Boat buying & selling, your brokerage experiences

[PaulGooch]

Sorry Paul. I have posted continuous facts, actual extracts from legal documents and answered as many of your questions as I can-in detail and in a factual manner.

I will not answer any more of your questions as you are refusing/can't be bothered to answer mine. I really feel you are now just interested in how many hits you can get on your thread rather than a serious and informed debate.

I'll carry on when the playing field is levelled.

I am off to photograph a boat for a client now.

Have a good day.

The poll isn't about my personal business, or indeed the motor trade as a whole. I won't be drawn into a debate about a totally irrelevant industry to allow you to shift the focus away from the current poll.

 

[PaulGooch]

The poll results currently stand as follows :

As a buyer, i would like to see improvements made to the system 33
As a buyer, i am happy with the system 21
As a seller, i would like to see improvements made to the system 27
As a seller, i am happy with the system 14
The current system of client accounts adequately protects buyers 13
The current system of client accounts does notadequately protects buyers 27
I have had a bad experience when dealing with a broker 28
I have not had a bad experience when dealing with a broker 24
Brokers should be regulated 35
Brokers should not be regulated 11

Total voters = 64

I'll post a link to scuttlebutt now.

 

[ari]

Funny, throughout the recent, and indeed previous, threads about brokerage boats we've been consistently told that analogies between car and boat sales cannot be made. Now they can ?

Dear oh dear!!


I eat two hundred bananas. One is bad.

Have I had a bad banana? TICK

Have I had a good banana? TICK

Poll result. 50% bad banana, 50% good banana.


I launch one million rockets at the moon. One lands on it.

Have I missed the moon? TICK

Have I hit the moon? TICK

Poll results. 50% hit. 50% miss.


I go boating a thousand times. One time it is rough, the rest smooth.

Have I had a rough boating experience? TICK

Have I had a smooth boating experience? TICK

Poll results. 50% smooth. 50% rough.


I visit 500 boat salesmen at a boatshow. I have one bad experience, and 499 good experiences.

Have I have a bad experience with a salesman at a boatshow? TICK

Have I had a good experience at a boatshow? TICK.

Poll results. 50% bad. 50% good.


Is it getting through yet?


I realise you're on a one man quest to destroy brokers reputations, but the sad truth for you is that most of us have had largely positive experiences, and this is all getting a bit boring now.

Is there room for improvement? Probably. Same for any industry. Welcome to Planet Earth.

 

[jonic]

The poll isn't about my personal business, or indeed the motor trade as a whole. I won't be drawn into a debate about a totally irrelevant industry to allow you to shift the focus away from the current poll.

 

[ari]

The poll isn't about my personal business, or indeed the motor trade as a whole. I won't be drawn into a debate about a totally irrelevant industry to allow you to shift the focus away from the current poll.

Woah woah woah, back the truck up Jack.

YOU'RE A CAR DEALER????????

Oh dear oh dear oh dear!

That is brilliant.

Over and out.

 

[PaulGooch]

I realise you're on a one man quest to destroy brokers reputations, but the sad truth for you is that most of us have had largely positive experiences, and this is all getting a bit boring now.

Not at all, i simply questioned the contents of a typical contract in the original thread. The poll has been completed by 64 people, i didn't fill it in 64 times.

If you think "most of us have had largely positive experiences" you need to return to planet Earth and take a look at the poll results.

If you find it boring, don't take part any more, simples.

 

[PaulGooch]

Woah woah woah, back the truck up Jack.

YOU'RE A CAR DEALER????????

Oh dear oh dear oh dear!

That is brilliant.

Over and out.

I get that the brokers have resorted to personal attacks to deflect attention from the poll, not sure what your reasoning is.

Doesn't matter if i'm an axe murderer, it won't change the poll results.

 

[PaulGooch]

You started off so well. You stuck your head over the parapet, when you had no real need to and you defended your own personal corner really well. You explained how you deal with your sales and everyone accepted that how you do business was admirable. It was said more than once that if the rest of the industry did the same, things would indeed be better.

It's unfortunate, in my opinion, that you now feel you have to come and personally attack me, just because you can't seem to accept the poll figures.

"Don't shoot the messenger" springs to mind.

 

[DAKA]

Taken from the ABYA Code of practise

4.2 ABYA Members should acquaint themselves with the ABYA Guidance Notes and abide by these notes in their dealings.

5.2 If the Client is not satisfied they may then notify the matter to ABYA - (providing the broker or sales person is a member) who will refer the matter to their Disciplinary Sub-Committee for consideration if it is thought to be a matter of professional misconduct. This sub-committee comprises senior members of the Association who are experienced in boat sales matters. A "Complaints Protocol" form will be sent out to all complainants setting out the information required before the committee can meet to decide on the issue

5.3 The disciplinary sub-committee will make a judgement based on the information supplied to them at the outset. Once this decision has been made there will be no scope for further discussion. It is therefore highly important that all the relevant evidence is supplied at the outset.

5.4 Sanctions may be applied to the Member by the Disciplinary Sub-Committee if appropriate including one or more of the following:

* Calling the member for interview so that he may state his case to senior Company members;
* Removal from the Company's web site members' listing and from any other publications produced by the Company (which may be rescinded by agreement of Committee at a later date;
* Demotion by a grade of membership (which may be rescinded by agreement of Committee at a later date);
* Suspension (which may be lifted by agreement of Committee at a later date);
* Expulsion of such member.


5.6 Note that for matters which are the subject of a potential or actual technical complaint and which may proceed to law, the matter is potentially sub-judice and the sub-committee may not take any further action until it is resolved and they may investigate any possible contravention of the rules of the Association.

Just cant stop laughing
:

You missed out stiff letter too
Unfortunately no mention of compensation scheme


You frequently mention buying a car and risking the deposit but there is a significant difference............


If I buy a car from a dealer then I am making a risk to get something i want.

I risk £30 000 to get a car.

The dealer is under a legal duty not to misrepresent the car.

When I risk £30 000 with a Yacht Broker either as a Buyer or seller he doesnt own anything to sell, I get nothing in return at all, the Yacht Broker serves no purpose what so ever for the buyer and simply introduces an extra layer of significant risk.

You all know by now that I am one of the ones who has been scammed by Yacht Brokers, until recent posts I assumed it was just a few bad apples but I am really concerned that the industry appears to accept the POLLs shocking result as acceptable, even finding humour in others misfortunes.

Its very clear that yacht Brokers have no intention of getting their camp in order leaving the duty on the forum to continue in the education posts to make sure every buyer and seller is aware of the risks.

In my opinion Yacht Brokers havent come across well on this thread , previously I would have been cautious of odd ones , I am very surprised at the level of acceptance of disgruntled customers.

 

[gjgm]

Sorry Paul. I have posted continuous facts, actual extracts from legal documents and answered as many of your questions as I can-in detail and in a factual manner.

I will not answer any more of your questions as you are refusing/can't be bothered to answer mine. I really feel you are now just interested in how many hits you can get on your thread rather than a serious and informed debate.

I'll carry on when the playing field is levelled.

I am off to photograph a boat for a client now.

Have a good day.

I will laugh my head off if in the course of business he uses client accounts

 

[PaulGooch]

I will laugh my head off if in the course of business he uses client accounts

Of course i don't and i don't know of anyone in the motor trade that does.

What i also don't do is ask buyers for thousands of pounds up front, before i'll allow them a test drive. I don't ask for thousands as a deposit in any case. My deposits are very small, paid after the buyer has had the chance of a free, no obligation test drive, at my expense. The deposit it to protect against time wasters asking to reserve a car for a few days and then not returning, resulting in wasted sales opportunities and additional advertising costs.

The car he's purchasing belongs to me, i'm not brokering it. Unlike brokers, i do have a duty of care to all of my customers.

 

[ColdFusion]

With respect to those who have drawn attention to PaulGooch's profession - what does this have to do with this thread, "Boat buying and selling, your brokerage experiences" ??? Is it to sideline this and other brokerage threads for your own ulterior motives or is it to somehow try to discredit PaulGooch???

As for some of the more personal attacks coming from brokers in this and other threads, it does nothing to improve your image and it certainly does nothing for your profession.

 

[DAKA]

With respect to those who have drawn attention to PaulGooch's profession - what does this have to do with this thread, "Boat buying and selling, your brokerage experiences" ??? Is it to sideline this and other brokerage threads for your own ulterior motives or is it to somehow try to discredit PaulGooch???

As for some of the more personal attacks coming from brokers in this and other threads, it does nothing to improve your image and it certainly does nothing for your profession.

Well said.

The most obvious difference is that the car dealer owns the car.

Yacht Broker doesnt own the boat so it isnt his money, its about security.

Agreed attacks on Paul dont serve any purpose at all, Paul just asked the forum to answer a few questions after checked the Yacht Brokers were happy with the questions.
Instead of treating the answers as a reflection of the way customers feel , some blame Paul , its a joke.

Come on guiys, stop digging big holes for yourselves and take at look at the way you and your staff treat your customers, its clear many are unhappy.

You need to recognise that most of your customers are good honest decent people that aren't used to dealing with 'sharp practices' and are just too polite to let you know how they really feel about the way you treat them.

I recall very well the phone call I made to Mr D, (the scam broker), this was after I had a survey to confirm my boat had osmosis , after I had spoken to the previous owner who confirmed Mr D knew the boat had Osmosis and after I had spoken to the previous scam broker who confirmed Mr D knew the boat had Osmosis.

Mr D being an apparent professional who had befriended me as part of the scam said The Boat hasnt got osmosis,
I told him it had and I had a survey
He replied he had no idea


I was servilely embarrassed then to have to explain to him I knew the full story.
It is very difficult to tell someone that you think they are a lying thieving scum bag.
Its far more British to apologise for your mistake and say sorry for troubling the yacht broker.


I was lucky

The yacht Broker selling me the boat Mr D (S notanyyacht Brokers) turned out to own the boat along with Mr H (( DH notanyatch brokers) otherwise I wouldnt have stood a chance of getting any money back.



The selling

 

[Tranona]

This really is becoming a joke.

Are the proposers of this "Poll" seriously suggesting it has any significant meaning? The original thread has had over 300 posts and over 7000 hits. If you can bear to read it all you have 3 people who have specific complaints, two about the apparent restrictions on test sails without commitment and one who just hates brokers - although not sure why because all his examples, if I follow them correctly involve dealers, not brokers. Some concern over the operation of client accounts. Then you have a variety of minor issues relating to lack of professionalism and high charges from various others. Thats it. No concrete, documented example of the horrendous ills that are supposed to be there.

Now we have this "Poll" which only just over 60 people out of the hundreds that have seen it have bothered to answer. Out of that around 35 express some form of dissatisfaction.

Do you seriously think that you can turn this into a convincing argument that there is a problem?

If you really want to bring this to the attention of the interested parties then write to them - or seek a meeting along the lines I have already suggested. If you provide me with a clear statement of what you want to draw to their attention together with solid examples as illustrations, I will draft a letter for you.

 

[PaulGooch]

This really is becoming a joke.

Are the proposers of this "Poll" seriously suggesting it has any significant meaning? The original thread has had over 300 posts and over 7000 hits. If you can bear to read it all you have 3 people who have specific complaints, two about the apparent restrictions on test sails without commitment and one who just hates brokers - although not sure why because all his examples, if I follow them correctly involve dealers, not brokers. Some concern over the operation of client accounts. Then you have a variety of minor issues relating to lack of professionalism and high charges from various others. Thats it. No concrete, documented example of the horrendous ills that are supposed to be there.

Now we have this "Poll" which only just over 60 people out of the hundreds that have seen it have bothered to answer. Out of that around 35 express some form of dissatisfaction.

Do you seriously think that you can turn this into a convincing argument that there is a problem?

If you really want to bring this to the attention of the interested parties then write to them - or seek a meeting along the lines I have already suggested. If you provide me with a clear statement of what you want to draw to their attention together with solid examples as illustrations, I will draft a letter for you.

It would be a fair bet that there are people who won't get involved in the thread, or the poll, due to the high chances of attack and ridicule from those with vested interests, such as yourself.

So far, i've been personally attacked and insulted, here and on WSF. I've had veiled threats by PM. I've been discussed and ridiculed on FaceBook. I've been "looked into" by one brokers via Google searches.

How utterly bizarre.

So far, i've resisted the urge to retaliate in kind. I've resisted the urge to post personal details about any of the brokers attacking me. I've not yet bothered to contact anyone's employer and seek their views. Things might yet change.

 

[gjgm]

It would be a fair bet that there are people who won't get involved in the thread, or the poll, due to the high chances of attack and ridicule from those with vested interests, such as yourself.

So far, i've been personally attacked and insulted, here and on WSF. I've had veiled threats by PM. I've been discussed and ridiculed on FaceBook. I've been "looked into" by one brokers via Google searches.

How utterly bizarre.

So far, i've resisted the urge to retaliate in kind. I've resisted the urge to post personal details about any of the brokers attacking me. I've not yet bothered to contact anyone's employer and seek their views. Things might yet change.

Think yourself lucky you arent a broker..

Ah well, good luck and well done if you get some concrete positive changes.

 

[yesod]

As for some of the more personal attacks coming from brokers in this and other threads, it does nothing to improve your image and it certainly does nothing for your profession.

One personal attack after lots of provocation. And I note you chose not to comment on the attacks from DAKA, and his snide insinuating threads that seem to have vanished....

Its not the one way traffic you imagine...

 

[Resolution]

The car he's purchasing belongs to me, i'm not brokering it. Unlike brokers, i do have a duty of care to all of my customers.

If you are selling the car in the course of your business to an individual, then you are presumably subject to the Sale of Goods Act which gives the private purchaser quite a few rights. So of course you take care.

Exactly as a yacht dealer would do.

I am quietly surprised at how little differently the buying public treat buying from a dealer to buying from another private person (whether or not through a broker).

 

[jonic]

I get that the brokers have resorted to personal attacks to deflect attention from the poll, not sure what your reasoning.

Paul. I don't think ARI is a broker.

I have no intention of personally attacking you. Honestly.

You have made an awful lot of comments about brokers client accounts over the last 48 hrs and have set up a poll that includes them too. These are your comments in italics:

Any old Tom, Dick or Harry can set up and be a broker. He can't legally steal the money, but he can put it in his own account and lose it "by accident" if he goes bust. He could also have a poorly set up account that doesn't give the protection it's believed to give.

I think regulations should be in place that legally require a broker to setup a "proper" client account and to be legally required to place clients funds into it. He'll then be committing a criminal act if he puts the money anywhere else or "borrows" it.

I'm obviously not the only one that thinks brokers should use properly set up client accounts


Where i largely feel the protection is inadequate, is the lack of legal requirement to setup and operate a client account. A broker can put deposits in his company account if he wants. He can also withdraw the money.

For me, the question of client accounts goes hand in hand with my belief that the industry requires regulation. Part of that regulation would (for me) require stricter controls regarding deposits and client accounts. Including, but not necessarily limited to, legal requirements :

Setup a proper client account.

All monies must only be paid directly to the client account.

Funds cannot be transferred to company account, with the exception of the commission (at conclusion of transaction). All other funds can only be transferred to the rightful trustee directly.

At the moment, a brokers doesn't even have to have a client account, he can keep the money under his pillow if he wants.


You are clearly very concerned about client accounts

To ease your concern I have posted many times now details of how an accredited broker will have a written in trust client account with the bank and how it works and that as a member of ABYA in particular he must abide by the following.

3.1 The ABYA Member shall ensure he is correctly registered under the FSA regulations if he is offering and arranging finance, and registered as a High Value Dealer if he takes, or is likely to take, cash payments at any time.

3.2 The Member shall set up a Client Account, designated as such, and identified at the Bank as such, where he shall hold all client monies, as these monies are held on behalf of the client and are not to be used for company purposes.

I have posted details of how the account is written in trust with the bank and cannot be combined with another account and is client money held in trust by the bank.

Clearly you do not think these measures go far enough and it should be made law that all yacht brokers should follow this not just ABYA members. I 100% agree with you.

I assumed that as you also handle client money you would be operating in a similar fashion as an accredited broker, and may have additional measures that you would like adopted in the Yacht Broking industry.

So I asked you if you had a client account and you have responded.

Of course i don't and i don't know of anyone in the motor trade that does.

Thank you for your candour. It was a straight question and you have given a straight answer. No personal attack intended from me.

 

[Tranona]

It would be a fair bet that there are people who won't get involved in the thread, or the poll, due to the high chances of attack and ridicule from those with vested interests, such as yourself.

So far, i've been personally attacked and insulted, here and on WSF. I've had veiled threats by PM. I've been discussed and ridiculed on FaceBook. I've been "looked into" by one brokers via Google searches.

How utterly bizarre.

So far, i've resisted the urge to retaliate in kind. I've resisted the urge to post personal details about any of the brokers attacking me. I've not yet bothered to contact anyone's employer and seek their views. Things might yet change.

I have never "attacked" anybody. My criticism is always related to the lack of substance of the "complaints" that are made. They simply do not stack up. Long on rhetoric and short on fact - and when "fact" is proposed it is almost always wrong.

By all means express your dislike or unhappiness with your own personal experoince, but do not claim that it is representatative of a general feeling.

Hits are now approaching 7000 on the original thread. Less than 1% of that number have voted in your "poll" and barely half of those have expressed even general concern. As I said earlier, the number of people who have expressed any specific concern is in single figures - and NONE of those provide any documented evidence to support their position.

You clearly have a personal problem with aspects of the way that brokerage sales are conducted - but it is not shared by others. If it is really so important to you, then you should take it up with the approriate bodies.

It is clear from these exchanges that you have no intention of accepting any explanation as to why things are as they are, nor have you managed to gain any significant support for your views, so perhaps it is a good time to forget all about it and get on with life.