Boat buying & selling, your brokerage experiences

[nickd]

The, admittedly small, poll does not reveal the yacht broking industry as being particularly favoured by its client base. If I was in the industry I would be very concerned at such an extremely negative response.

I think the main problem is the lack of a professional body with any teeth or muscle, Jonic brought up solicitors - ok they have stolen from client accounts there are and always will be bad apples in every walk of life but they are backed up by the Law Society so you will get your money back. The same can be said for travel agents.

The ABYA code of practice may or may not be wonderful but that is all it is - a code of practice. There is no compulsion and no financial backup should the broker operate outside this code. Whilst Brokers operate client accounts properly and honestly for the most part this does not prevent them from "borrowing" from the client account when times get tough - tough might be due to bad business decisions but it could equally de down to something else ie the brokers wife or daughter needs urgent medical care that costs a fortune the temptation for anyone in this situation may be too hard to resist. There is nothing to reassure me a s Joe public that my money is safe from this, yet if I buy a holiday there is, if i buy a house there is, why can’t the Broking Industry get this sorted.
Until the industry faces up to this I think it undermines basic confidence in all facets of it.

And in every industry I have been involved with the Customer is always right we are all your potential customers, when I raise a concern I would expect it to be dealt with tact and good solid explanation not arguing that black is white.

 

[gjgm]

The, admittedly small, poll does not reveal the yacht broking industry as being particularly favoured by its client base. If I was in the industry I would be very concerned at such an extremely negative response.

I think the main problem is the lack of a professional body with any teeth or muscle, Jonic brought up solicitors - ok they have stolen from client accounts there are and always will be bad apples in every walk of life but they are backed up by the Law Society so you will get your money back. The same can be said for travel agents.

The ABYA code of practice may or may not be wonderful but that is all it is - a code of practice. There is no compulsion and no financial backup should the broker operate outside this code. Whilst Brokers operate client accounts properly and honestly for the most part this does not prevent them from "borrowing" from the client account when times get tough - tough might be due to bad business decisions but it could equally de down to something else ie the brokers wife or daughter needs urgent medical care that costs a fortune the temptation for anyone in this situation may be too hard to resist. There is nothing to reassure me a s Joe public that my money is safe from this, yet if I buy a holiday there is, if i buy a house there is, why can’t the Broking Industry get this sorted.
Until the industry faces up to this I think it undermines basic confidence in all facets of it.

And in every industry I have been involved with the Customer is always right we are all your potential customers, when I raise a concern I would expect it to be dealt with tact and good solid explanation not arguing that black is white.

Personally, I dont mind if there is some body with indemnity, I just dont see the need other than appease a few peoples' worries.
The Law Society can hardly have its members breaking the law by stealing client monies- not a great advert for those who are supposed to be the face of Law.I dont really see boat brokers in the same situation.
I do not see the present marine bodies can enforce anything. They cant say that you cant be a boat broker unless you join us, as there is no law to stop anyone being a boat broker.
Now I dont know how hard it is to pass a law in the UK, but I would guess its very expensive, and its not going to be supported unless there is evidence of a severe problem affecting significant members of our fine country. I dont think a handful of people saying they feel uncomfortable is going to cut it, somehow.
Which leaves the possibility of a marine body who will re-imburse private buyers if any of their members abscond with the client money.So, the downside for any such approved broker is what.. being expelled.. in fact, maybe he neednt even worry about nicking the money as he knows the buyer is protected. He is just under the same Uk law as he was anyway, and that's his real risk. If he was shady to start with, I guess this sounds even better.
So, maybe we could have a voluntary body, but I see no way of making a legal body. Members of that body will have to pay for this added security. The members get paid by boat sellers, and its boat buyers who get their money protected.
So, lets say worried boat buyers can pay an additional fee. That meet with universal agreement?

 

[DAKA]

This is becoming more and more enjoyable and more and more of a joke.

We may need Daka to bring his file of filth as evidence for the need for more regulation as I can't find any myself.

I am amazed you find first time buyers getting scammed so funny but I suppose its like taking dummies from babies , I will try to summarize for your enjoyment.........

A Bayliner gets osmosis in the lake district and a local Dealer/Broker sells it to a first time buyer Mr W telling him that the boat is still under warranty so doesnt need a survey, the boat heads south.

8 months later Mr W chooses a Broker in Poole to sell his boat, his Poole Broker phones another Broker in Worcester who turns up on site to see mr W and his poole broker, one partner pretends to be a Private buyer and the other one a surveyor who points out the osmosis.

The Poole Broker recommends a reduced price and also over values a boat taken in part exchange, he fails to advise that he knows the buyer or that the buyer and surveyor are another Broker/dealer.

The Worcester Broker then sells the boat to another first time buyer Mr P and uses the usual scam of saying the boat is under warranty and no need to waste money on a survey.

Mr P then finds the Osmosis , contacts bayliner Aquatic centre (BMF members) to ask about the warranty to be told that the warranty does not cover osmosis, mr P has to spend a fortune in legal fees in order to get compensation.
There needs to be a complaints procedure in place to stop such scams.

Full details here

 

[Nautibusiness]

I am amazed you find first time buyers getting scammed so funny but I suppose its like taking dummies from babies , I will try to summarize for your enjoyment.........

A Bayliner gets osmosis in the lake district and a local Dealer/Broker sells it to a first time buyer Mr W telling him that the boat is still under warranty so doesnt need a survey, the boat heads south.

8 months later Mr W chooses a Broker in Poole to sell his boat, his Poole Broker phones another Broker in Worcester who turns up on site to see mr W and his poole broker, one partner pretends to be a Private buyer and the other one a surveyor who points out the osmosis.

The Poole Broker recommends a reduced price and also over values a boat taken in part exchange, he fails to advise that he knows the buyer or that the buyer and surveyor are another Broker/dealer.

The Worcester Broker then sells the boat to another first time buyer Mr P and uses the usual scam of saying the boat is under warranty and no need to waste money on a survey.

Mr P then finds the Osmosis , contacts bayliner Aquatic centre (BMF members) to ask about the warranty to be told that the warranty does not cover osmosis, mr P has to spend a fortune in legal fees in order to get compensation.
There needs to be a complaints procedure in place to stop such scams.

Full details here

I can see that you have had an extremely bad experience for which I sympathise, but I don't think that your experience is in anyway indicative of a typical one.
It does go some way to show why you have such mistrust, but I once spent well over £1,000 on a chartplotter through ebay. It never arrived and ebay didn't want to know about it at all. It doesn't mean that all online transactions are going to go horribly wrong does it.

I am completely with gjgm in that I have no quarms at all about having some form of body with indemnity if it makes people feel better, but in total honesty in my entire career it has only ever been bought up by people on forums and, for me at least, never in real life in my office.

Of course I have been asked "what happens to my money" and I explain the process. Not once has it been a problem for any of my clients either as a broker or a dealer.
I guess it is remotely possible that I have lost customers due to the procedures we follow, but I suspect that I have won as many by working with my clients in a friendly, knowledgeable, informal yet professional way. Again, the entire process is flexible and I don't think a single industry professional on here would say no to changes IF they were geuinely going to improve the process for all involved. I suspect that most changes will actually make the process more expensive for both buyer and seller and probably make the process far more complicated than necessary. That said, I agree wholeheartedly that one dodgy deal done via a dodgy dealer is one too many. Surely we would find it more useful to actually find out who is doing things well rather than change things because one is doing it badly?

 

[Phoenix of Hamble]

I agree with you Nautibusiness, but does it not worry you that very nearly 50% of respondees to this poll have had a bad experience with a broker?

If that is overstated by even double, it still means that 1 in 4 of us have felt that service wasn't close to what it should be.... that would worry me a great deal, as rightly or wrongly, the industry will be tarred with the same brush.

FWIW, I suspect that both yourself and Jonic, by the very fact that you are prepared to put your heads above the parapet, would be horrified if a single one of your clients ever felt like that... so please don't take the above as a dig... more as an observation

 

[PaulGooch]

This is becoming more and more enjoyable and more and more of a joke.
Not loaded, guided, steered through posts and current threads in anyway. Just as enjoyable reading over on the fishing forum too!

I will also come to parliament and ask for it to be law.
We may need Daka to bring his file of filth as evidence for the need for more regulation as I can't find any myself.

Top of google! PMSL!

As for ABYA v BMF
Just my own opinion, but I see ABYA as being more suited to brokerage and the BMF terms better suited to working a dealership.
No strong basis for that.

It isn't loaded at all.

Every question is a simple yes or no answer, as from the perception/experience of a member of the boat buying/selling general public.

As a buyer would you like to see change yes/no
As a seller would you like to see change yes/no
The current system of client accounts adequately protects buyers yes/no
I have had a bad experience when dealing with a broker yes/no
Brokers should not be regulated yes/no

Same poll on WSF, same results.

 

[PaulGooch]

That said, I agree wholeheartedly that one dodgy deal done via a dodgy dealer is one too many. Surely we would find it more useful to actually find out who is doing things well rather than change things because one is doing it badly?

Tom, until you get it out of your head that it isn't me, or anyone else having a go at you personally, and realise that the majority of boat owners are not happy with brokers in general you're missing a lot of potentially useful information.

I'm going to say this one last time.... Nothing i have said, here or on WSF, has suggested or implied in any way whatsoever that i think you are dishonest or crooked in any way, shape or form. I've never said that, i've repeatedly said the opposite. Perhaps you should read what i've written, for what it says, rather than reading things into it that just are not there.

Don't be guided or influenced by what people like Ron tell you, that i'm trying to destroy your business, that's just plain silly.

 

[DAKA]

I can see that you have had an extremely bad experience for which I sympathise, but I don't think that your experience is in anyway indicative of a typical one.

No you are right, the poll is very clear that its not typical, in fact a mere 50% have had a bad experience.

Have you guys got any idea how your reactions are coming across ?
By defending the cowboys you are standing along side them and loose all respect.
Leaves me feeling very suspicious........

 

[gjgm]

No you are right, the poll is very clear that its not typical, in fact a mere 50% have had a bad experience.

Have you guys got any idea how your reactions are coming across ?
By defending the cowboys you are standing along side them and loose all respect.
Leaves me feeling very suspicious........

I think you are suspiscious anyway

No disrespect to the efforts in the poll, but I think it is very difficult get representative responses. It fact, there is an entire industry built around trying to achieve that.
I really dont think you can take the small number of responses on a specialised internet forum as being a picture of all attitudes- whatever the results suggest. There must be a world of biases in just your medium. Are hooky dealers selling cheap boats, for example? Would the survey change if you put price bands. Should you have price bands? Should you ask only to incidents in the last 2 years?
No idea, just suggesting this might be as much misinformation as information.

 

[PaulGooch]

I think you are suspiscious anyway

No disrespect to the efforts in the poll, but I think it is very difficult get representative responses. It fact, there is an entire industry built around trying to achieve that.
I really dont think you can take the small number of responses on a specialised internet forum as being a picture of all attitudes- whatever the results suggest. There must be a world of biases in just your medium. Are hooky dealers selling cheap boats, for example? Would the survey change if you put price bands. Should you have price bands? Should you ask only to incidents in the last 2 years?
No idea, just suggesting this might be as much misinformation as information.

Would the survey change if we could include all of the potential first time buyers who ran away and bought caravans, because the boat buying process frightened the living daylights out of them ?

We have what we have and we have the same response on WSF. I doubt the percentages will change much when i link the poll to scuttlebutt.

 

[Nautibusiness]

I agree with you Nautibusiness, but does it not worry you that very nearly 50% of respondees to this poll have had a bad experience with a broker?

If that is overstated by even double, it still means that 1 in 4 of us have felt that service wasn't close to what it should be.... that would worry me a great deal, as rightly or wrongly, the industry will be tarred with the same brush.

FWIW, I suspect that both yourself and Jonic, by the very fact that you are prepared to put your heads above the parapet, would be horrified if a single one of your clients ever felt like that... so please don't take the above as a dig... more as an observation

I am fully with you Morgana and yes on face value the figures are something of a surprise.
But, I don't consider myself gods gift to boat brokerage by any stretch.
I sell through my passion for messing around on boats rather than my skill as an "Estate Agent".
Based on that and that I am only human and as such MUST make a few unintentional screw ups along the way I am very surprised that with such a high percentage of disillusioned boat buyers and sellers out there I haven't met them.
No disrespect to Daka at all as I can see he's had a real bad experience, but I genuinely believe he must be the exception as it really isn't that hard to work a deal through honestly and with integrity and even when problems arise, they can almost always be worked out.
Surely Jonic and I aren't that different from others out there? To me, it is simply being professional.

 

[Imperial One]

An interesting thread with an interesting follow on but as Daka says in his post, it was BARCLAYS who took the money - banks act as they please, recent history will prove this well enough. I believe that current banking law allows a bank to access all funds of a company who banks with it if they owe money to them but I stand to be corrected perhaps.
One answer is to have a clients account with a different bank than the current account........

For the record, I do not support any company that is acting or has acted badly. Nor do I endorse poor ethics and I would never use clients money other than for the purpose it is entrusted to us for. Cowboys are cowboys and deserve to be shot at as appropriate.

There are many of us that just get on with the job and (with a nod in the direction of another long running thread) provide a good and honest service, answer the phone promptly, stand up when you enter our office, treat everybody with due respect and travel to take photos, personally view and show boats - agreed there are a few idiots out there as in any business but most of us are really OK so please can we stop generalising - come on name and shame what is to loose?

I think those of us who are putting our heads above the parapet and answering some of the points being raised on here are doing so to give the other side of the story in the hope that we are then not all tarred with the same brush.

Over the years we have had letters and emails of thanks but are too modest to post them on the forum or put them on our website, it is just good to know when you are doing something right and someone is pleased with your efforts and service.

So, what I cannot understand is this, if anyone has a genuine gripe with any company, if you feel that strongly why not simply say so - just name and shame them.

If it were us in the firing line I would hope that any complaint was bought to my attention at the time but if not then I would hope there was a very good reason for the comment to be posted on an open forum either way, I would certainly try to sort it out so that it never happened again. If warranted I would post the other side of the story for all to see and make up their own minds. It has taken years for us to get our hopefully good reputation and I would not want it damaged in any way at all. My last customer is my best ambassador so he, or she, had better be a happy one.

As for talking to the BMF and ABYA to improve things here....
I have been there tried hard to do that after the BA Peters debacle but got nowhere with my efforts, I even sent them and the RYA copies of the Dutch HISWA contracts to learn from.
In addition I wrote to all the major mags and raised the issue in their letter pages. I am sure many will have seen my other posts about contracts and clients money so I will not go over them again.

FWIW whilst writing this, genuinely, I have had a call from an old customer who was so pleased with our service last time round that he has called us to help sell his boat again now for him. I know this is only one customer and not an opinion of twenty or so, as in the poll, but it is at least seen in a positive fashion by this one poor old member of the oft bashed broker fraternity.

Why does no one ever start a thread about the honest brokers and perhaps naming them/us all?
I would have no problems being named as honest but I would at being named , shall we say, "a dodgy cowboy".
Answers on a NEW thread please.

Happy boating one and all

 

[Nautibusiness]

Leaves me feeling very suspicious........

I think that you would feel that way regardless Daka.
No disrespect as you have had a raw deal and so nothing could possibly be done to change the way you feel.
I would imagine that there are people on this forum that would also be suspect of lad selling the toaster at Curries (has he ever used that toaster? How does he know that the defrost button actually defrosts fully?), the man selling him his next car, or the lady at the perfume shop who smells like a tarts handbag and looks orange.

With nothing to quantify what the hundreds of poll respondees mean by having a bad experience and with no explanation in the poll about what a client account is and with no way of matching what one calls a good experience V what another calls bad it is not really a very accurate way of measuring what the hundreds and hundreds of boat buyers truly feel. Add to that the confusion as to what is a broker and who is a boat dealer and then the massive value differences of the guy who has just bought a Wilson Flyer from someones front garden to the chap who has just purchased a 6 month old Trideck along with what each expects along the way and it makes more and more nonsense.
Just adding an edit here as I think my peers on here will also agree that it makes no difference if the purchaser is buying a £10K fishing boat or a £1m+ super yacht, they still deserve the same respect.

I would be all up for anything to make the buying process safer and easier than it is IF it didn't make it harder and more complicated than it already is or make it cost prohibitive. That said, apart from your bad experience I am yet to see any real evidence of skullduggery.

Tom

PS: Good fishermen seem to be incredibly lucky whereas the bad fishermen rarely get a bite

 

[DAKA]

One answer is to have a clients account with a different bank than the current account........

I dont think many banks want to mess about with collecting money, they can get all they need from BOE without the hassle, I think most Yacht brokers would struggle to get a bank to offer them a pure client account as there isnt any profit in it for them, jonic seems to have found a good account if its a client call account as it is specifically designed as a trust account and the bank shouldnt help themselves to it

For the record, I do not support any company that is acting or has acted badly. Nor do I endorse poor ethics and I would never use clients money other than for the purpose it is entrusted to us for. Cowboys are cowboys and deserve to be shot at as appropriate.

There are many of us that just get on with the job and (with a nod in the direction of another long running thread) provide a good and honest service, answer the phone promptly, stand up when you enter our office, treat everybody with due respect and travel to take photos, personally view and show boats - agreed there are a few idiots out there as in any business but most of us are really OK so please can we stop generalising - come on name and shame what is to loose?

These threads have never been about having a pop at honest brokers, its always been about cowboys being able to hide amongst you good guys, but how can we tell who is who ?
name and shame so we have a libel case threatened, could do with out the worry thanks.

I think those of us who are putting our heads above the parapet and answering some of the points being raised on here are doing so to give the other side of the story in the hope that we are then not all tarred with the same brush.

you are not all tarred with the same brush , any posts in support of the cowboys or making it easy for cowboys to operate amongst you isnt going to be received well.

Over the years we have had letters and emails of thanks but are too modest to post them on the forum or put them on our website, it is just good to know when you are doing something right and someone is pleased with your efforts and service.

So, what I cannot understand is this, if anyone has a genuine gripe with any company, if you feel that strongly why not simply say so - just name and shame them.

As soon as they are named and shammed the thread will be pulled but you can read other recent posts .

If it were us in the firing line I would hope that any complaint was bought to my attention at the time but if not then I would hope there was a very good reason for the comment to be posted on an open forum either way, I would certainly try to sort it out so that it never happened again. If warranted I would post the other side of the story for all to see and make up their own minds. It has taken years for us to get our hopefully good reputation and I would not want it damaged in any way at all. My last customer is my best ambassador so he, or she, had better be a happy one.

As for talking to the BMF and ABYA to improve things here....
I have been there tried hard to do that after the BA Peters debacle but got nowhere with my efforts, I even sent them and the RYA copies of the Dutch HISWA contracts to learn from.
In addition I wrote to all the major mags and raised the issue in their letter pages. I am sure many will have seen my other posts about contracts and clients money so I will not go over them again.

See Appendix A of the BMF code of conduct, testament to the power of the forum

FWIW whilst writing this, genuinely, I have had a call from an old customer who was so pleased with our service last time round that he has called us to help sell his boat again now for him. I know this is only one customer and not an opinion of twenty or so, as in the poll, but it is at least seen in a positive fashion by this one poor old member of the oft bashed broker fraternity.

Why does no one ever start a thread about the honest brokers and perhaps naming them/us all?

Go for it, start a thread telling everyone how wonderful you are
I would have no problems being named as honest but I would at being named , shall we say, "a dodgy cowboy".
Answers on a NEW thread please.

Happy boating one and all

My reply in orange because I cant multiquote

 

[PaulGooch]

<snip>

With nothing to quantify what the hundreds of poll respondees mean by having a bad experience and with no explanation in the poll about what a client account is and with no way of matching what one calls a good experience V what another calls bad it is not really a very accurate way of measuring what the hundreds and hundreds of boat buyers truly feel. Add to that the confusion as to what is a broker and who is a boat dealer and then the massive value differences of the guy who has just bought a Wilson Flyer from someones front garden to the chap who has just purchased a 6 month old Trideck along with what each expects along the way and it makes more and more nonsense.
Just adding an edit here as I think my peers on here will also agree that it makes no difference if the purchaser is buying a £10K fishing boat or a £1m+ super yacht, they still deserve the same respect.

You seriously think readers don't know how to answer a simple question or two ?

I have had a bad experience when dealing with a broker
I have not had a bad experience when dealing with a broker

Not sure how i could have phrased that any clearer. It's also possible to not answer that question, or to tick both selections. Maybe you had a bad experience with one and a good one with another, many do.

Looking at the results, i suspect some people did tick both options.

I'm pretty sure everyone here knows what a client account is.

I would be all up for anything to make the buying process safer and easier than it is IF it didn't make it harder and more complicated than it already is or make it cost prohibitive. That said, apart from your bad experience I am yet to see any real evidence of skullduggery.

Doesn't need to be any harder or more expensive for the honest brokers. Regulation could be as simple as compulsory membership of one of the two existing bodies (ABYA or BMF), and abiding by a set of rules, not guidelines or recommendations, but rules.

It really isn't hard and as an honest broker, you should be encouraging any steps to ensure[b/] the rest of the industry is (and appears to be) equally honest.

 

[gjgm]

Regulation could be as simple as compulsory membership of one of the two existing bodies (ABYA or BMF), and abiding by a set of rules, not guidelines or recommendations, but rules.

Under what law are you going to enforce that to sell a boat I have to register with one of these bodies?
I note the legal services board budget has a compensation fund of a bit over £2 mio.
Chip in would be boat buyers; I dont know how much we might need, but someones got to pay for this.
If the buyer wants protection for his money, I suggest he is the one to pay.

 

[hlb]

I'm still waiting for a call from Boat Shed. I did leave my number on their A/phone.

 

[aquapower]

I'm still waiting for a call from Boat Shed. I did leave my number on their A/phone.

If I were you I would keep hold of your boat and then you cant get shafted by a rogue broker

 

[PaulGooch]

Under what law are you going to enforce that to sell a boat I have to register with one of these bodies?
I note the legal services board budget has a compensation fund of a bit over £2 mio.
Chip in would be boat buyers; I dont know how much we might need, but someones got to pay for this.
If the buyer wants protection for his money, I suggest he is the one to pay.

The poll makes no reference to a compensation scheme.

I asks if people feel they are adequately protected and if they would like brokers to be regulated. I've never suggested, here or anywhere else that there should be a compensation scheme.

At the moment, a brokers doesn't even have to have a client account, he can keep the money under his pillow if he wants.

All i've suggested is a fair and consistent system that adequately protects buyers and sellers. The only people who really should be campaigning against that is shoddy brokers.

Also note, i have never suggested any brokers are thieves. But, some are clearly not giving good service. Whilst it might be hard to regulate against daylight robbers, it's not so hard to ensure an industry provides a satisfactory level of service. Other industries manage.

 

[PaulGooch]

If I were you I would keep hold of your boat and then you cant get shafted by a rogue broker

Along with all the other industry individuals with an axe to grind, you totally miss the point.

It isn't that a broker is going to steal his boat, it's that brokers (not all of course) are providing a level of service that buyers and sellers alike find unsatisfactory.

Is your answer to the criticism your industry is receiving really to laugh and take the piss ? No wonder you're getting such bad press.