Boat in build pics (Squadron 78)

[Bajansailor]

I got hopelessly lost trying to follow the thread above re gyro stabilisation, but it does sound very impressive...... changing tack a bit (and thinking about HLB's recent thread on flopper stoppers), but still on the theme of stablilising, I have just been reading about the flopper stoppers employed on the Dashew's Wind Horse - they offer some comments here :
http://setsail.com/fpb-booms-are-in-style/#more-11713
They say that the cost of gyro stabilisers for their vessel did not make sense - but it sounds (in the comments section later) like they are heartily fed up with the massive fin stabilisers!

 

[MapisM]

San Lorenzo eat your heart out

I recently had the opportunity to see some construction details of the drop-dead gorgeous boat below, which was visiting my home port.
And the above statement in your post #89 of this thread (referred to customisation level) sprung to my mind.

Because frankly speaking, I was somewhat suprised by your comment already at that time, since afaik at SL they don't even consider FL as a competitor. And after what I've seen - with all due respect for FL - I could understand why...

But that aside, what I actually wanted to suggest is to consider the alternative of an hardtop above the f/b, if feasible.
Imho, that will soon be a must on big boats (say 20+m), because it's both aesthetically nice (as the pic shows) and functionally in another league compared to any bimini, regardless of how automatically controlled it can be. Just my 2c, fwiw.

Anyhow, any updated build pics yet?

 

[jfm]

I got hopelessly lost trying to follow the thread above re gyro stabilisation,

I'm having fin stabs, btw

They say that the cost of gyro stabilisers for their vessel did not make sense

I don't get that. Nothing about a boat "makes sense" financially. Buying/choosing/speccing a boat is surely never done (in leisure circles) from a "makes sense" point of view. FWIW my stabilisers are costing something in the range £50k - £70k (I don't recall the exact figure). You just gotta gulp and decide whether you are prepared to spend that to have a stabbed boat. As regards resale, when there are say 6-8 used Sq74/Sq78s on the market I would as a buyer go for the stabbed one, all other things being equal. So there might be some "makes sense" on ease of resale

it sounds (in the comments section later) like they are heartily fed up with the massive fin stabilisers!

That's interesting cos I recall reading elsewhere on their website that they were very pleased with the near faultless performance of their (naiad, iirc) stabs. But that said, I don't think the Naiads work at zero speed/at anchor, which is why Windhorse has to consider flopperstoppers, whereas my Sleipners will work at anchor (and indeed that's at least half the reason for having them)

 

[rubberduck]

I think it is lacking one vital ingredient, the customary empty coke can to drive you nuts trying to work out what the rattle is.

 

[jfm]

Because frankly speaking, I was somewhat suprised by your comment already at that time, since afaik at SL they don't even consider FL as a competitor. And after what I've seen - with all due respect for FL - I could understand why...:eek[/IMG]

Hi MapisM. I'd be interested in more specific details of what you liked on the SL. I know SL will customise but ref my "eat your heart out" comment I honestly do not think they would build me a 72 with the level of customisation FL are offering on the Sq78, at least not at a sensible price. I'd be asking them to build an extra staircase, and install a whole new dashboard from a new mould tool, extra fuel tank, fin stabs, and so on. I don't think, and tell me if you think I'm wrong, SL's customisation on the 72 stretches to that level

As regards build quality I'm very aware of SL's reputation but I have looked at SLs (esp the 72) built in 2008-9 very carefully, behind the scenes, and there are plenty of good points in the construction but alas some poor points too. For a start, and I know this might make Italian boat fans gasp, the basic joinery execution and fit on a Fairline 78 is simply better than on a SL. The joints are better, the finish behind the scenes is better. The SL is more heavily built (SL72weighs 5 tonnes more than FL78) but I can't help thinking that is lazy engineering - they haven't designed weight out where they could. They also won't do modern things like big windows in the hull. And alas, there is absolutely nothing nice about the SL72 flybridge. It's just a design disaster. One staircase, awful helm dash and chairs, tender eats up all the space, yuk! I'm also suspicious (though I don't know) that the hulls are a bit flat and not as deep V as Olesinki's. That's what my checking of SL72 revealed, but I'd be interested to hear your view on why it is streets ahead of FL78

I cant make up my mind on hard tops. They can look quite good for sure. But I'm not sure I want such a solid lid above me on the flybridge (even with an opening aperture) and at the tail ends of the season I like to let all the sun in to get some heat so I quite like FL's bimini which folds away completely, hydraulically. Anyway, for me the lack of HT on the FL78 simply didn't count as a negative, at least on my personal score sheet, and there is no hard top on the SL72 which is the closest competitor

Below are a few more build pics of mine taken this morning - the hull just came out of the mould

 

[benjenbav]

Cor!

Interesting to see that the big windows are moulded and then will be cut out, wheras the smaller ones are moulded as holes. I suppose that's because of the more complicated pattern of the frame?

 

[Pinnacle]

How much extra did they charge to use white gelcoat on one side and cream on the other?

 

[jfm]

£99.99 for a very cheap digital camera Seriously, since this busted leg all my pics have been taken with a cheap n cheerful camera. It's hard to hold the bigger Canon "proper" camera when balancing on crutches. Normal photography service will be resumed soon I hope

 

[Mr Googler]

Don't bother with a super structure. Just put in a centre console, 10 300hp outboards on the back and bench seats for 200 close friends! Now that would be a boat looks awesome....even swimbo has taken an interest! Bodes well for the future!! Many congratulations John

 

[jfm]

centre console, 10 300hp outboards on the back and bench seats for 200 close friends! Now that would be a boat

That would be a lot of fun. My favourite boat as a kid was a Boston Whaler Outrage 21 (the early 80s version, beautiful curves on a dory hull, with the hull-deck just above the waterline) with a couple of Merc inline 6s. If I had an Outrage 78 I'd feel as though I'd arrived. 10x300 aint enough though - this one will have 3144hp

even swimbo has taken an interest! Bodes well for the future!!

Ha! Glad to be of assistance!

 

[tico]

Somewhere i seem to remember there was a photo of the original hull of the s/seeker Renegade 60 with no upperworks out on tests....some runabout!

 

[PowerYachtBlog]

I think comparing the SL to a Fairline is a bit like comparing Apples to Oranges or the other way round. See it how you want!
Sanlorenzo can accommodate many modifications which does not disturb the exterior lines. So dash, hard tops, extra stair cases are usually no problem for them. As is a flybridge with helm. Big view windows in owners cabin I think is a no, depends how the sales book is I think.
I actually just saw a new 72 with an owner who requested a close stern with opening bathing platform for his 72 similar to the 62. I dont think many builder can go as far making this modification.
Joinery. I dont know about the new SLs 2007 onwards but the old ones had very little veneer wood in them, meaning all wood was solid. Fitting was usually as good as it can get. I have also on various 82 and 72 and all where different to the other.
Some hidden places are always up for grabs in any build unless you inspect the build occasionally.
In a recent Genoa visit I think the best build quality I saw from Europe was from Uniesse, VZ and Mangusta. If you put US builders in them I think Hatteras, Cabo, and Viking are pretty close up there.
The best built from a UK company was a Fairline 47 Targa GT.

I think comparing hulls is so difficult especially nowadays. The SL72 has an 18 degrees deadrise, similar to what Olenski uses and usually has a similar deep fore foot about 35 to 40 degrees. What an SL will have better to a Fairline is the weight which helps, and usually a more central centre of gravity. Fairline and Olenski hulls are usually then slimmer which makes for easier steering and tighter turns.
Still I dont understand all this craziness for a deeper vee when a hull just goes above 30 knots in top speed mode. Which will only be done very few times. I think Hargraves old Hatteras hulls which are quite flat aft about 10 degrees are still among the best for shaft driven boats especially when it comes to head seas in Force 5 above....

I had a friend which owned an Azimut 58 Full which has a Bernard Olenski hull with 18 degrees deadrise and he changed to a Hatteras 60 Convertible 11 degrees deadrise aft and he said the ride in head seas in Force 6 Mistral from Rome to Sardegna was incomparable with the Hatt doing more speed and zero slamming....
Deep vees 20 deg deadrise plus are made for speed over 50 knots IMO after this a more warped design is usually more effective.

 

[Pinnacle]

£99.99 for a very cheap digital camera Seriously, since this busted leg all my pics have been taken with a cheap n cheerful camera. It's hard to hold the bigger Canon "proper" camera when balancing on crutches. Normal photography service will be resumed soon I hope

Given the circumstances.....I think we can make a few allowances!!

 

[jfm]

Joinery. I dont know about the new SLs 2007 onwards but the old ones had very little veneer wood in them, meaning all wood was solid. Fitting was usually as good as it can get.

PY, with respect that's a common misconception. Solid is not better than veneer. Solid is fine for machined sections (typically up to say 50mm-100mm section width) but otherwise veneer is simply better. Go and buy a bureau from Viscount Linley for £25,000 and I can ssure you absolutely the top is made from veneered MDF, which exactly as it should be

I'll happily agree to differ on fitting. SLs (which do have many veneered panels, as they should be) that I have inspected closely have joints that don't quite fit, and little bits where the saw blade has chipped the veneer off.

If you rank the UK builders, currently on say 2008-9-10-11 builds, Princess (even on 72/78) make corner joints with veneered board by overlapping the panels then gluing on an L section wood strip to cover the end grain. You can easily see this on their website eg the box bases under the beds. Sunseeker run a 1mm bead of silicone across virtually all wood joints, including even on the mitres at the top of door frames, and I mean on their 34m stuff not just 50 footers. Fairline make their boxes from veneered panels with corners made from solid wood machined with rebates into which the panels fit, and their cutting is better (more accurate and no rough chips) than SL's, and of course they don't cover the joints with silicone. The Targa 47 is great but if you look closely at a Sq78 you'll see it is substantially better. BTW, on this general subject, I accept that I am a member of the Jimmy-le-Builder OCD detail-merchant club and that lots of (more sensible) people don't care about this stuff and look for other features when buying a boat

I actually just saw a new 72 with an owner who requested a close stern with opening bathing platform for his 72 similar to the 62. I dont think many builder can go as far making this modification.

Are you really saying SL have built a 72 with a 62-style fold-down transom on a customer request? And you have actually seen it? That is serious customisation if they have done it. Respect to them!

 

[jfm]

Incidentally, and I'm sorry if I sound like a broken record on dashboard design, here is the current SL72 upper helm dash. Want to MARPA a target on the radar on a nigh passage? Right, so you get up off your seat (well, a slab of foam covered in white pvc), lean forward, lift up a perspex lid, then alter the settings on Raymarine's smallest plotter, the E80. FFS! It's like buying a BMW (only this boat costs 40x an M5) and finding that the instrument panel has been bought in from Skoda and installed on the rear parcel shelf

Absolutely beautiful steering wheel though

 

[aquapower]

Incidentally, and I'm sorry if I sound like a broken record on dashboard design, here is the current SL72 upper helm dash. Want to MARPA a target on the radar on a nigh passage? Right, so you get up off your seat (well, a slab of foam covered in white pvc), lean forward, lift up a perspex lid, then alter the settings on Raymarine's smallest plotter, the E80. FFS! It's like buying a BMW (only this boat costs 40x an M5) and finding that the instrument panel has been bought in from Skoda and installed on the rear parcel shelf

Absolutely beautiful steering wheel though

Looks nowhere near as good as your new upper helm ;-)

 

[jfm]

Looks nowhere near as good as your new upper helm ;-)

Ha! You are an insider! That thing taking shape in Norfolk will look the biz when fully dressed. I visited Brundall on Tuesday to take a look. I also took a full size cardboard mock up to Fairline yesterday to put on a Sq78, to make doubly sure the sizing is ok (when you see it on John's work bench you can worry it is too high) and I'm glad to say it fits perfectly. When finished it'll have dashboard facing panels (being made by Axon), 2 x 15inch Garmin screens, and a new style Isotta steering wheel.

If you have any updated pics (it might have been sprayed by now?) feel free to post them or email them to me. And thanks for the introduction to the great team there in Brundall (Robin and John)

 

[aquapower]

If you have any updated pics (it might have been sprayed by now?) feel free to post them or email them to me.

Have got loads of pictures for you, yes it has now had the first spray and been rubbed down so would think not far off next spray, will get some pictures to you over the weekend.

Can see exactly why you wanted changes as I never find chart plotters easy to read or operate when in the near horizontal position, and think this would have been a big problem in the med sun. I think you will find fairline will want to use your mould tools again in the future.

 

[David of Essex]

JFM, how do you sleep at nights with that amount of excitement going on. When I was just looking at buying a boat, was one excited trip for me and a few times getting up in the night making notes. The amount of experience that you have gained over the years has helped you cope better than most, but you still sound just as enthusiastic as a beginner. Good on you.
David

 

[MapisM]

Hi MapisM. I'd be interested in more specific details of what you liked on the SL.

Hi J, nice to see your new ship out of the mould.
It's extremely difficult to judge from the pics alone, but for what can be seen the finishing looks impressively shiny and smooth!

Before answering your question, I must start with a caveat: I've never seen a FL78 in flesh. I saw some FLs - Targas, Phantoms and Squaddies, but not a 78. Otoh, when I said that SL build is impressive, I did have also some comparably big boats of other brands in mind.

Now, re.the specific details I liked, actually they're not directly comparable to those which you mention - joinery execution and fit, joints, etc. - because they're not the ones which catch my attention on a boat.
I'm not saying they're not important, just that I tend to look at other things first. What I'm mostly interested in are the boat structure (btw, did you get those plugs of the stabs holes yet? I for one would be interested to see some pics), the equipments and their installation, the plumbing and wiring, the strength and stiffness of all components - this sort of things.
And in this respect, SL is imho in another league compared to any FL I've seen so far - with the above caveat, obviously.
On a SL, you can really feel the solidity of each and every detail onboard.
Starting from the passerelle: if you walked on some of them, you can actually distinguish between the inherent flexibility of the passerelle itself (which is not nice, but normal), and the flexibility due to the boat transom where it's attached (which is not nice, period).
And as you surely know even better than myself, there is indeed some flexibility also on the transom in the Sq58, for instance. It's not too bad actually - probably less than most competitors, but it's there.
Besides, if you grab any rails, or the frame of the f/b windscreen, you can easily flex them with just one hand on a FL.
If you touch the rails or the windscreen of a SL, they feel like you could use them as cleats!
But what really impressed me is the e/r. The quality of all components used for plumbing and wiring, and their accurate installation, are more similar to what I've seen in industrial plants rated for hazardous chemicals, than to what can normally be found in pleasure boats.

For these reasons, I must disagree with you on the lazy engineering behind those 5T difference between the SL72 and the SL78. Solid wood surely is heavier than veneer, but for how much can that count? I bet not more than 3 or 4 hundreds kg for the whole boat (probably less). The rest is elsewhere.
And since GRP, s/s fittings, pipes, wires, doors, windows, etc. are all expensive materials, I frankly doubt that SL does not have engineers capable to get rid of some of them and save production costs, if they would think that they don't affect the quality of the final product.

Btw, re. solid wood vs. veneer, you reminded me that we already had an interesting debate on this subject in this old thread, which I managed to find in spite of the (still) lousy forum search engine.
Now, in my view, this is a sort of an "each to their own" thing.
I mean, you're correct when you say that veneered MDF (or also HDF, for that matter) is better for panels, but you are "only" technically correct, based on the build technologies nowadays available.
Otoh, as the better architects know perfectly, better engineering does not always mean an improvement of human perception/experience.
A friend of mine has an original "fratino" table in his country house (I think it's called "refectory" table in English). Late 17th century, solid walnut, roughly 13' long, 3' wide, 3" thick. Of course it's not perfectly straight, but trust me, its feeling alone can improve anything you eat or drink on it.
And that's without even starting to talk about value. Which I don't know in detail, except that he refused an offer whose order of magnitude would make that Viscount Linley bureau appear like Ikea furniture in comparison. Not to mention that probably it will have been trashed in 40 years, let alone four centuries...!

Re. the f/b design of SL, I agree with you. There's room for improvement, to say the least.
Then again, how often did you helm from the f/b and had to MARPA a target on the radar on a night passage?!?
On my f/b, I only have the engines instruments, a sounder and the a/p repeater, and never felt the need for anything else, because imho the f/b helm station is strictly meant for wandering around in glorious weather, period.
I know that many boaters feel more comfortable helming from upstairs also in the worst conditions, but that's either due to lack of confidence or (most often) to poor visibility from the main helm station. Which on SL is stunning, btw.

I think you're correct re. big hull windows, I've never seen any on a SL - as also PY confirms.
That's actually another thing I like though, because I've always thought that they are useless, if not dangerous.
And very unpractical to clean, anyway.
But that's me - obviously most boaters like them, and of course I'm not pretending that I'm right and they're all wrong...
Otoh, the fact that SL doesn't offer them makes me think that I can't be totally wrong, either. Surely no rocket science is required to build them, so there must be some other reasons why SL (and other very respectable builders) don't go that route.