Boat Builders and the Credit Crunch

Kennedy's assassination was a conspiracy involving 2 or more gunmen

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I wonder if we will see take-overs from middle east / far east / India, giving them instant product / market for very little money.

We then end up importing what was a net export before ?

Brian
 
Dave

Not to bad, bit like walking on ice, never sure what the next step will be. Would prefer to see Tom and Frank at the helm right now !!

Have a load of new stuff ready, and a new website in production, so see what happens by Spring.

Afraid only time is going to tell.

Brian
 
But hang on, if a non UK owner buys a "UK" boatbuilder that doesn't suddenly make the boats imports.

Remember, Fairline and Princess were till recently owned by a South African/US private individual. Now both are owned by funds that are a mix of UK and non UK capital, though Fairline's mix is mostly UK capital. Sealine is US owned but there are plenty of UK shareholders on Brunswick's register so it is partly UK owned. And even before Brunswick bought Sealine, it was muchly US owned as Graphite's (the previous owners) capital was made up od significant US pension fund money

But as I say this ownership has no impact on the import/export nature of the product
 
It does if they make them in China or India, look at MG Rover, and the number of companies bought by China and shipped out in containers.

Brian
 
The GM comparison to UK boatbuilders is invalid. GM are going bust because they have the wrong products, huge healthcare & pension liabilities and vast fixed overheads. I read this morning that their working capital requirement is $11bn! None of this compares to FairSeaPrinSeeker.

Sealine have taken a view its going to be bad for some while and decided to radically downsize to take a large chunk of cost out of the business. They have some excellent products, and short of Brunswick going pop big time, (and depending on how the business and financing is structured that may not spell the end anyway), I would expect them to survive. I do think Sealine need to sharpen their pricing a bit to offer the value they've been known for. The fall in Sterling should help them as their EU and especially US competitor products will be going up in price.

IMO Fairline are at just as much risk as their pricing is ambitious, bordering on the ridiculous, and their short time working implies they're clearly light on orders. I wonder how many potential customers are put off by their barricades at boat shows vs the open stand policy almost everywhere else. I think the January boat shows will be critical for Fairline.
 
I think they will all survive...but the only one looking even slightly similar to today will be Sunseeker! Mind you Sunseeker will continue to phase out their smaller craft. The hawk 43 will go, then the Portofino 46 so that all craft are 50ft or over. They will then produce less boats but bigger ones!

I think Brunswick will end up doing a 'Fire Sale' at some stage to shore up their cash flow and Sealine seems the obvious choice to sell on as it is in Europe and imports minimum boats into the USA. Sealine just does not fit strategically as well as the other brands they own. I also think that sealine could find a great new owner......so Sealine will survive!

Fairline will need to look long and hard at what they produce! I think they will split into two divisions. Private yachts (craft over 20m) and sports boat division. They will phase out the smaller Flybridges and focus on a new range of Targas. I also think they will be forced to go back to a 30ft boat...to rebuild brand loyalty and get people back into fairline. Pricing will of course be key.

Princess will just reduce production and cut out non-profitable models.

All IMHO

Paul /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
 
are Fairline overpriced? I dont know, bcz, as you say, its impossible to get onto their boats at the shows! They certainly like to claim superior fit out. All I would observe is that step ups in quality arent linear in price. Whether that step up equates to value, may, or may not be relevent to an individual.
I m not familiar with the brand; but I m not immediately convinced that price is the determining factor.
 
I dont think they are over priced at all, well, not anywhere near my end of the market.

I have been offered a brand new Targa 38 for £210k inc VAT. Compare that to the Beneteau Monte Carlo at £185k inc VAT - and thats before you have to pay £1000 for the windscreen wiper.

Having been on both, its very obviuos where the extra money goes, and by the time you spec the benny up to Fairline standard spec the gap is not so big.
 
i was using GM as an example. the auto industry on its knees because nobody is buying new cars. therefore even less likely to buy boats. These Russian oligarchs all doing their n*ts too as they all levered to hilt and guess what they suspended trading in Russia again today and rouble gettin smoked so sunseekers uber yachts going to suffer soon too. nuf said!
 
but are you comparing a Fairline offer price with a Beneteau list price? Also, I wouldn't really expect a French boat to be competitive at current fx rates, it's the comparison to other British boats that's relevant.

I think another issue for Fairline may be that their hardtops aren't particularly desirable. They make great open boats and flybridge's, but most of the market seems to want hardtops. I'd be interested to see comparative sales numbers for T44 vs V45, and T64 vs, V65/V70.
 
Stuey - Okay fair enough, though I think the problems with the US big 3 car makers are a bit unique to them. Toyota can't make Priuses nearly fast enough to meet US demand...

Jez - Interesting that Fairline are heavily discounting. What would the list be on that Targa 38?
 
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I dont think they are over priced at all, well, not anywhere near my end of the market.

I have been offered a brand new Targa 38 for £210k inc VAT. Compare that to the Beneteau Monte Carlo at £185k inc VAT - and thats before you have to pay £1000 for the windscreen wiper.

Having been on both, its very obviuos where the extra money goes, and by the time you spec the benny up to Fairline standard spec the gap is not so big.

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price reduction for the Targa 38 occured last Summer because of smaller d4 engine options, now she is competitive that is true, but other models pricing are riduclious IMO, the 55 Squadron is one of them ok quality is good, but you dont have solid veeneers on that boat I think its too much

dont agree on Sunseeker cutting down the smaller sub 50 model I think they need to requalify it with a nice 42 ft sport cruiser to compete, the 47 Portofino is a boat that makes 100% profit for them as it is in the end a modified 44 Camargue, now they also offer it with IPS, these models are important for Sunseejer as they have always have been there blood, would be bad decision to stop them
 
Quote: "you dont have solid veeneers"

That's a bit of a myth. Veneer as opposed to solid wood does not imply inferior quality. On the contrary, veneering is often the right thing to do with woods can means higher quality. Chippendale and Linley use(d) veneers extensively, as do de Vries. Indeed, if you were secifiying the very best furniture in the world with no price limit you would likely specify some veneered compnents.

Real wood veneer, as opposed to printed melamine, is of course a prerequisite for quality! The Sq55 veneer is real wood!
 
Hi i am very surprised indeed with the poll so far,quality will allways sell,i believe fairline to be the best of this bunch&with a little price adjustment should weather any storm(excuse pun)&yes i do have a failine myself,regards m m 1.
 
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Also, I wouldn't really expect a French boat to be competitive at current fx rates, it's the comparison to other British boats that's relevant.


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Yes but the other side of this coin is that, given the current value of the £ against the $ and the €, foreign buyers should be finding Fairline and Sealine products a lot cheaper than last year and since, at least in the case of Fairline, most sales are export, this must be very worrying for the company
 
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foreign buyers should be finding Fairline and Sealine products a lot cheaper than last year and since, at least in the case of Fairline, most sales are export, this must be very worrying for the company

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Not quite with you, shouldn't they be pleased that their prices will seem reasonable to overseas buyers? Or are you saying that as their sales are weak even with an exchange rate advantage, they're in trouble?
 
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