Boat Choice, Build Quality and Satisfaction

[siwhi]

I hesitate to kick off another round of the debate rehearsed here occasionally concerning boat choice dilemmas, but I am interested in the opinions of those who have switched from a Moody or Westerly of the 1980's (or similar) to a newer (post 2000) Beneteau or Jeanneau or Bavaria, especially from those that now liveaboard them. Specifically there are 2 questions I have concerning your sentiment and reflections having made the switch:

Do some of the design choices on the new boat start to irritate or do you find they are actually not a big deal?

Does the build quality start to impact use and enjoyment of the boat or do you tend to relax and live with the boat's foibles?

I should say that although we have a Moody at the moment (which in general I like a lot), we will be moving up to a considerably bigger boat within the next year in order to do an extended trip with the family (2 adults, 2 kids). We are therefore deciding in general terms between say a 2007 Beneteau around 45' and an older and often slightly smaller UK or Scandinavian boat. I have done a couple of long deliveries on newer Beneteaus and chartered a range of newer boats (Jeanneau, Hanse, Bavaria) and certain aspects of their design and build annoyed and surprised me. However we are starting to look at options and the last couple of Beneteaus we looked at this week got me wondering again. Huge plusses were the space and overall layout for living onboard, both below and in the cockpit, but the downsides were also very obvious.

So my (impossible to answer) question is for those who have made similar switches: would any feeling of frustration / concern / unease last or is it quickly forgotten post purchase and do the benefits (space, cockpit layout at anchor, newer hardware) easily make up for the shortcomings?

In terms of some of the design, materials and build choices, some examples of where I have been disappointed include:
Windlass underspecced for boat size
Lack of Gunwales
Running Rig and some deck hardware (from genoa track to blocks to bow roller) on the small side
Door handles and catches unfit for purpose
Locker openings, hasps, knobs, are poor design
Lack of fiddles on the tables
Rectangular doors
Limited hand holds, protruding hard or sharp surfaces (eg sink splash panel)
Creaky soles, etc
Very limited storage space
Very simple electric distribution panels (maybe that's a good thing?)
Very exposed cockpit with no handholds
Cabinets attached to the hull with just a couple of woodscrews

I could go on, but I expect many of you know what I mean. I know of course the specific boat condition, layout and equipment spec weigh heavily in any choice, but I'd like to take that out of the equation for the moment and focus on build quality satisfaction.

Thanks,

Simon

 

[jordanbasset]

Sorry Simon find it hard to answer that as your experience and mine of Bavs, Benny's and Jeaneaus are so out of kilter as to make a meaningful reply impossible.
Just some examples in relation to my old Bav 38

Running Rig and some deck hardware (from genoa track to blocks to bow roller) on the small side - mine were more than adequate
Door handles and catches unfit for purpose - mine were
Locker openings, hasps, knobs, are poor design mine weren't
Rectangular doors - they did have a slight curve and were never a problem
Creaky soles, etc never noticed it, but could have been, but was never a problem,
Very limited storage space stacks of storage space, 3 full length hanging lockers, plus shelves in addition to many lockers throughout the saloon and forward cabin Plus huge storage under forward bunk and under the seats in addition to 'secret hideyholes' throughout
Very simple electric distribution panels brilliant and easy to sort out
Very exposed cockpit with no handholds cockpit was no more exposed than most, could have been more secure I suppose but managed to not fall out of it anyway,


I could go on, was the Bavaria 38 perfect, of course not , among other things like a lot of AWB she would slam in big seas and a long keeler would be better for directional stability. There are other issues, all boats are compromises, but I liked the Bavaria so much am in the process of buying another one. I know people who own Beneteaus, Jeaneaus and Dufour who have similar positive thoughts about their own boats.

 

[RupertW]

I'm with jordanbassett on this one - although I have no experience of Moody's I have owned a couple of Westerley's, a Beneteau and a Jeanneau.

I simply haven't noticed an issue with the French boats except that they were much better suited and equipped for the kinds of sailing I wanted to do at the times when I bought them.
A big cockpit is almost essential in sunny climes but I do tend to prefer those with a nice big dining table in the middle to divide them into two narrow cockpits.
Storage has always been exellent in the modern boats - and set up as more shallow lockers than one big huge cave which is horrible to get at things which have gone to the bottom.
Many opening hatches again are important as every bit of through draft counts.
In the Med at least it is the more traditional Northern boats that look oddly claustrophobic and hot inside, but would be ideal for me (if a little slow) in cold choppier waters.
Breakages however, have been a much bigger part of owning my Jeanneau than the Westerley - largely because of all the different domestic systems - first time I've had hot water, a fridge and two heads. And the boat had been endlessly plundered as flotilla lead boat for 5 years after chartering. However nothing has yet broken that was integral to the boat make - just worn out systems fitted to it which I have replaced like for like as spare parts are available everywhere.
One gripe was big round hull (though very conservative compared to new boats) would round up if overpressed main with wind from reaching to running. Completely solved by reefing or dropping main much earlier.

Having said all of that - either you are the kind of person who says, "That was a cracking sail, and this really is the life on a perfect swimming platform", or the kind who looks back from the tender and goes, "Isn't the old girl beautiful"

 

[Tranona]

I am with the last two posts. Simply don't recognise what you are describing - and if a boat was like that would not buy one!. However, like jordanbasset I have had a Bavaria (37, similar to his 38) and now a 33 (again the same as he is buying) and they have both been more than satisfactory. My 37 was a charter boat for 7 seasons and nothing of significance broke or fell off and still at 14 years old is in excellent condition. The only reason I sold it was to go down a size to suit my advancing age and shrinking aspirations!

There are some really good buys on the market from the early 2000s, particularly the Bavaria 40 and 42 which don't have any of the negative characteristics you list.

 

[alexsailor]

In the Med at least it is the more traditional Northern boats that look oddly claustrophobic and hot inside,....

I totally agree.
Believe me or not I felt claustrophobic on HR 54 with that "heavy" curtains etc.
I own and sail Jeanneau SO 43DS year 2002. No problems. It is a good, solid boat.
True is that new boats (also Jeanneau) have a very poor quality of furniture but If you are looking for a year 2000 (+/-) I see no problem...

 

[Skylark]

Does the build quality start to impact use and enjoyment of the boat........ some examples of where I have been disappointed include:
Windlass underspecced for boat size
Lack of Gunwales
Running Rig and some deck hardware (from genoa track to blocks to bow roller) on the small side
Door handles and catches unfit for purpose
Locker openings, hasps, knobs, are poor design
Lack of fiddles on the tables
Rectangular doors
Limited hand holds, protruding hard or sharp surfaces (eg sink splash panel)
Creaky soles, etc
Very limited storage space
Very simple electric distribution panels (maybe that's a good thing?)
Very exposed cockpit with no handholds
Cabinets attached to the hull with just a couple of woodscrews

I could go on, but I expect many of you know what I mean.

With that degree of prejudice against modern boats I imagine that you would never be satisfied and always regret the purchase, hence I suggest that you seek the panacea of a larger Westerly or Moody.

 

[FullCircle]

I have a 2005 Jeanneau 35 bought new.
I paid over £100k less than a Southerly and similar money less than an HR.

I took the vioew that by spending £20k, I could improve the boat to a good standard inside and out. So, I had all the doors and drawers teak capped in solid, a new much better saloon table, improved space in all lockers and created new ones with cutouts in areas that had air behind them. I improved electrics and upgraded all lighting and sockets, inverters. Improved gas storage and delivery options, engine servicing hatches added and improved, on deck handholds, safety rings, upgraded rigging, added emergency forestay. Even opened up a whole cockpit locker to double size....Well you get the picture.
I will get round to proper floor boards when these ones are finally knackered but they have been heavily used for 10 years.
I have replaced one teak cupboard knob and adjusted the door hinges on a few of the doors and drawers

None of that makes it worth more, but it is a ship of conveniance to its owners.....

 

[duncan99210]

I'm with the others on this. I've got a 2000 Bavaria 38 which we bought at 9 years old. We sailed her from UK to Greece and round the Med for five years as a full time liveaboard, so all the systems on board got heavily used. Yes, there're been breakdowns ranging from a dead injector pump to a split accumulator on the water system but you have to expect something to wear out. Build quality on the boat is, in my opinion, very good. Joinery is well finished, there is excellent storage and the layout is easy to move round in a heavy sea. There are plenty of handholds without cluttering up the cabin layout with additional posts, a factor which nudged us in the direction of the Bavaria versus a Moody or a Westerly.
The cockpit is a reasonable compromise, being large enough for four or five adults to sit in when moored whilst being small enough to be comfortable when well healed.
I could go on but you get the picture.

 

[mickbond]

Have a 2005 Jeanneau SO35 ( same as Full Circles except un modified). Owned for 10 years lived aboard for 2 years, Other than changing sea cocks that didn't really need changing and replacing toilet with twist and lock type no other issues not covered by regular maintainance/renewal. 3rd Jeanneau, great value for money.

 

[westernman]

A long keeler would be better for directional stability.

I can vouch for the fact that a full displacement heavy long keeler's directional stability is not that great when you try to significantly exceed hull speed. (e.g. full sail up broad reaching in F7 gusting F8).

 

[nimrod1230]

I don't live aboard, just channel cruising. Had a Moody 36s for 15 years. Did lots of updating over that period but still envied decent toilet showers, swim platform and walk through and general extra living room. Moved to a Sun Odyssey 45 5 years ago with all the missing goodies. The internal construction is machine made with slot and tongue assembly but made of good quality plywood. Being the performance version, deck gear, sails etc well specified. Quicker passage times and more comfort have been great. At the time it looked a bit caravan to my eye but boat interiors have changed so much in the last 5 years she now looks quite traditional! All on board systems are industry standard and appear to be fitted sensibly.

 

[siwhi]

Thanks all for the largely encouraging responses.

One possibility for my questioning is that the boats we have chartered in the past and looked at so far in our search have been poor examples, and I acknowledge there may be some bias in my viewpoint as a result. That's why I was keen to get the perspective of those who liveaboard or regularly sail their own newer boats. There are many aspects of these designs I like, and more importantly my wife likes, and I understand some of the comments about older UK or Scandinavian boats in hot climes being claustrophobic. As I said what I was concerned about at this point was build quality, but I am much encouraged that this is not shared by anyone commenting so far, quite the contrary. I also note the point that things can be changed. If I'm honest I will probably continue to feel a little skeptical until I have owned a newer boat for a while, but I have to bow to your collective experience and wisdom. There will always be a number of design details on some of the newer boats I've seen that I will never like, but every boat is a compromise in some respect.

So, thanks again for your comments, they have at the least ensured I will keep our options open and take a look at some better examples of models we are interested in, and broaden the scope of the search.

 

[Koeketiene]

I can vouch for the fact that a full displacement heavy long keeler's directional stability is not that great when you try to significantly exceed hull speed. (e.g. full sail up broad reaching in F7 gusting F8).

And why would you want to do that?
In a blow, reefing is a sensible thing to do - whatever boat you sail.

 

[westernman]

And why would you want to do that?
In a blow, reefing is a sensible thing to do - whatever boat you sail.

To see how fast we could go and whether we could get up on the plane.

 

[Koeketiene]

To see how fast we could go and whether we could get up on the plane.

Well, of course... silly me.
I knew there had to be a sensible reason.

 

[jonic]

I hesitate to kick off another round of the debate rehearsed here occasionally concerning boat choice dilemmas, but I am interested in the opinions of those who have switched from a Moody or Westerly of the 1980's (or similar) to a newer (post 2000) Beneteau or Jeanneau or Bavaria, especially from those that now liveaboard them. Specifically there are 2 questions I have concerning your sentiment and reflections having made the switch:

Do some of the design choices on the new boat start to irritate or do you find they are actually not a big deal?

Does the build quality start to impact use and enjoyment of the boat or do you tend to relax and live with the boat's foibles?

I should say that although we have a Moody at the moment (which in general I like a lot), we will be moving up to a considerably bigger boat within the next year in order to do an extended trip with the family (2 adults, 2 kids). We are therefore deciding in general terms between say a 2007 Beneteau around 45' and an older and often slightly smaller UK or Scandinavian boat. I have done a couple of long deliveries on newer Beneteaus and chartered a range of newer boats (Jeanneau, Hanse, Bavaria) and certain aspects of their design and build annoyed and surprised me. However we are starting to look at options and the last couple of Beneteaus we looked at this week got me wondering again. Huge plusses were the space and overall layout for living onboard, both below and in the cockpit, but the downsides were also very obvious.

So my (impossible to answer) question is for those who have made similar switches: would any feeling of frustration / concern / unease last or is it quickly forgotten post purchase and do the benefits (space, cockpit layout at anchor, newer hardware) easily make up for the shortcomings?

In terms of some of the design, materials and build choices, some examples of where I have been disappointed include:
Windlass underspecced for boat size
Lack of Gunwales
Running Rig and some deck hardware (from genoa track to blocks to bow roller) on the small side
Door handles and catches unfit for purpose
Locker openings, hasps, knobs, are poor design
Lack of fiddles on the tables
Rectangular doors
Limited hand holds, protruding hard or sharp surfaces (eg sink splash panel)
Creaky soles, etc
Very limited storage space
Very simple electric distribution panels (maybe that's a good thing?)
Very exposed cockpit with no handholds
Cabinets attached to the hull with just a couple of woodscrews

I could go on, but I expect many of you know what I mean. I know of course the specific boat condition, layout and equipment spec weigh heavily in any choice, but I'd like to take that out of the equation for the moment and focus on build quality satisfaction.

Thanks,

Simon

It's an interesting set of questions and you are likely to get wildly differing views.

However, speaking personally, we went from local sailing in a Beneteau to long distance, long term sailing in a Westerly and Moody (with two kids). Then came back to the UK and switched to a newish Jeanneau......but after a season went back to an older design and bought a 1985 Contest, which we totally refitted from stem to stern with modern gear, including winches, engine, sails, electronics etc.

We just seem to prefer the older design.

You may also find the mix of models here quite interesting
https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.1179972122031885.1073741829.540257116003392&type=3

It's a very personal thing.

 

[GrahamM376]

We just seem to prefer the older design. It's a very personal thing.

We had the choice of buying older boat and updating for roughly the same price then as a new European model. Chose the Moody and haven't regretted it.

 

[pmagowan]

To see how fast we could go and whether we could get up on the plane.

Have you tried doing it in a modern plastic boat? I was caught out in a gust in Thailand while chartering and even though we had the main fully reefed it was almost impossible to keep her on track during the gusts. Maybe it was just my lack of experience with that type of boat but she seemed to overpower her rudder as she wanted to point up no matter how I tried to anticipate it. In my wee wooden long keeler I could have kept going in a straight line with all sail up and only one hand on the tiller.

I have to say that I have a preference for the older style of boat and chartering has not really made me change my mind. The average modern boat just has a lighter feel to it that does not suit me. It is a bit like timber frame houses. They are fine and do a great job, light and airy, cheap etc but I like bricks and morter or even good old fashioned stone. I find the interiors of modern boats seem quite flimsy and ikea-like. All the guts are hidden in favour of a family sized living room. This is just my style and probably says little about the newer styles of boats as any I have sailed in have always got me there and been more comfortable than my old thing.

 

[westernman]

Have you tried doing it in a modern plastic boat? I was caught out in a gust in Thailand while chartering and even though we had the main fully reefed it was almost impossible to keep her on track during the gusts. Maybe it was just my lack of experience with that type of boat but she seemed to overpower her rudder as she wanted to point up no matter how I tried to anticipate it. In my wee wooden long keeler I could have kept going in a straight line with all sail up and only one hand on the tiller.

I have to say that I have a preference for the older style of boat and chartering has not really made me change my mind. The average modern boat just has a lighter feel to it that does not suit me. It is a bit like timber frame houses. They are fine and do a great job, light and airy, cheap etc but I like bricks and morter or even good old fashioned stone. I find the interiors of modern boats seem quite flimsy and ikea-like. All the guts are hidden in favour of a family sized living room. This is just my style and probably says little about the newer styles of boats as any I have sailed in have always got me there and been more comfortable than my old thing.

We were doing 9.4-9.8 knots over ground - may be with an adverse current of about 0.5 knots. Every time the boat headed up a little, it required a very quick reaction to steer against it, with a lot rudder - at times with a heavy load as well. Once back on course it was necessary to straighten up very quickly. When back on track, the slightest steering effort would send us one way or the other very fast. The boat did not really want to go straight but was very definitely trying to wiggle out of the huge hole in the water we were digging for ourselves. The auto pilot was out of its league a long time before getting to those speeds.

We came to the conclusion that there was no way that 34 tonnes of long keeler were going to plane and that we had pretty much hit the maximum speed possible.

Great fun, but truly exhausting work steering.

 

[nickf]

with all sail up and only one hand on the tiller.

I have to say that I have a preference for the older style of boat and chartering has not really made me change my mind. The average modern boat just has a lighter feel to it that does not suit me. It is a bit like timber frame houses. They are fine and do a great job, light and airy, cheap etc but I like bricks and morter or even good old fashioned stone. I find the interiors of modern boats seem quite flimsy and ikea-like.

Weren't most Elizabethan houses timber framed? - May be its the quality of construction that counts not necessarily the method? Plenty of MABs not very well put together.