Boat in build pics (Squadron 78)

[jfm]

Always amuses me how the washing machine goes in slightly after the engines. Will there be space to swap it if it doesn't work?

Nope, there generally isn't easy swapability on boats. None of the boat's doors will take a washing machine 600x600x850 approx. To swap, you have to dismantle the machine. Twas the same when I installed a tumble drier in my last Sq58. I dismantled it, put the parts in the utility room, then quickly rebuilt it before I forgot. I only had 4 self tappers and one bearing left over so was quite pleased with myself

 

[jfm]

Very nice update. The stab fin actuator looks like it has a very low profile in its bolted position, very neat installation. Looking at the stab shaft length, I imagine the locking nut is recessed into the fin some way? Would be interested to know the size (sqm) of the fins specified?

The fins are about 600mm high and 1.2m long, approx. The nuts are therefore about 1/2 way up the fin, and there is a removeable bit of fin to expose the nut as MapisM said. I think this is pretty normal across all stab manufacturers. The shaft is 60mm dia iirc

(BTW I owe you an email on tenders. Just cogitating on Novurania 400dl £20k delivered and Avon 400dl £12k both with Yam50. I prefer the Novu but the 8k seems a steep premium. Give me a few more days and I'll revert!)

 

[jfm]

With all this picture evidence and Fairline aware of the post it HAS to be the best Fairline ever built...

I think that's official Richard. They have confirmed this is the most customised and most customer involved s78 they have ever built, and hence the best boat built in the history of the company. Not for long of course; another customer will come along soon and ask for "jfm's spec plus extras" in the near future Mind you, I OWN the flybridge dashboard mould so I don't have to let people copy that, but probably would

 

[jfm]

Actually, I think your comment goes deeper.
It is as much Fairline showing a trust in the new owner as their own confidence to build a good boat.
They know jfm well and know that he will "work with them" to produce a satisfactory conclusion.
There are a lot of owners out there that simply say "fix it" to the builder and then simple problems just escalate.
Knowing that the owner will get involved with problems helps no end IMO.
I know its a lot of money but the partnership between the buyer and the builder is paramount in producing a good reliable boat.
Boats of this complexity ALWAYS have something go wrong - its the ability to fix it that matters and the owner/builder relationship is the most important factor. IMHO

You are exactly right Hurricane. It's a partnership. I am amazed how people buy a boat of this complexity and upwards and get stroppy when they have warranty issues. It is not at all like buying a £100k BMW where you just throw the keys to the dealer when something goes wrong and yell "fix it". Behaving like that is ridiculous with a large boat. This is more like buying a very complex house, for want of a better analogy. You have to understand things will misfire and the smart course of action is to work with the builder to fix things constructively, not lose your rag. You'll get mnuch more owner satisfaction staying friends with the builder and being understnading about glitches

I have an understnading with Essex boatyards that for small warrnatly glitches they post me the parts and I fix it. I don't ask them to fly a repair man out to France or pay labour unless the problem is massive. We've both stuck to this unwritten gentlemen's deal for a while and it makes our lives easier and is reflected in the boat price they give me (for awkward customers they have to make a reserve of £25k or whatever for warranty). Over the years they have sent me several jiffy bags of parts and I fit them in my own time or pay a fixer guy out of my own pocket, but when I really needed big help (a new windscreen needed fitting) they sent a crate of parts and flew 3 repair guys to the Med on less than a weeks notice. That's the sort of dealer/builder relationship I want, not a "BMW warranty" type arrangement

 

[jfm]

I guess most buyers would want as close an involvement with their build as jfm has but many builders wouldn't allow it. Whilst it is laudable that Fairline are happy to work with jfm on every detail, it must cost them money in terms of extra design hours and delayed production. I don't know but maybe Fairline have costed this into the price of the Sq78? Most production boatbuilders wont want to see the customer between the day he places the order and the day he takes delivery

My mods are not costing them money Mike: I agreed a base price for the boat and then I'm paying (the price of a 40 foot flybridge) for all the customisation. Production delays are not an issue on the sq78 line becuase it doesn't run as tightly time-waise as a smaller boat production line.

I think they are very happy for customer involvement, generally. On this type of build it is necessary. Eg they have never done fin stabs before, but I asked for them and we have worked together on all the details. I am taking risk on these - if they don't work I can hardly yell at Fairline for giving me a duff spec because I specced them. They are instead showing me all the details of the install and asking me "what do you think?" and I very much am giving them my opinions and the solutions we're agreeing are a mix of my/their ideas. I have sent them perhaps 50 drawings of how I'm asking them to make things, for example, and the responses I get are full engagement, not "oh heck it's another email from jfm" (ok, they could be saying that behind my back but I don't think they are. They enjoy the custom stuff)

 

[PowerYachtBlog]

What will you do if the stabs want work well as planned JFM? Do you have a back up plan to remold the spray rails, and remove the tabs?

I sincerly hope this will not be the case.

 

[MapisM]

The fins are about 600mm high and 1.2m long, approx.

Ops, in this case they must be the 0.70 sqm fins, not the 1.0 sqm I mentioned in my reply to MYAG.
That's what I assumed based on the previous measures in your post #91, which I noticed because they seemed really huge, even for such ship.
...not that the 0.70 sqm fin is small, of course!

 

[MapisM]

What will you do if the stabs that work well as planned JFM?

I would happily bet that they will, PY.
I've seen awful retrofitting of fin stabs, and even those did their job nicely.
Fin stabs are - generally speaking - so effective in stabilising a boat that even the worst installation is still effective.
And this specific installation is obviously carefully studied!

The only things I'd be curious to hear from jfm, but it'll take a while to know, are:
- how much the drag affects top speed and consumption;
- the effectiveness at zero speed on a full planing hull;
- the noise in mid cabin when operating at zero speed.

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

My mods are not costing them money Mike: I agreed a base price for the boat and then I'm paying (the price of a 40 foot flybridge) for all the customisation. Production delays are not an issue on the sq78 line becuase it doesn't run as tightly time-waise as a smaller boat production line.

I think they are very happy for customer involvement, generally. On this type of build it is necessary. Eg they have never done fin stabs before, but I asked for them and we have worked together on all the details. I am taking risk on these - if they don't work I can hardly yell at Fairline for giving me a duff spec because I specced them. They are instead showing me all the details of the install and asking me "what do you think?" and I very much am giving them my opinions and the solutions we're agreeing are a mix of my/their ideas. I have sent them perhaps 50 drawings of how I'm asking them to make things, for example, and the responses I get are full engagement, not "oh heck it's another email from jfm" (ok, they could be saying that behind my back but I don't think they are. They enjoy the custom stuff)

OK so you're paying for the ability to customise the boat which should allow you to get their full attention during the build process. Not sure other owners will be happy to pay the price of a 40 footer for this privilege though

 

[petem]

When we bought our boat (11 years ago) Fairline were happy to show us round the factory whilst it was being built. To be honest this was more of a tour than the genuine interaction.

JFM, are you actually discussing changes or just watching what they are doing?

Pete

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

You are exactly right Hurricane. It's a partnership. I am amazed how people buy a boat of this complexity and upwards and get stroppy when they have warranty issues. It is not at all like buying a £100k BMW where you just throw the keys to the dealer when something goes wrong and yell "fix it". Behaving like that is ridiculous with a large boat. This is more like buying a very complex house, for want of a better analogy. You have to understand things will misfire and the smart course of action is to work with the builder to fix things constructively, not lose your rag. You'll get mnuch more owner satisfaction staying friends with the builder and being understnading about glitches

I have an understnading with Essex boatyards that for small warrnatly glitches they post me the parts and I fix it. I don't ask them to fly a repair man out to France or pay labour unless the problem is massive. We've both stuck to this unwritten gentlemen's deal for a while and it makes our lives easier and is reflected in the boat price they give me (for awkward customers they have to make a reserve of £25k or whatever for warranty). Over the years they have sent me several jiffy bags of parts and I fit them in my own time or pay a fixer guy out of my own pocket, but when I really needed big help (a new windscreen needed fitting) they sent a crate of parts and flew 3 repair guys to the Med on less than a weeks notice. That's the sort of dealer/builder relationship I want, not a "BMW warranty" type arrangement

Mmm. I wish I had customers like you In my line of business, normally when one of the machines we sell breaks down, we get an abusive phone call, e-mail and letter with overblown claim for lost production, in pretty short order! I have take issue with you, though. A boat is not a complex machine. Its just a collection of fairly low tech components in a plastic tub and, as such, it should work 100% straight out of the box.
The problem is not that boats are complex; its that boat building is a cottage industry and none of the manufacturers have sufficient resources to put into R & D, quality control and testing such that boats do work straight out of the box. It's the customer that effectively ends up doing the testing and quality control function.
I have to say that your attitude to warranty issues is probably realistic and basically you are recognising the fact that the boat building industry is simply not capable of producing fault free products on a consistent basis

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

I dont think you are right on this, Mike.

Although we didnt have the same involvement that jfm has on his Squaddie, we visited our boat in build several times. Each time, they were very happy to meet us and said that we could come along as much as we wanted. This feeling extended right down to the factory floor where the guys actually doing the building seemed keen to "show off" their work. In fact, I even took djefabs from this forum along one time - I knew that he would enjoy the visit and would be able to afford the time off work.

Even though our boat was already part built and in the production line when we ordered her, I'm sure that Princess would welcome anyone to the factory at any time to see their boat's progress.

From what I've heard, Sunseeker are the same.

Fair enough, Mike. I think maybe the buyer of a £1m+ boat probably gets a different level of treatment to a punter spending a couple of hundred '000s and thats as it should be. I had a friend who bought a new Princess (about 40ft if memory serves) a few years ago and the Swanwick sales office discouraged him from visiting the factory, even to take delivery of the boat. The first time he was allowed to see his boat was when it turned up at Moodys. Mind you, it was a while back and maybe all the boat builders have been to charm school since

 

[Hurricane]

Fair enough, Mike. I think maybe the buyer of a £1m+ boat probably gets a different level of treatment to a punter spending a couple of hundred '000s and thats as it should be. I had a friend who bought a new Princess (about 40ft if memory serves) a few years ago and the Swanwick sales office discouraged him from visiting the factory, even to take delivery of the boat. The first time he was allowed to see his boat was when it turned up at Moodys. Mind you, it was a while back and maybe all the boat builders have been to charm school since

Not quite the same as watching your boat being built but you may remember that Jimmy_the_Builder bought a P42 at the same time that we bought ours.

He was treated to a tour of the factory as a matter of course and I'm sure he enjoyed the experience. I remember him and his SWMBO popping into to us for lunch on the way down to Plymouth.

I think your friend must have got the wrong end of the stick. Princess, like most builders, love showing off their facilities. Our initial visit included a tour of the "off site" ancillary workshops where the cabinets and stainless steel units are fabricated. I've got loads of pics that I could post but this isn't my thread.

 

[petem]

In the old days, BA Peters used to escort you around the F'line factory. I remember our dealer (Marine Sales) used to call it the Fairline Museum!

 

[MYAG]

Ops, in this case they must be the 0.70 sqm fins, not the 1.0 sqm I mentioned in my reply to MYAG.
That's what I assumed based on the previous measures in your post #91, which I noticed because they seemed really huge, even for such ship.
...not that the 0.70 sqm fin is small, of course!

0.7 sqm is I think about right for a fast hull boat of this displacement.

 

[MYAG]

I would happily bet that they will, PY.
I've seen awful retrofitting of fin stabs, and even those did their job nicely.
Fin stabs are - generally speaking - so effective in stabilising a boat that even the worst installation is still effective.
And this specific installation is obviously carefully studied!

The only things I'd be curious to hear from jfm, but it'll take a while to know, are:
- how much the drag affects top speed and consumption;
- the effectiveness at zero speed on a full planing hull;
- the noise in mid cabin when operating at zero speed.

I my experience with stabs, there might be a 1 kt loss if you are unlucky, the consumption will be negligible and even better in certain sea states on longish trips. The effectiveness at zero speed will depend largley on the period of the wave in tune with the natural period of the hull, at worst 30%, at best 99% roll reduction. The noise inside the boat can be minimal with good levels of insulation.

The real benefit comes from being able to stay out at anchor when nearly all the other planing boats have run back to the marina in the slightest of chop.

 

[MYAG]

From what I've heard, Sunseeker are the same.

Yes they are and very much encourage visits during the build of your boat . They will even fully document the build in pics for you on request.

 

[jimmy_the_builder]

Not quite the same as watching your boat being built but you may remember that Jimmy_the_Builder bought a P42 at the same time that we bought ours.

He was treated to a tour of the factory as a matter of course and I'm sure he enjoyed the experience. I remember him and his SWMBO popping into to us for lunch on the way down to Plymouth.

I think your friend must have got the wrong end of the stick. Princess, like most builders, love showing off their facilities. Our initial visit included a tour of the "off site" ancillary workshops where the cabinets and stainless steel units are fabricated. I've got loads of pics that I could post but this isn't my thread.

Yep, dead right, it really wasn't an issue. And when we were considering a new V-class Princess last year they took us back down to the factory a couple of times, on one occasion to get a peek at the then new V42HT - even before the press had seen it. I'd say that the Princess experience was outstanding in this regard.

Cheers
Jimmy

 

[MapisM]

I my experience with stabs, there might be a 1 kt loss if you are unlucky, the consumption will be negligible and even better in certain sea states on longish trips. The effectiveness at zero speed will depend largley on the period of the wave in tune with the natural period of the hull, at worst 30%, at best 99% roll reduction. The noise inside the boat can be minimal with good levels of insulation.

Mmmm.... Not to be disrespectful of your experience, but where does it come from exactly?
To my knowledge, there aren't many planing boat of this size equipped with fin stabs - happy to stand corrected, though.

Anyway, a loss of just 1kt at WOT would be an excellent result, because the max speed of the Sq78 is much higher if compared to other boats normally equipped with fin stabs. And not only the drag effect increases exponentially with the speed, but also the turbulences introduced could affect the props efficiency.
Years ago, the chief mechanic of SeaTek told me about a test made with their diesel engines installed on a F.B. racing hull, good for speeds around the 100mph mark.
The drag due to just a couple of water pickups, temporarily fitted astern to feed some coolers, was enough to loose 2 mph. Go figure what fins could have done to the performance of that boat...

Re. consumption, sorry, I didn't specify but I meant at P speeds, let's say from 16 kts or so all the way to WOT. I'm aware that at D speed the effect should be negligible, but I don't think so at speeds where the fins are unnecessary to stabilize the boat and keep a steady course, hence their only effect is to increase drag.

I agree re.the factors affecting the zero speed performance. My doubt is more on the different behaviour of a P hull against the other hulls typically equipped with fin stabs (either D or SD, heavier, keeled, etc.).

Re.the noise, well, if you're saying that a good insulation is better than a poor one I can't disagree of course...
The reason why I'm curious to hear about it is that I recently heard reports of a couple of installations, on a 85' and a 68'. In the first (where the actuators are located in the e/r), the hydraulic pistons movements are perceivable but not so annoying. In the latter (where they're located in the mid cabin area, as in jfm boat), the noise is bad enough to move to another cabin in search of some sleep, according to a person who heard them running with the engines turned off (as they normally are, when the stabs are used at rest).

 

[MYAG]

Mmmm.... Not to be disrespectful of your experience, but where does it come from exactly?
To my knowledge, there aren't many planing boat of this size equipped with fin stabs - happy to stand corrected, though.

Anyway, a loss of just 1kt at WOT would be an excellent result, because the max speed of the Sq78 is much higher if compared to other boats normally equipped with fin stabs. And not only the drag effect increases exponentially with the speed, but also the turbulences introduced could affect the props efficiency.
Years ago, the chief mechanic of SeaTek told me about a test made with their diesel engines installed on a F.B. racing hull, good for speeds around the 100mph mark.
The drag due to just a couple of water pickups, temporarily fitted astern to feed some coolers, was enough to loose 2 mph. Go figure what fins could have done to the performance of that boat...

Re. consumption, sorry, I didn't specify but I meant at P speeds, let's say from 16 kts or so all the way to WOT. I'm aware that at D speed the effect should be negligible, but I don't think so at speeds where the fins are unnecessary to stabilize the boat and keep a steady course, hence their only effect is to increase drag.

I agree re.the factors affecting the zero speed performance. My doubt is more on the different behaviour of a P hull against the other hulls typically equipped with fin stabs (either D or SD, heavier, keeled, etc.).

Re.the noise, well, if you're saying that a good insulation is better than a poor one I can't disagree of course...
The reason why I'm curious to hear about it is that I recently heard reports of a couple of installations, on a 85' and a 68'. In the first (where the actuators are located in the e/r), the hydraulic pistons movements are perceivable but not so annoying. In the latter (where they're located in the mid cabin area, as in jfm boat), the noise is bad enough to move to another cabin in search of some sleep, according to a person who heard them running with the engines turned off (as they normally are, when the stabs are used at rest).

Thats fine, its a fair question, not massive experience but 3 weeks on a s/s 82 yacht last year, after which I swore my next boat would have stabs. More recently, 2 different s/s 80 yachts during their sea trials, one of which I spent the whole day on board with the ABT engineers and experienced the commission and calibration of the system from start to finish, at anchor, at D and P speeds. The boats achieved their numbers and in 4 ft chop. I assumed the SQ78 would be comparable to the Y80 for this purpose? Why would it not?

I believe the beam on JFM's 78 would be sufficient to prevent fin wash/turbulence upsetting the water flow to the props. It certainly does on the Y80. I dont understand your drag comparison of the FB racing hull (stepped?) to the DV hull of the SQ78 or any other similar hull?

re: consumption, you are of course technically right for the conditions you describe, and if you were lucky enough to spend all your cruising time in those conditions, then yes, you would ultimately save some fuel w/o stabs fitted! But really, how much fuel? When I say "negligible", I mean in the context that you are burning over 600 lt/h in these boats at WOT anyway, personally, I wouldn't care or even be able to calculate the saving.

Not sure what your doubt is regarding the hulls? The fins for fast P hulls are specified much smaller than those needed for DP hulls of the same length in order to achieve similar results. This allows them to act faster and with higher speed creating more lift, countering the roll much earlier in the cycle. I have not compared them, but the guys from ABT said that DV planing hulls fitted with fin stabs worked better to control roll at zero speed than DP hulls but worked similarly when underway.

On the 82Y, I didnt experience the level of noise that made me want to change cabins. Yes you can hear the actuators operate, but its faint and no more annoying than a chilled a/c fan operating, or indeed the genny hum at night. s/s place either a sofa or a chest of drawers directly over the access to the actuator cover and fit dense foam pyramids to the underside and sides, similar to the material cladding an accoustic chamber. You could do more of course.

Overall, I have spent quite some time investigating the types of stabs out there, pro/cons and performance of different principles and brands. I was suitably impressed to invest in a 6 figure sum to have ABT TRAC STAR fins and thrusters specified on my new boat.