Boat in build pics (Squadron 78)

[Latestarter1]

Thanks. So it's not camshaft driven the way I said; it's hydraulically driven, independent of the camshaft. Clever stuff, and amazing they can make kit like that so reliable. Respect to the engineers.

Interestingly it says the fuel is taken through a "heater bowl". So after all the above thread about cooling the fuel, it turns out they want to heat it up. I'm well confused now! Help, Latestarter1 !

Separately Tom, Fairline told me today the flybridge dash is all installed on the boat with the instruments and panels and looks the biz. I've asked them for a pic and will post on here when I get it.

jfm,

Re your question on heater bowl makes no sense to me, however statement being reviewed by CAT distributor on US West Coast who is looking after a bunch of the them in tournament fishing boats.

As to fuel system C32 uses HUEI but MUEI, God I hate all the CAT BS, good old plain and simple unit injectors. HUEI is technically real ugly, MUEI is simple unit injector system, exept unit injectors far from simple, out of Lucas Delphi in UK, assembled by CAT in Preoria.

 

[jfm]

jfm,

Re your question on heater bowl makes no sense to me, however statement being reviewed by CAT distributor on US West Coast who is looking after a bunch of the them in tournament fishing boats.

As to fuel system C32 uses HUEI but MUEI, God I hate all the CAT BS, good old plain and simple unit injectors. HUEI is technically real ugly, MUEI is simple unit injector system, exept unit injectors far from simple, out of Lucas Delphi in UK, assembled by CAT in Preoria.

Thanks LS
Ref heater bowl, I was referring to the fact some people had suggested they want to cool their fuel, and then it turns out the Cat fuel is apparently heated. In which case, not much point in cooling it (other than to avoid having zillions of joules of heat in the tanks, which is a valid reason). No worries anyway; we've done fuel temperature to death

Ref injectors I assume you meant not HUEI but MUEI in C32 non ACERT? In which case fine, I'm very happy with mechanical unit injectors thwacked by the camshaft

My plan is to be very nice to these motors, so repairs/rebuilds of MUEI and other over-complicated Cat parts don't happen. At least not in my ownership It won't be difficult because most times they'll be developing 900hp at 1600rpm rather than 1500hp at 2300rpm, approx, at my crusing speeds

 

[MapisM]

As to fuel system C32 uses HUEI but MUEI, God I hate all the CAT BS, good old plain and simple unit injectors. HUEI is technically real ugly, MUEI is simple unit injector system, exept unit injectors far from simple, out of Lucas Delphi in UK, assembled by CAT in Preoria.

If - as also jfm understood - you mean that the C32 uses MUEI and not HUEI, according to a source which I consider highly reliable, the marine C32 indeed used HUEI in the non ACERT version. They "returned" to the simpler MUEI in the latest C32 ACERT, though as I'm told the HUEI of the non ACERT C32 were highly reliable and effective, and they were abandoned mainly for cost reduction reasons.

 

[rafiki_]

Ummmm. This is getting a bit beyond my experience, which is with light duty (car) powertrains, not heavy duty, although I do have some contacts at Ricardo in Shoreham, who "know about these things". Even with unit injectors we used to cool the fuel returning to the fuel tank, because under arduous conditions, the bulk tank temp kept increasing. Clearly your bulk fuel is very substantial unless running low, but hot fuel in any case is not a great idea. We liked to keep it beow 60C due to expansion/fuel lines/ seals/carbon emissions. Just good engineering practice really.

Thanks Rafiki. The Cat C32s on my boat are not common rail. They have camshaft driven unit injectors iirc. I don't know, but that might heat the fuel less than common rail systems?

In addition, my default valve setting is that engines draw fuel from a 1500litre keel tank and return to engine room 6000litre tanks. The bottom of the engine room tanks is roughly level with top of keel tank, but the keel tank is a few metres further forward in the boat and connected to the engine room tanks by a balance pipe. I reckon (but tell me if you disagree) the hot returned fuel will stay in the engine room tanks and the engine will always draw cold fuel from the keel tank. There will be no appreciable mixing of hot and cold fuel by sloshing around/brownian motion, because the balance pipe is such a big restrictor.

Om a more normal boat with just twin fuel tanks and a balance pipe, it would be better I think to have both engines draw from one tank and both return to the other, and leave the balance pipe open. The hot/cold fuel would never mix appreciably via the balance pipe. The engines would always be drawing cold fuel. OK, if you use all your fuel in one long 15hour trip you'd eventually have to draw the hot fuel into the engines, but for most normal day cruising you wouldn't. Whaddya reckon?

 

[Latestarter1]

If - as also jfm understood - you mean that the C32 uses MUEI and not HUEI, according to a source which I consider highly reliable, the marine C32 indeed used HUEI in the non ACERT version. They "returned" to the simpler MUEI in the latest C32 ACERT, though as I'm told the HUEI of the non ACERT C32 were highly reliable and effective, and they were abandoned mainly for cost reduction reasons.

Sorry guys apologies for the confusion, usual case of fingers working faster than booze addled brain!

I have technical stuff on on C32 and C32 Acert both engines use the same Lucas Delphi derived unit injector which has proved to be, as you put it 'highly reliable' and given the stupid label MUEI. In fact the big ugly HUEI injector will not fit into four valve cylinder heads because of its bulk. As you may have gathered I have zero time for the HUEI concept. Rest easy.

I cut and pasted jfm comment re; fuel heater to my CAT distributor pal in US, his reply was 'never heard of such a thing'. Can I have full context of the statement and I will try and understand it.

As to fuel temperature most modern marine engines have fuel coolers, without high fuel return volume of hot fuel gets reurned to the tank. The the injector only uses a tiny amount of the fuel it is supplied, much of the fuel goes into cooling the injector, then back to the tank. The hotter the fuel the the greater the loss density, so power output drops. Without fuel coolers one would start a days boating with significanty more power than when volume of return fuel has heated the whole tank up hence fuel coolers.

CAT take marine power outputs very seriously, spec sheets are 100% honest. European manufacturers tend to sign off engines at plus or MINUS 5%. CAT used to have a rule of only nominal, plus 5% anything less was rejected. Such a big power output spread is less common now we have electronic engines. The words on a CAT spec sheet are full of marketing BS, the actual numbers you can take to the bank.

 

[MapisM]

The hotter the fuel the the greater the loss density, so power output drops. Without fuel coolers one would start a days boating with significanty more power than when volume of return fuel has heated the whole tank up hence fuel coolers.

Very interesting, thanks.
That's pretty much what that SeaTek guy told me when I decided to fit coolers on my boat (aside as I said from tanks building up heat, which was actually my main concern). Actually, he also specified - and that's the reason why I previously said "up to a point" - that below a certain temperature there are other problems with diesel. That's why I wasn't so surprised to hear also about heaters. Boat engines are supposed to run also in very cold climates, after all.

Re. the C32 injectors, are you sure that they are the same between ACERT and non ACERT?
What I understood from a Cat engineer is that the non ACERT 1572 bhp version used (as he literally said - he neither mentioned HUEI nor MUEI) high pressure oil actuated, electronically controlled injectors.
Otoh, the C32 ACERT (in all its flavours) has a different (double) distribution system, driving mechanically actuated, electronically controlled injectors.
He seemed pretty sure of his stuff, but then again, people do make mistake, so what do I know?

 

[Latestarter1]

Very interesting, thanks.
That's pretty much what that SeaTek guy told me when I decided to fit coolers on my boat (aside as I said from tanks building up heat, which was actually my main concern). Actually, he also specified - and that's the reason why I previously said "up to a point" - that below a certain temperature there are other problems with diesel. That's why I wasn't so surprised to hear also about heaters. Boat engines are supposed to run also in very cold climates, after all.

Re. the C32 injectors, are you sure that they are the same between ACERT and non ACERT?
What I understood from a Cat engineer is that the non ACERT 1572 bhp version used (as he literally said - he neither mentioned HUEI nor MUEI) high pressure oil actuated, electronically controlled injectors.
Otoh, the C32 ACERT (in all its flavours) has a different (double) distribution system, driving mechanically actuated, electronically controlled injectors.
He seemed pretty sure of his stuff, but then again, people do make mistake, so what do I know?

ACERT is to many technical people including senior US EPA guys a lot of 'smoke and windows'. Having looked at the few difinitive technical papers on ACERT it is all about very large amounts of excess air and the modification of valve events to produce internal exhaust gas recirculation to reduce NOx. Lucas Delpi injectors can produce more individual injection events if required than equivalent Bosch unit injectors, therefore I would not be surprised to find that the ACERT version of the engines using this feature of the injectors.

As to any potential problems which concern mjf he will have none!

CAT like other US manufacturers have very strict engine installation guidelines, unless the builder follows guidelines TO THE LETTER the CAT distributor technician will not put pen to paper and sign off the engine installation and issue warranty. Nothing the builder does is taken on the nod so to speak. Which is great insurance for the owner.

 

[petem]

In which case, not much point in cooling it (other than to avoid having zillions of joules of heat in the tanks, which is a valid reason).

If you ran for 10 hours per day say for 5 days running is it possible that the fuel would get hot (100 degrees F plus)? A **** comparison but we have a 1000 litre hot tub and that will heat to 100 Degrees F after 20 odd hours and takes days to cool down again. A 5000 litre tank in a nice cozy enclosed compartment will take a days / weeks to cool.

I guess that your current boat will give some indications of the liklehood of this?

Pete

 

[jfm]

unless the builder follows guidelines TO THE LETTER the CAT distributor technician will not put pen to paper and sign off the engine installation and issue warranty. Nothing the builder does is taken on the nod so to speak. Which is great insurance for the owner.

That rings true becuase AFAIK Cat technicians will go to sea on my boat for trials before sign off.

Incidentally my boat is ahead of schedule and is now scheduled to leave factory 2/12/10, and be put in the water at ipswich, and will make it to the London Boat Show

 

[jfm]

I guess that your current boat will give some indications of the liklehood of this?

I've never collected any data Pete. After a long days run the engines are hot and so is the fuel, but I don't know the temps. Too hot to be in there more than 5 mins. By the next morning however after a moderate or cool night the engine room has cooled down to barely above ambient. I don't know the relative temperatures and amounts of heat energy in the engines and gensets versus the fuel tanks though, and therefore how much fuel coolers would improve this aspect. In the new boat I can kinda airco the engine room by running the crew/utility airco on max and leaving the ER door open, but I suspect the joules/hour that the airco handler can shift isn't much compared with the excess joules of heat sitting in the engines and the fuel.

 

[rafiki_]

Look forward to seeing it there!!!

That rings true becuase AFAIK Cat technicians will go to sea on my boat for trials before sign off.

Incidentally my boat is ahead of schedule and is now scheduled to leave factory 2/12/10, and be put in the water at ipswich, and will make it to the London Boat Show

 

[MapisM]

ACERT is to many technical people including senior US EPA guys a lot of 'smoke and windows'. Having looked at the few difinitive technical papers on ACERT it is all about very large amounts of excess air and the modification of valve events to produce internal exhaust gas recirculation to reduce NOx.

Mmmm.... Sorry LS1 and EPA seniors, but saying that ACERT is a lot of smoke and windows requires some proper technical justifications to be considered as a sound opinion, I reckon.

Aside from still being interested to hear from you about my previous question, if you have seen the technical papers maybe you can explain us why the ACERT version of C32 is 800 lbs heavier than the non-ACERT. I don't think it takes that much iron to just modify exhaust gas recirculation, considering also that afaik there is no VVT in the current version of C32 ACERT.

I agree with the rest of your post, fwiw.

 

[MapisM]

If you ran for 10 hours per day say for 5 days running is it possible that the fuel would get hot (100 degrees F plus)?

You must be joking. After 10 hours, and just on the first day, if you consider 120F you're probably still underestimating it!
As I said, I couldn't touch my tanks for more than a second after 8 hours, and my hands are rather resistant to hot.
100F+ is the temperature I'm using for my jacuzzi...!

 

[MapisM]

Re. the C32 injectors, are you sure that they are the same between ACERT and non ACERT?

Apologies for quoting myself, but what LS1 said made me even more curious and - aside from what I've already been told - I had to look around a bit and see what I could find.
There aren't many references on this topic unfortunately, but the few I found all seem to agree that C32 non ACERT has HEUI (this being just one among other similar webpages).
Otoh, it's pretty evident that C32 ACERT has MEUI: page 2 shows also a pic of what is clearly a mechanical injector.

 

[aquapower]

Apologies for quoting myself, but what LS1 said made me even more curious and - aside from what I've already been told - I had to look around a bit and see what I could find.
There aren't many references on this topic unfortunately, but the few I found all seem to agree that C32 non ACERT has HEUI (this being just one among other similar webpages).
Otoh, it's pretty evident that C32 ACERT has MEUI: page 2 shows also a pic of what is clearly a mechanical injector.

Thats what I read from the spec sheet when I posted the link to the HUEI info, and as I am aware unless I have misread something is that non acerts are being fitted in this case?

 

[jfm]

Quick update for anyone still following the plot. I dropped by the factory today to see the dash. A few pics are below. There is lots of progress on all fronts though it is hard to get any good photos and it still very much looks like a boat half built, which I suppose it is. It is scheduled to leave factory beginning of December so it’s gotta be finished by then, which they’re comfortable it will be. I’m really pleased with everything they’ve done so far and the build is going very well. The build quality is visibly very high and the engineer looking after the project generally and the customisations in particular is as helpful and creative, Mr Can-Do, as ever. So I’m still enjoying the project.

General view

Here is galley, with mock up of the stairs to check stairs ergonomics

Below is saloon looking aft

Saloon looking forward

Cabin detail showing a gold material selected for the window panels

Below is main electrical control panel, all live now

Below is aft flybridge stairs. This is a custom design with rectangular steps, the first Sq78 they’ve done like this. Normally they have TV screen shaped steps, which I didn’t like

Finally here is the flybridge dash. I’m very pleased with this. It’s my personal view of how a dash should be which means near vertical screens that you can reach without leaning forward, and the steering wheel parked off to the side so the navigator can sit in front of the screen cluster and the helmsman can keep out of his way (though, the helmsman can see the screens too). Hours of my time (mock ups and drawings) have gone into this (plus a lot of £££), followed by weeks of Broom Boat’s time making the plug and mould tool, and then Axon have made custom panels, and the Fairline team have done a one-off assembly, so it’s very pleasing to see it turn out so nice. The bowthruster control is the new proportional one with “hold” function, as featured in the latest MBY. Fairline have done a perfect job on the assembly, down to getting Carlingswitch actuators in matching beige-silver colour and custom engraved with the function of the switches. They have still got a Perspex lip windscreen to make for the top edge. Eagle-eyed viewers will note that gauges cluster behind the steering wheel is 50mm too far to the right. The panel maker (not Fairline) didn’t follow the drawing but the panel has been remade and will be replaced in next few days, so gauges will align with steering wheel

 

[iangrant]

Very, very

Impressive.

Really well laid out dash that! You'll certainly have enough to scan around with that lot attached, thought about the configuration for the displays?

Ian

 

[EME]

Following ?? I get withdrawal symptoms if there isn't at least one of your posts at least once a week.

Could cost you a fortune if you break-a-leg again and need a new project next year !

The control panel looks stunning. I hadn't got the kitchen layout from previous renders --- did I see 'Gold' on the window panels?

 

[jfm]

thought about the configuration for the displays?

Nope! In truth there will be too much information, if anything. But it's a toy, so that's fine. I like chart plotter and radar on a whole screen each, and will have the engine data, DTW/ TTG/Depth/SOG/Fuel type data on the little screens.

Downstairs dash has the same screencount, ie 2x big screens and 4x small, though one of the big screens i a 7 incher as there wasn't room for a pair of 15inches like in the above pics.

Stabiliser control is downstiars only as they don't do a dual station control set for the stabs (yet). If they bring one out later I've left room for it under the two banks of Carlingswitches on port side of fly dash (the round Seafire control thingy can be moved)

 

[jfm]

The control panel looks stunning. I hadn't got the kitchen layout from previous renders --- did I see 'Gold' on the window panels?

Kitchen general layout rendering is below. Yup, that's gold. My (highly capricious!) "rule" is no gold metal (door furniture, taps, etc). But gold fabrics and soft furnishings are ok.