run low on fuel I can cleanly move the dregs from one tank into the other.
Blow back the pickup pipes should a piece of crud get picked up
Prime from the system through the pre and main filters right through to the injection pumps.

The amount of condensation gathering in a partially filled tank is minimal, with the major sources of water contamination being poor sealing of deck filler cap threads, which I keep thoroughly greased, or picking up contaminants when fuelling. I polish my tanks routinely for ~ an hour each month, and always after fuelling. Presently however I haven't had to drain the sediment bowl or change the element on the polishing filter for the past three years.

 

[MapisM]

Wow, that sounds interesting. Am I understanding correctly that you built it yourself?
I just can't imagine how you could arrange to have such flexibility just by inserting some dripless connectors into the existing pipes - didn't you need also some T valves here and there?
I'd be interested to hear more about your setup, if you don't mind elaborating further! :encouragement:

PS: I'm not sure to understand the "priming from filters to the injection pump" part.
In my MAN engines, there's a manual pump to do that, essentially attached to the pump, that must be screwed off for pumping and screwed/sealed back on when done.
I can't imagine how to connect an electric pump to do the same job...

 

[MapisM]

Don't you risk condensation / rusting with tanks that are never more than half full?

Too early to tell with the new boat, which btw has structural GRP tanks.

But just for your reference, this is my experience with the old lady, since I moved her to Sardinia, back in 2006 (previously, I did top up the tanks, occasionally):
- 4 steel tanks, exactly 1x1x1 meter each - 4k liters in total.
- At the beginning of each summer, depending on how much fuel was left from the previous year, I loaded somewhere between 600 and 1000 liters. Fuel level NEVER reached more than one third or so of the total capacity.
- I NEVER refilled during the summer, and normally I ended the season with about 3/400 liters still left in the tanks.
- Therefore, the boat sat all winter with the tanks roughly ONE TENTH full.

As I said in my OP, pre filters are 20 years old, and counting. Condensation? Wazzat?

 

[BartW]

tbh I don't think it is worth the hassle,

most modern boat engines are A LOT MORE vulnereable from bad fuel than our MAN's
( my VP D3 are a very good example ! from experience)

and imo popular filling stations can't afford to have issues with any of their clients.
fe in porto Montenegro they have their own test lab, and each supply to them is tested, and tanks are cleaned every winter (800.000l !)

BA has twin racor prefilters on each engine, but both are / were alway's open,
(I thought they were doubled to be able to replace without stopping the engines)
BA also has a metal decantation box, (in the fuel supply line, below the bottom level of the tanls)
I drain about a litre of fuel out of each side before every fuel filling.
I never found water in there, but usually a bit of "dust" or "sand"

the wing fuel tanks were not in use when I bought the boat,
the tubing was taken out, we reinstalled that, but for cleaning the rust from the inside of the tanks, I had them half filled with fuel, and during a long trip from SOF to Rome, I had the fuel circulating through a self made polishing system (pump + filter)
and there was some "brown stuff" in the filters after several hours polishing,
after replacing the filters twice, they remained clean.
since than we are using the wing tanks in parallel with the main tanks.

in my boating career, only ones I had bad fuel (that I know of)
and that was from a popular fuel station in UK, (Falmouth)
afther that filling much more smoke and smell than ever before

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

Wadduthink guys, would that be OTT and I should just keep some spare Separ filters onboard and be done with it, or does the idea make sense?
Also, I'd be curious to hear if anyone is aware of P boats originally built with a fuel transfer and filtration system of some kind.
Tx in advance!

Presumably, fuel is drawn to each engine from the lower tank ie the lower tank is not just ancillary fuel storage? If so, personally I'd just be thinking about chucking away the crappy Separ filters and fitting an alarmed dual Racor system each side and then if youre really worried about fuel quality, buying it from a reputable source (ie Sacirn) and regularly putting a fuel additive in the tank when you fill up

Btw my F630 just has one tank whereas my old F53 had 3 tanks. Frankly just having one tank without transfer pipework is much simpler and easier. I've never seen a fuel polishing system in any P boat I've looked at. As youre going to find out, P boats can go through fuel rather quickly so the fuel is being changed very regularly and therefore IMHO I think a fuel polishing system is not worth having

 

[superheat6k]

Wow, that sounds interesting. Am I understanding correctly that you built it yourself?
I just can't imagine how you could arrange to have such flexibility just by inserting some dripless connectors into the existing pipes - didn't you need also some T valves here and there?
I'd be interested to hear more about your setup, if you don't mind elaborating further! :encouragement:

PS: I'm not sure to understand the "priming from filters to the injection pump" part.
In my MAN engines, there's a manual pump to do that, essentially attached to the pump, that must be screwed off for pumping and screwed/sealed back on when done.
I can't imagine how to connect an electric pump to do the same job...

Six dripless female connectors, each with a ball isolating valve to be absolutely sure the system remains sealed. Male matching connectors on the lines to / from the polishing rig. These can be bought from Ebay here ...

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/QUICK-REL...var=590698457071&_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649

These were tee'd into the spill return line from each engine, the pick up pipe before the pre-filter, and further directly plumbed to the low point drains.

Routine polishing or balancing from the low point drains returning to the spill connection, same tank for re-circulation polishing, opposite tank to transfer or adjust levels.

Back blast the pick up and prime filters - from low point drain, returning to the pre filter inlet. This pushes the fuel back into the tank through the normal pick up pipe, but at the same partially pressurises the fuel system to the pre-filters and on engine filter, after the lift pump.

On my prior TAMD60C and current 6BTA5.9M (both conventional jerk pump engines) the partial pressure is easily enough to push any air and a decent flow of fuel out for priming after maintenance or filter changes.

The rig itself is a Baldwin Coalescer filter with PF10 element. The flow rate is quite low, so I prefer this to a Racor for this application because the fuel flow speed is not sufficient to achieve any real centrifuge effect through the Racor, and the Baldwin has a decent surface area. Note the pump is mounted after the filter, drawing the fuel through it, and whereas this reduces flow, pumping first smashes up any water globules into tiny particles that would then pass through the coalescing filter.

I have also book marked this pump in case my Holley gives up (been going strong since 2008 btw)

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Facet-Red...e=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649

 

[MapisM]

Presumably, fuel is drawn to each engine from the lower tank ie the lower tank is not just ancillary fuel storage?

Precisely.
Just for the records, the setup is actually a bit more sophisticated, because the return fuel of each engine go to the respective side tanks only, and each of the side tanks has a pickup valve at its bottom - though that's closed and not connected.
In fact, in the earlier models they built in the option of drawing fuel for each engine either from the central lower tank or from the respective side tank, just by opening/closing some valves.
But the additional flexibility was perceived as just a complication rather than an advantage from most clients, so they removed the additional pipes+valves and kept it simpler, exactly as per your presumption.

But I digress.
I see your point ref. fuel not staying for long in the tanks (sadly!), but what do you think is wrong exactly with the Separ filters?
It's a bit early to tell, but they didn't give me any problems so far. They have a transparent bottom bowl, btw.

 

[MapisM]

Six dripless female connectors
...

An impressive system indeed, and particularly amazing when the price/performance is taken into account.
Definitely some food for thought, many thanks for taking the time to explain in detail.

Otoh, I must say that I understand the suggestion of not bothering too much, from the other chaps used to P boats.
Decisions, decisions... I'll think about all that!

 

[Machaseo]

https://www.sbmar.com/articles/marine-fuel-filtration-the-seaboard-way/

Well worth a read.

 

[vas]

But I digress.
I see your point ref. fuel not staying for long in the tanks (sadly!), but what do you think is wrong exactly with the Separ filters?
It's a bit early to tell, but they didn't give me any problems so far. They have a transparent bottom bowl, btw.

P.,

I also have Separ 2000/something I don't remember on MiToS.
IIRC LS1 and others don't like them on the grounds that replacing filters on the go with a bumpy weather is NOT going to be fun.
Undoing 4 bolts, opening it up, removing and cleaning a square rubber seal, replacing, refitting, filling with fuel or priming is not something you'll do in 2 mins flat by undoing a T nut, removing whole assembly filling with fuel the new one and refitting it.

Having said that, after 3 yrs almost on the water and the almost 900nm I've done around the isles, I haven't even bothered opening the thing up to check/replace the filters, bowls are clean with no debris.
I did remove and discarded the yanmar generator builtin filter though which was a bitch to keep sealed and air leak free!

cheers

V.

 

[MapisM]

Having said that, after 3 yrs almost on the water and the almost 900nm I've done around the isles, I haven't even bothered opening the thing up to check/replace the filters, bowls are clean with no debris.

Good to hear that!
Btw, I understand that Separ filters have a sort spring bypass, which if and when the filter is completely clogged, still allows an (unfiltered) flow to the engine.
While I understand the principle of not starving the engines if possible, this sounds a bit scary when you think about it, because leaves the pump and injectors only "defended" by the engine filters...
Have you ever noticed how this bypass works in your filters?
I've yet to have to open mine, fingers crossed...

 

[MapisM]

https://www.sbmar.com/articles/marine-fuel-filtration-the-seaboard-way/
Well worth a read.

Thanks for the link.
Actually, I already gave that webpage a look after Portofino linked it in the "boat broken down" thread.
All well and good, but for some reason it seems to me that no mechanics around here are anywhere near as careful (and knowledgeable) on this matter as some on the other side of the Pond.
The typical answer I got when mentioning my doubt on the fuel filtration system of the new to me boat is along the lines of ...it worked for a dozen of years and well above a thousand of hours, if it ain't broke...
Which stands to reason, all considered... Mind, I still would love to have something more reliable/safe, but I'm not sure to have the will to do myself something like superheat6k did on his boat!

 

[crossy]

P.,

I also have Separ 2000/something I don't remember on MiToS.
IIRC LS1 and others don't like them on the grounds that replacing filters on the go with a bumpy weather is NOT going to be fun.
Undoing 4 bolts, opening it up, removing and cleaning a square rubber seal, replacing, refitting, filling with fuel or priming is not something you'll do in 2 mins flat by undoing a T nut, removing whole assembly filling with fuel the new one and refitting it.

Having said that, after 3 yrs almost on the water and the almost 900nm I've done around the isles, I haven't even bothered opening the thing up to check/replace the filters, bowls are clean with no debris.
I did remove and discarded the yanmar generator builtin filter though which was a bitch to keep sealed and air leak free!

cheers

V.

Interesting. I too have Separ 2000/5 pre filters and find them really easy to change the filters on. Yes, 4 bolts on top but these have never presented an issue?

Close feed from tank, undo bled screw and drain diesel from glass bowl and pipe using drain valve underneath, undo 4 screws and remove lid and spacer, replace filter, spacer and lid, tighten the 4 bolts, open tank feed and close bleed screw when diesel appears.

I assume the Racors are a similar process other than negating the need for a small socket?

I have also had no issues with my separs save for a drain valve which started to leak last week (well, they are 20 years old). Managed to get a replacement in France delivered to Loctudy the following morning before 9am.

I do regularly find a bit of crud in my bowls though as I have a small diesel bug issue recently so am also interested in fuel polishing/cleaning solutions.
Marine 16 do a solution called a "diesel dipper" which might be worth looking at though clearly won't on it's own to the fuel transfer bit http://www.marine16.co.uk/acatalog/Diesel-Dipper.html

Incidentally, if you don't go down a full filtration and pump system such as Superheat6K's a smaller and worthwhile upgrade for your Separ's, which I am considering, might be a replacement bowl which has a built in water alarm, if you don't already have that of course.

Andrew

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

But I digress.
I see your point ref. fuel not staying for long in the tanks (sadly!), but what do you think is wrong exactly with the Separ filters?
It's a bit early to tell, but they didn't give me any problems so far. They have a transparent bottom bowl, btw.

Ah OK. The Separ filters I've had on my boats in the past have not had clear bowls. Are they alarmed for water contamination?

Personally I think a dual filter system is worth having whether its Separ or Racor providing you can genuinely keep the engine running on one filter whilst you change the other. You never know when you might suffer fuel contamination although I have never heard of an instance in the Med.

The other thing you might consider doing is having your tanks emptied and cleaned. I had mine done this year on the advice of a technician and apparently a fair amount of debris was removed, which of course could conceivably have got into the fuel lines had the tank been run very low

 

[MapisM]

Ah OK. The Separ filters I've had on my boats in the past have not had clear bowls. Are they alarmed for water contamination?

Yup, they are. Labelled as 2000/18 KD, whatever that means.

I fully agree that dual filters make sense, but unfortunately in this respect I'm restricted by logistics, i.e. no further space on the bulkhead where the current filters are placed - and where the fuel lines are routed, obviously.
Which are all made in s/steel btw, which is nice, but otoh tricky to move/modify.

I'm curious about the tank cleaning you mention, do you know how the job was done exactly?
I suppose that even in your bigger boat you only have a smallish inspection plate, so going physically inside the tank to clean it properly is not an option - or is it?
Btw, am I right in remembering that your tank is made in steel? I recently understood from an engineer who knows Ferrettis like the back of his hands that they also built structural GRP tanks, in some of their larger models.

 

[MapisM]

Incidentally, if you don't go down a full filtration and pump system such as Superheat6K's a smaller and worthwhile upgrade for your Separ's, which I am considering, might be a replacement bowl which has a built in water alarm, if you don't already have that of course.

Yup, I do - as per previous reply to Deleted User.
Actually, I believe it isn't a retrofit, but rather came with the filters - at least with the models I've got.
If you're interested in some pics, just ask.

 

[vas]

Interesting. I too have Separ 2000/5 pre filters and find them really easy to change the filters on. Yes, 4 bolts on top but these have never presented an issue?

Close feed from tank, undo bled screw and drain diesel from glass bowl and pipe using drain valve underneath, undo 4 screws and remove lid and spacer, replace filter, spacer and lid, tighten the 4 bolts, open tank feed and close bleed screw when diesel appears.

I assume the Racors are a similar process other than negating the need for a small socket?

I have also had no issues with my separs save for a drain valve which started to leak last week (well, they are 20 years old). Managed to get a replacement in France delivered to Loctudy the following morning before 9am.

I do regularly find a bit of crud in my bowls though as I have a small diesel bug issue recently so am also interested in fuel polishing/cleaning solutions.
Marine 16 do a solution called a "diesel dipper" which might be worth looking at though clearly won't on it's own to the fuel transfer bit http://www.marine16.co.uk/acatalog/Diesel-Dipper.html

Incidentally, if you don't go down a full filtration and pump system such as Superheat6K's a smaller and worthwhile upgrade for your Separ's, which I am considering, might be a replacement bowl which has a built in water alarm, if you don't already have that of course.

Andrew

on the marina or on the hard, no issues
On a hot e/r wont be fun.
Actually two issues I had related to the rubber seal breaking or not sealing properly. Remedied after an extensive dismantle and careful clean of the whole filter.
Other issue is that following the rebuilt, I placed them fairly high up, approx at 800lt + level of the tank. So unless tanks are full (which they never are!) I have to bleed the system.
Coming to think of it, I'll try and move them lower so they autovent!

P. no idea on this blocked filter, diesel bypasses filter and goes straight to level two filtration on the engine. Will read the PDFs again...

cheers

V.