Boat in build pics (Squadron 78)

[jfm]

JFM, how do you sleep at nights with that amount of excitement going on. When I was just looking at buying a boat, was one excited trip for me and a few times getting up in the night making notes. The amount of experience that you have gained over the years has helped you cope better than most, but you still sound just as enthusiastic as a beginner. Good on you.
David

Tee hee. Of course I am as enthusiastic as a beginner. I still remember my first factory visit btw. It was to Bell Woodworking (in Leicester, i think) to collect my first boat, a mirror dinghy kit, aged about 13

Speccing and watching the build of the 78 is a lot of fun. There is loads of choice on the spec and much skill and enthusiasm on the part of the Fairline build team to make a customised boat. Their whole attitude is to take up the challenge and go an extra mile or two, rather than "Oh no, it's the customer from hell, what does he want now?". Indeed they express a bit of disappointment at the bog standard non customised builds that progress through the factory. The team who build the 78s are highly skilled and nothing I've suggested has fazed them in terms of complexity. On the joinery front they're doing things like moving and reshaping bulkheads (that swoopy curvy bulkhead at the head of the mastercabin bed is being made square in my boat, with two square pods at each side), changing a lots of furniture design generally, as well as the technical stuff like stabs, new dashboards, extra fuel tank, new staircase, etc

We have exchanged perhaps 100+ emails and I've sent them perhaps 40 pdf pages of my drawings and sketches, all of which have been received with enthusaism and the answer is invariably "yes we can do that".

If you are buying a boat this size and prefer to buy in sterling not euros there is nothing to compare with this. You wouldn't get anywhere to this level of customisation with Princess or s/seeker. You would with Aquastar, but for all sorts of reasons I don't want an A/star (wonderful boats that they are). You would have to go to a SanLorenzo etc custom builder, and I don't think you'd have a better product at the end.

So it's a lot of fun, and it isn't hard to be enthusiastic about it. I'm not addicted to building though; I'll be enthusiastic about sailing several thousand miles in her too.

 

[jfm]

finishing looks impressively shiny and smooth!

Before answering your question, I must start with a caveat: I've never seen a FL78 in flesh. I saw some FLs - Targas, Phantoms and Squaddies, but not a 78.

Hi MM. Thanks for the comments. I'd like you to come and see the 78 when it's done (that's an official invitation, regardless of whether you have an ORY customer to entertian!). The T's, P's and smaller Sq's are nicely built, but the 78 is made on a different line and is quite different. The speed of build is much smaller, the foremen have decades of build experience and great skill and attitiude, and I have no hesitation in saying that it is a SL level of build. But come and see for yourself!

The hull is very shiny. Those pics are striaght out of the mould, no finishing work done. The mould tools are much better than SL's - there are far fewer visible ripples on the FL78 than you get in a SL

joinery execution and fit, joints, etc. - because they're not the ones which catch my attention on a boat.

Fair comment - yes, caring or not caring about joinery is a personal thing. I do care very much about it. Wood is a gorgeous material and I love seeing a difficult joint made well. CNC cutting has of course transformed this aspect so that complex difficult joinery is now affordable on a one-off basis. But I find panels with corners finished by glued on L shape timber, for example, very disappointing. I am very disappointed by Princess's current stuff - see the corner joint on the bed box bottom rhs of this pic - this is the Princess 78, £2m+. (Even the colours dont match - princess have got an unattractive pinky hue in their oak veneered panels; they should be light gold with no pink). Princess didn't do this on their last generation of designs.

What I'm mostly interested in are the boat structure (btw, did you get those plugs of the stabs holes yet? I for one would be interested to see some pics), the equipments and their installation, the plumbing and wiring, the strength and stiffness of all components - this sort of things.
And in this respect, SL is imho in another league compared to any FL I've seen so far - with the above caveat, obviously.
On a SL, you can really feel the solidity of each and every detail onboard.
Starting from the passerelle: if you walked on some of them, you can actually distinguish between the inherent flexibility of the passerelle itself (which is not nice, but normal), and the flexibility due to the boat transom where it's attached (which is not nice, period).
And as you surely know even better than myself, there is indeed some flexibility also on the transom in the Sq58, for instance. It's not too bad actually - probably less than most competitors, but it's there.
Besides, if you grab any rails, or the frame of the f/b windscreen, you can easily flex them with just one hand on a FL.
If you touch the rails or the windscreen of a SL, they feel like you could use them as cleats!

YUp, SL is in another league compared to the FLs you mention, but that's because SLs are generally 70foot plus and £2m plus! They're not in a different league from the FL78, which is itself in a different league from other FLs. FL78 wiring is astonishing - it is as good as or better than SL. Every single wire is placed and truncked and clipped to look neat as well as to work. Even though to most owners it will always be out of sight. It really is quite a sight. I'll get you some pics!

I'm not with you on passerelle. On this size boat they are never attached to the transom. The hideway passerelles slide out of a cassette hidden under the deck. The cassette is say 1.7m long, and attached to the boat's structure along its full length.

There is no perceptable movement on the Sq58 passerelle. When you stand on the end, you cannot feel any sponginess. The deflection is virtually immeasurable without equipment - it's like 3mm if an 80kg man stands on the end, fully extended

The windscreen frame and rails on the FL78 can be used as cleats. Not on smaller FLs, I agree

But what really impressed me is the e/r. The quality of all components used for plumbing and wiring, and their accurate installation, are more similar to what I've seen in industrial plants rated for hazardous chemicals, than to what can normally be found in pleasure boats.

Fair comment. SL engine rooms are indeed a work of art. The FL78 is pretty good too, and to be honest I can't remeber enough detial of SL engine rooms to make a detailed comparison. I am happy with the e/r on the FL78 though. And it has 2x gensets, whereas SL72 has only one. BTW, the FL e/r has plumbed in Reverso oil change system (2x engines, 2x gensets), sight gauges on the fuel tanks, electric vent closers for fires, etc, so fairly decent kit. It also has athwartships fuel in front of the engines not side tanks, which loses accom space but makes for nicer e/r and is the right choice imho, same as SL. Princess in contrast spoilt the 78 e/r because they have fuel tanks at sides of engines

Now, in my view, this is a sort of an "each to their own" thing.
I mean, you're correct when you say that veneered MDF (or also HDF, for that matter) is better for panels, but you are "only" technically correct, based on the build technologies nowadays available.
Otoh, as the better architects know perfectly, better engineering does not always mean an improvement of human perception/experience.
A friend of mine has an original "fratino" table in his country house (I think it's called "refectory" table in English). Late 17th century, solid walnut, roughly 13' long, 3' wide, 3" thick. Of course it's not perfectly straight, but trust me, its feeling alone can improve anything you eat or drink on it.
And that's without even starting to talk about value. Which I don't know in detail, except that he refused an offer whose order of magnitude would make that Viscount Linley bureau appear like Ikea furniture in comparison.

Yes, I meant veneered is better than solid purely in a technical sense. On the human perception thing solid can indeed be better than veneered, but you're talking about a country house table top where solidness and cronkiness can be ok. For the big panels and furniture fronts on boats I would only have veneer, even though if others prefer cronky/solid then fine. I was merely disagreeing the concept put forward that solid is instrinsically always better, and veneer is a poor IKEA-ish substitute. That just isn't the case!

Re. the f/b design of SL, I agree with you. There's room for improvement, to say the least.
Then again, how often did you helm from the f/b and had to MARPA a target on the radar on a night passage?!?
On my f/b, I only have the engines instruments, a sounder and the a/p repeater, and never felt the need for anything else, because imho the f/b helm station is strictly meant for wandering around in glorious weather, period.

The SL72 fly is a design failure, period. The only way to buy that boat is ask them to start again. I sometimes do a whole night (in the Med in August, where temp might drop no lower than 20deg) on the flybr. But night work can also just mean staying at anchor till late then coming back maybe 20miles to my berth at 1am. On all these occasions a good flybr dash matters. Anyway it's not just MARPA and night work. My comment on the SL72 about getting up off the slab of foam to see the (laughable) E80 plotter applies equally to daytime use, eg driving through the shallows between Cannes and the Lerins islands say, or the rocky anchorages in Bonifacio straits, when you need to check the electronic chart to avoid grounding

I enjoy the debate with you MM - do come and try out the FL78 next year. I reckon I'll convince you that (a) in absolute terms it is an extraordinarily well build boat (and I'll remove panels so you can see the construction and wiring, etc); (b) Fairline's ability to customise is on a par with the likes of SL and (c) for the price (less than a SL, obviously) is it amazing value bearing in mind that many buyers like me who can afford to buy the thing are not rich enough not to care about getting an attractive price

PS, apropos nothing above, I meant to tell you I have specced the 12kw radar

 

[MapisM]

I enjoy the debate with you MM - do come and try out the FL78 next year. I reckon I'll convince you...

Thanks J, I'm more than happy to accept the invitation, as I also enjoy these debates.
But since I enjoy the sea even more (much more, actually), why don't you arrange to come directly to my cruising grounds in your maiden voyage? It's a just a 700nm or so straight hop from Gibraltar!
Ater that and Biscay, from here to Antibes it will be a walk in the park...
I'd be also happy to join you from the UK, if you need some crew. And anyhow, I could show you all the nicest spots around here upon arrival, which are spectacular at the beginning of the season, with just a few other boats around - or none at all.
The only (minor) problem is that many wonderful bays are also a bit exposed.
Then again, what better opportunity to properly test those stabs at rest?!
And there are places where the scenery is just perfect for some pics of your new jewel, if you wish. We could also make some u/w clips of the hull and stabs while working - the water is crystal clear, just perfect!

No problem to change my mind as appropriate, either.
Based on what you're saying, it's very likely that I'll have to.
Btw, a basic rule I've always followed in my personal boat buying experiences (and in suggestions to some friends) is to rather look at the smaller stuff of a yard, not the bigger.
I mean, when looking frinstance for a 40 footer, AOTBE I've always found that the better ones were built by yards going from there all the way up to 100' or more, rather than by yards which only build boats in the 20'-40' range.
It's almost inevitable, 'cause so many things are different: plants, equipments, choice of materials, workers and engineering skills, project team, you name it.
So, if really FL can build their bigger boat in such way to make it comparable or better to those built by their competitors 100% focused on bigger boats, and at competitive prices, that surely deserves some respect.

PS: you're right re.the passerelle, hideaway models are structurally very different from the external ones, and they don't need a particularly stiff transom, so it's not appropriate to compare the two.
But no sponginess at all on the Sq58...
Well, either I'm extremely sensible, or I must go on a strong diet!
And considering the consequences of the two alternatives, I hope you don't mind if I'll stick to the first.

PPS: and apropos of invitations, don't forget that you have an open one for the lake in August. The boat spin I can offer is neither comparable to a Sq78, nor to the one in the speedboat clip I posted in another thread, but not too shabby either.
According to spannerman rating, at 61kts it's already in the "big boys club", though just about...

 

[Seahope]

Hi jfm.

I am really enjoying this thread and think it wonderful that someone is able to buy such a fabulous boat at this 'difficult' time. Your pictures are great and it is lovely to hear about gadgets and technologies that the rest of us will probably not get to experience first hand.

Regards

Seahope

 

[jfm]

Hi jfm.

I am really enjoying this thread and think it wonderful that someone is able to buy such a fabulous boat at this 'difficult' time. Your pictures are great and it is lovely to hear about gadgets and technologies that the rest of us will probably not get to experience first hand.

Regards

Seahope

Hi Seahope. I've been saving up for the 78 for a few years and I didn't expect there to be a recession but anyway I reckon it's good to spend in a recession. There is something like 8 man years of (UK) labour in building the 78 and there is a "multiplier" (as economists call it) on the expenditure

Here are pics of the dashboard plug being made at Broom Boats in Norfolk, kindly sent to me by Aquatom of this parish (who happens to be nearby). The plug is being made by adapting a standard Fairline sq78 dash, then a mould tool will be made off this plug, then the final dash will be made from the mould tool. On the big flat surfaces where the plotter screens will go, there will be a 3mm recess (along the masking tape outer edge in 3rd pic) for the dashboard facing panels to sit into

 

[Seahope]

Hi Seahope. I've been saving up for the 78 for a few years and I didn't expect there to be a recession but anyway I reckon it's good to spend in a recession. There is something like 8 man years of (UK) labour in building the 78 and there is a "multiplier" (as economists call it) on the expenditure

Absolutely. If we all kept our money invested/under the mattress then the effects of the recession would be much worse and you are buying British too! I hope there are also economies of scale which are being shared ;-)

Regards


Seahope

 

[benjenbav]

I see that there are some traditional workshop wallcoverings captured in pic 3

 

[Hurricane]

Reading between the lines, jfm
It seems that you might be "jumping ship" so to speak and moving to Garmin.

However, if I were in your position, I'd give all of them a good look again and select on the merit of each manufacturer.

Are you planning a glass bridge system this time?
Thats what I'd go for but, then again, I like PC feeds onto the help positions and the Raymarine systems did it for me.

 

[jfm]

Reading between the lines, jfm
It seems that you might be "jumping ship" so to speak and moving to Garmin.

However, if I were in your position, I'd give all of them a good look again and select on the merit of each manufacturer.

Are you planning a glass bridge system this time?
Thats what I'd go for but, then again, I like PC feeds onto the help positions and the Raymarine systems did it for me.

Hi Hurric
Yes I'm going with Garmin. Fairline/Essex Boatyards offered me a good deal on this boat and part of the package was to let them use it for LIBS2011, so it kinda had to be Garmin - they couldn't easily show a (say) Raymarine boat bearing in mind their overall deal with Garmin. Though, as it happens it will now not be in LIBS becuase it wont be finished in time, but some of the Garmin gear is ordered and the dash in the picture above is sized for Garmin 15inch screens, so it's too late to change, not that I want to

I think I'll be happy with Garmin. I haven't looked too deeply but it seems to do pretty much the same as Raymarine and uses the same nmea2000 wiring structure as I'm used to with Raymarine STNG. At a detialed level each is better than the other on some points, but overall I reckon they're even stevens. I've been disappointed with my Raymarine ST70 displays (very dim in sunlight, and v expensive) and the comparable Garmin GMI 10s look better and have nicer graphics. I'll report back next year on Garmin. Iangrant has recently switched Raym to Garmin and is happy. I'm basically expecting it to be on a par with Raymarine

I'm much less computer knowledgeable than you and prefer this plug and play stuff out of the box, nmea2000, ie Raym or Garmin, rather than something more involved like a glass bridge system. I frankly don't have time to research glass bridges with all the other aspects of this boat that I'm involved in speccing!

Are you thinking of going glass bridge? On current boat, or do you have plans to switch boat sometime? I'd be interested to see what you spec!

 

[Hurricane]

I'm probably using the wrong words here but I've always considered my G Series system as a "glass bridge" system.
Probably a bit of a "poor mans" glass bridge system but it handles things exactly the way I like.
I particularly like the simple buttons on the front of the G Sreies displays.
You simply press the leftmost button to connect the display to the Raymarine nav system and the second button to get the PC the third button connects with the port docking camera and so on. And when you want to switch back from (say) the TV to the radar, its just a single push of a button on that particular display.
When I speck'd the system, this was exactly what I was looking for.

I have heard of people who have had problems with the G Series, but our system has only failed once - and then only partially. That was when we were about to arrive for the first time at Sant Carles (djefabs will remember) - the DSM (Digital Sounder Module) stopped communicating with the GPM processors. I had originally specified that the DSM should have its own transducer so, in this case, the old ST60 transducer still functioned and provided us with with accurate soundings as we approached. djefabs carefully checked the ST60 reported soundings with those on the charts as we approached. After a system reboot, the DSM worked perfectly and has done ever since. That is the only failure that I've had and we are approaching 5000 nautical miles on the equipment now. Its been very reliable.

So, no, I'm not planning any change the nav systems. In fact, we are really happy with the boat as well - there are always things that need fixing on boats but this Princess has been really good to us. Two cruises to Ibiza this year so far and without a hitch.

 

[jfm]

I made a quick visit to the factory today to see a few bits and pieces, including the early part of the stabiliser installation. Early stage hardware has been installed to the hull, including driveshafts, P brackets, rudders, fuel tanks, hydraulic plumbing, various services and plumbing, etc. Various pics follow – hope not too dull

Pic below shows propshafts fitted, and one of the hydraulic lift mechanisms for the bathing platform. Plus a modified trim tab design – this is the first 78 they have built with this tab arrangement

Next pic below shows forward part of hull showing fwd black tank (out of 3). The piping in thick black insulation is chilled water piping for the airco

Next, mid section of hull. The big bulkhead is aft end of guest accommodation, front of engine room

Here’s a same pic as above but with approx outline of 3rd fuel tank, not yet fitted. It’s under the double bed, so no smoking There is also a balck tank just in front of this fuel tank that is visible in this pic; this serves the master cabin heads

Below is engine bay showing main fuel tanks. All 3 tanks are the work of Pennpromo of this forum. They’re beautiful things – thanks Pennpromo!

And here is what will be the crew cabin and laundry/utility space. There will be a twin crew cabin to starboard that converts to a double, a shower room, and a Pullman 3rd crew bed to port. There’s a worktop, sink, tools and spares store and 3x 600mm domestic appliances on the port side. Plus systems stuff like 2 hydraulic packs and batteries

Below are some pics ref the stabilisers. The first pic below shows the location of the port stab, before cutting the whole. This will be inside the walk-in wardrobe in the master cabin, just in front of the engine room forward bulkhead. (by the way, the little blue box above it in the pic is the worm drive electric actuator for one of the seacocks)

There was a person from Sleipner there who has fitted them a few times before, and he brought a tool to cut the holes in the hull. These holes are 175 dia x 75 deep, and the tool used was like a router with a diamond tipped tool which all arced around a shaft bolted through the hull at the hole centre. The operator rotates the tool by hand to cut a circular groove and ultimately cut a core out to form the hole. I’ll get one of the cores and some pics of it next week – I had to rush off today

The stab units themselves are beautifully made and finished. The actuator unit has a 500mm dia flange/flange plate either side of the hull, through bolted. Quite serious stuff. The shaft is 60 dia, and the reason for the 175 dia hole through the hull is that the bearing housing sits within the hole to get the bottom bearing as low as possible, for obvious good reasons. The bearings are a pair of SKF roller bearings. The stab fins were not at Fairline yet but they will be 1.5m long and project 725mm deep from the hull, with little vortex-stopper winglets at the bottom edge. They rotate about 33deg each way.

Finally, here is the new Squadron badge for the 2011 model year. This is hull #67, the first 2011 model year boat, which is nearly finished and going to Oz. Mine is #70, the 4th 2011 m/year boat they are building

That’s all for now; more next week maybe

 

[grumpy_o_g]

Thanks jfm. I know I'm sad but it's almost a crime to hide some of that engineering away. I'd probably put that lift mechanism on top of the platform. Looks absolutely gorgeous.

 

[jfm]

Thanks jfm. I know I'm sad but it's almost a crime to hide some of that engineering away. I'd probably put that lift mechanism on top of the platform. Looks absolutely gorgeous.

Yup, that's how I feel. The stabiliser actuators are beautiful things too and it's a shame to hide them. But no worries, when it's in the solent next year I'll remove the furniture and floor panels that hide this stuff so boat geeks can see it, you being front of the queue of course

 

[alt]

You just gave me a boat-horn

 

[grumpy_o_g]

You're a true gent, jfm.

 

[AndieMac]

First pic of the damaged leg also...

Is the 78 heading 'down under' the first to come here? Did they say where abouts? Love to see aboard one. The progress on yours appears quite quick.

 

[iangrant]

Blimey

that lot looks complicated! AND so much of it.

As a wee thought FWIW recently there has been a "fuel polishing" debate, I know that if I was at this stage with tanks being installed there would be access panels, "sampler" pumps from the bottom of the tank and a pump and polishing sytem filter ot two, but I'd guess you've got that covered.

She looks fantastic and it certainly looks a tidy and clean work ethic there.



Ian

 

[Hurricane]

Really interesting.
Please keep the pics and comments coming.
You've put a lot lot of thought into this build.

BTW - I've had some really good support from Sleipner UK.
They are local to us in Devon and I've popped in a few times - really helpful guys - one is a very keen motor boater.

 

[EME]

Brilliant ... a really great set of pics and your 'additional' overlays make it even more insightful into the what and how of a Big Build.

Some Router !

 

[mjf]

Agreed - very interesting indeed.

Seeing this work at the initial stages helps you understand what literally goes into our boats and why they cost so much!