Boat buying & selling, your brokerage experiences

[gjgm]

The poll makes no reference to a compensation scheme.

I asks if people feel they are adequately protected and if they would like brokers to be regulated. I've never suggested, here or anywhere else that there should be a compensation scheme.

At the moment, a brokers doesn't even have to have a client account, he can keep the money under his pillow if he wants.

All i've suggested is a fair and consistent system that adequately protects buyers and sellers. The only people who really should be campaigning against that is shoddy brokers.

Also note, i have never suggested any brokers are thieves. But, some are clearly not giving good service. Whilst it might be hard to regulate against daylight robbers, it's not so hard to ensure an industry provides a satisfactory level of service. Other industries manage.

OK, sorry.. no mention of compensation.
How will you make regulation legally compulsory, as otherwise we are back to where we are now-voluntary.

 

[Lucky Duck]

OK, sorry.. no mention of compensation.
How will you make regulation legally compulsory, as otherwise we are back to where we are now-voluntary.

I suppose you could make 'yacht broker' controlled like being an Architect (who have to maintain PI insurance pretty much for life) or have a professional body which takes governance seriously and fines members for non-compliance.

 

[jonic]

Is your answer to the criticism your industry is receiving really to laugh and take the piss ? No wonder you're getting such bad press.

Paul as I said before I am 100% behind any measures that are deemed appropriate as I already voluntarily offer the highest standards and operating procedures I possibly can.

I understand that you are a used car salesman, and these are genuine and serious questions. I am curious now to see how other industries operate. What are the regulations for you regarding taking deposits. Are you compelled to operate a client account by law or did you set yours up voluntarily. Does it differ in any way to the client call account I have with LLoyds?

I bought a car two months ago and we arranged to have the wheels refurbished, I had to pay a 10% deposit on the car whilst this was being done but no mention was made of the client account. Is that standard practise in the motor trade? Had the trader gone bust in the interim what would have happened to my money.

Are the methods you use to safeguard your customers interests different to those employed by us as yacht brokers, and should we be adopting them?

I only know of the RMIF, did you have to join that to be able to operate your business?

Seriously these are genuine questions.

 

[gravygraham]

Paul, I feel your poll questions are phrased slightly negatively which can influence responses.

<I have had a bad experience when dealing with a broker>
<I have not had a bad experience when dealing with a broker>

One could be forgiven for interpreting them that everyone will at some time have '... a bad experience when dealing with a broker'.

For the record, I've no axe to grind, just a private boater observing another 'Trial By Forum'.

 

[gjgm]

I suppose you could make 'yacht broker' controlled like being an Architect (who have to maintain PI insurance pretty much for life) or have a professional body which takes governance seriously and fines members for non-compliance.

Well,lets think about this.
There are some larger brokerage firms, that I imagine are privately owned, and therefore will have internal standards to protect the reputation of the company. Let us guess there are not too many complaints about them, then.
Then you might have the ambitious sole broker, who is running his own business as his livelihood. Maybe he becomes - and pays to be -a member of one of the mentioned associations. He agrees to abide by their voluntary code of conduct. Still, it is his business and he can run it exactly as he likes as long as it is legal, but perhaps he isnt going to thrive by being an a**hole.
Then maybe we have those sole brokers who dont want to be a member of anything, and will run their business by their own standards.
There is no law preventing anyone from selling boats, and I really dont see any MP is going to waste his time proposing one. So maybe we have an association that.. well begins to sound familiar.
If a broker breaks the law by say stealing client monies, he faces the law, courts maybe prison. I really dont think a fine from his association is going to worry him too much.
But for all brokers running their own business outside of an association they are surely free to be as rude and unhelpful as they like. They owe you as a potential buyer nothing. They might not have too many customers on either side, but that is their problem.
The idea that buyers who are actually paying nothing for his service have some right to complain seems laughable. If you dont like his sweater, his laziness or his attitude, go somewhere else. If as a seller you dont like any of those, use another broker.
Edit. I have to say that just because a buyer feels miffed by the service he gets from a broker doesnt to my mind immediately imply to broker is at fault. I am sure there are plenty of supposed buyers that are a waste of his time.

 

[ari]

I've bought lots of cars over the years.

Back in 1991 I went in to a car dealership and they wouldn't give me the time of day.

Every other experience over the following 20 years has been super.

So lets put up a poll.

Have I had a bad experience with a car dealer? Well, yes, once 20 years ago. TICK

Have I had a good experience, well, yes, the other 200 times I've been in a car dealership. TICK.

So, lets work out the ratio of good to bad. Maths is not my strong point but 99.5% positive?

Now lets look at the results of my poll.

Ooohh look, 50% good, 50% bad.

Gosh those car dealers are rogues aren't they, they really need to pull their socks up!!!

Well done witch hunters.

 

[PaulGooch]

Paul, I feel your poll questions are phrased slightly negatively which can influence responses.

<I have had a bad experience when dealing with a broker>
<I have not had a bad experience when dealing with a broker>

One could be forgiven for interpreting them that everyone will at some time have '... a bad experience when dealing with a broker'.

For the record, I've no axe to grind, just a private boater observing another 'Trial By Forum'.

The questions were proposed in the other thread though and no-one objected.

If ypuv'e had mixed experiences, you could skip that question, or tick both boxes. As i said before, i suspect a lot of voters will have ticked both.

 

[PaulGooch]

Funny, throughout the recent, and indeed previous, threads about brokerage boats we've been consistently told that analogies between car and boat sales cannot be made. Now they can ?

 

[jonic]

Funny, throughout the recent, and indeed previous, threads about brokerage boats we've been consistently told that analogies between car and boat sales cannot be made. Now they can ?

Well we have also had analogies to Solicitors, Accountants, Architects and Insurance brokers. (Some by you I believe) Seeing as you are a used car salesman and the major torch carrier and instigator for these alleged bad broker threads I suppose it is reasonable to now ask how your own business is run and compares?

Perhaps we could learn something from you and apply some of of the safeguards you employ in your own business? (I am assuming you are the owner of the business). I'll ask the questions again.

What are the regulations for you regarding taking deposits?

Are you compelled to operate a client account by law or did you set yours up voluntarily. Does it differ in any way to the client call account I have with LLoyds?

I bought a car two months ago and we arranged to have the wheels refurbished, I had to pay a 10% deposit on the car whilst this was being done but no mention was made of the client account. Is that standard practise in the motor trade?

Had the trader gone bust in the interim what would have happened to my money?

Are the methods you use to safeguard your customers interests different to those employed by us as yacht brokers, and should we be adopting them?

I only know of the RMIF, did you have to join that to be able to operate your business?

Seriously these are genuine questions.

 

[Lucky Duck]

Well,lets think about this.
There are some larger brokerage firms, that I imagine are privately owned, and therefore will have internal standards to protect the reputation of the company. Let us guess there are not too many complaints about them, then.
Then you might have the ambitious sole broker, who is running his own business as his livelihood. Maybe he becomes - and pays to be -a member of one of the mentioned associations. He agrees to abide by their voluntary code of conduct. Still, it is his business and he can run it exactly as he likes as long as it is legal, but perhaps he isnt going to thrive by being an a**hole..

My professional body has very strict rules requiring the running of client accounts, the running of these accounts is subject to scrutiny by a proffessional conduct board and when indviduals or companies are found not to be operating them in accordance with the rules they are fined and/or expelled.

If a particular trade body had robust rules in place and was known to enforce them then people would feel far more comfortable dealing with a broker from that body.

 

[jonic]

If a particular trade body had robust rules in place and was known to enforce them then people would feel far more comfortable dealing with a broker from that body.

Taken from the ABYA Code of practise

4.2 ABYA Members should acquaint themselves with the ABYA Guidance Notes and abide by these notes in their dealings.

5.2 If the Client is not satisfied they may then notify the matter to ABYA - (providing the broker or sales person is a member) who will refer the matter to their Disciplinary Sub-Committee for consideration if it is thought to be a matter of professional misconduct. This sub-committee comprises senior members of the Association who are experienced in boat sales matters. A "Complaints Protocol" form will be sent out to all complainants setting out the information required before the committee can meet to decide on the issue

5.3 The disciplinary sub-committee will make a judgement based on the information supplied to them at the outset. Once this decision has been made there will be no scope for further discussion. It is therefore highly important that all the relevant evidence is supplied at the outset.

5.4 Sanctions may be applied to the Member by the Disciplinary Sub-Committee if appropriate including one or more of the following:

* Calling the member for interview so that he may state his case to senior Company members;
* Removal from the Company's web site members' listing and from any other publications produced by the Company (which may be rescinded by agreement of Committee at a later date;
* Demotion by a grade of membership (which may be rescinded by agreement of Committee at a later date);
* Suspension (which may be lifted by agreement of Committee at a later date);
* Expulsion of such member.


5.6 Note that for matters which are the subject of a potential or actual technical complaint and which may proceed to law, the matter is potentially sub-judice and the sub-committee may not take any further action until it is resolved and they may investigate any possible contravention of the rules of the Association.

 

[PaulGooch]

Well we have also had analogies to Solicitors, Accountants, Architects and Insurance brokers. (Some by you I believe) Seeing as you are a used car salesman and the major torch carrier and instigator for these alleged bad broker threads I suppose it is reasonable to now ask how your own business is run and compares?

Perhaps we could learn something from you and apply some of of the safeguards you employ in your own business? (I am assuming you are the owner of the business). I'll ask the questions again.

What are the regulations for you regarding taking deposits?

Are you compelled to operate a client account by law or did you set yours up voluntarily. Does it differ in any way to the client call account I have with LLoyds?

I bought a car two months ago and we arranged to have the wheels refurbished, I had to pay a 10% deposit on the car whilst this was being done but no mention was made of the client account. Is that standard practise in the motor trade?

Had the trader gone bust in the interim what would have happened to my money?

Are the methods you use to safeguard your customers interests different to those employed by us as yacht brokers, and should we be adopting them?

I only know of the RMIF, did you have to join that to be able to operate your business?

Seriously these are genuine questions.

If you are more concerned with my business than the voters perception/experience of brokers, feel free to post a poll asking the exact same questions about the motor trade.

 

[PaulGooch]

Taken from the ABYA Code of practise

4.2 ABYA Members should acquaint themselves with the ABYA Guidance Notes and abide by these notes in their dealings.

5.2 If the Client is not satisfied they may then notify the matter to ABYA - (providing the broker or sales person is a member) who will refer the matter to their Disciplinary Sub-Committee for consideration if it is thought to be a matter of professional misconduct. This sub-committee comprises senior members of the Association who are experienced in boat sales matters. A "Complaints Protocol" form will be sent out to all complainants setting out the information required before the committee can meet to decide on the issue

5.3 The disciplinary sub-committee will make a judgement based on the information supplied to them at the outset. Once this decision has been made there will be no scope for further discussion. It is therefore highly important that all the relevant evidence is supplied at the outset.

5.4 Sanctions may be applied to the Member by the Disciplinary Sub-Committee if appropriate including one or more of the following:

* Calling the member for interview so that he may state his case to senior Company members;
* Removal from the Company's web site members' listing and from any other publications produced by the Company (which may be rescinded by agreement of Committee at a later date;
* Demotion by a grade of membership (which may be rescinded by agreement of Committee at a later date);
* Suspension (which may be lifted by agreement of Committee at a later date);
* Expulsion of such member.


5.6 Note that for matters which are the subject of a potential or actual technical complaint and which may proceed to law, the matter is potentially sub-judice and the sub-committee may not take any further action until it is resolved and they may investigate any possible contravention of the rules of the Association.

Would possibly be worth the ink if it was compulsory, rather than voluntary.

We've already seen clear evidence that even ABYA members don't follow the ABYA rules/guidelines. Some even use contracts that are at least a couple of years out of date.

 

[jonic]

If you are more concerned with my business than the voters perception/experience of brokers, feel free to post a poll asking the exact same questions about the motor trade.

Paul. I do not want a poll. I want to hear the FACTS from you.

 

[jonic]

Would possibly be worth the ink if it was compulsory, rather than voluntary.

We've already seen clear evidence that even ABYA members don't follow the ABYA rules/guidelines. Some even use contracts that are at least a couple of years out of date.

Using a 2010 instead of a 2011 makes no difference whatsoever. It is not considered out of date and carries minor changes. Your complete lack of knowledge is leading you to bark up the wrong tree I am afraid.

 

[Lucky Duck]

Taken from the ABYA Code of practise

4.2 ABYA Members should acquaint themselves with the ABYA Guidance Notes and abide by these notes in their dealings.

Thats very useful to know, thanks. I'll certainly pay more attention to whether a broker is a member of the ABYA in future.

Is there any routine checking of compliance or is the committee only conviened when a complaint is recieved? Also does the term 'client' extend to buyers?

 

[jonic]

Would possibly be worth the ink if it was compulsory, rather than voluntary.
.

Like this one?

Please as you are a professional, is that compulsory and are you a member?

I did do a google search for Paul Gooch cars to see if I could find your website and whether you displayed any association logos but Google returned this at the top.

Paul Gooch, Make-Up Department: Alice in Wonderland.
www.imdb.com/name/nm0328655/ - Cached - Similar

 

[jonic]

Thats very useful to know, thanks. I'll certainly pay more attention to whether a broker is a member of the ABYA in future.

Is there any routine checking of compliance or is the committee only conviened when a complaint is recieved? Also does the term 'client' extend to buyers?

You are welcome.

Yes there is checking and all members have to sign an undertaking each year to take out Professional Indemnity Insurance.

The term client is for Buyers and sellers alike.

ABYA is in discussions with the BMF to work closely together and has very recently implicated a joint association professional qualification.

 

[PaulGooch]

Using a 2010 instead of a 2011 makes no difference whatsoever. It is not considered out of date and carries minor changes. Your complete lack of knowledge is leading you to bark up the wrong tree I am afraid.

In what year was the section that allows buyers to reject a boat for any reason introduced ?

 

[jonic]

Sorry Paul. I have posted continuous facts, actual extracts from legal documents and answered as many of your questions as I can-in detail and in a factual manner.

I will not answer any more of your questions as you are refusing/can't be bothered to answer mine. I really feel you are now just interested in how many hits you can get on your thread rather than a serious and informed debate.

I'll carry on when the playing field is levelled.

I am off to photograph a boat for a client now.

Have a good day.