Boat builder wants to end red diesel!

[Gludy]

Re: Go back to your boat yard and build boats

Hurricane
In Henry's world all he has to do is tax you to the hilt so that you will look at his cats in a new way and fall in love where their breakthrough hull design (the facts that cats have been made for thousands of years is beside the point) .... after a number of tax hikes they may look really attractive and Henry may even get a knighthood for saving the planet! (The fact that he only campaigned on 0.0001% of the red diesel market is not important )

Mind you if that world ever came about, then maybe, just maybe some other boat manufacturer making cats or a mono hull manufacturer adding cats to their range may just be capable of scraping past Henry's breakthrough technology and making one that you like. But not to worry because even though Henry has stood there as a paragon of eco virtue clothed in his eco flag and probably beating his back with a handful of nettles waiting for his far sighted vision to come about - his business will go bust because others just made cats that look nice - and many do already. He never the less will have seen through his vision.

 

[SP2]

Re: Go back to your boat yard and build boats

[ QUOTE ]
However, once diesel is taxed at the same rate whether used in an ATV or a boat, the pressure to develop new, more environmentally-friendly ways of enjoying the UK marine environment will grow.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, Henry, if it ever comes to needing a more environmentally-friendly way to enjoy my boating I will get one of those saily boats and have my motive power for free (unless we should have a wind tax - what do you think?)

For the moment I will stick to my sad old mono hull.

As for enjoying the UK marine environment, I suggest that leisure customers (that would be those apparently stupid people who pay boat builders to build their boats) may look at design, build quality and a host of other things rather than whether a cat is environmentally friendly.

Leisure boating is not compulsory and we chose to spend hard earned money on an industry of which you are part. The exercise of free will in the choice of our boats will mean that unless you actually get a product that people want to buy because it looks fabulous (in their eyes) then you just don't stand a chance.

Personally having followed the debate I am still unclear whether you see environmental protection or the growth of your business as the prime reason for your stance. Since I believe the first of these is not a realistic goal given all the other pollutants which are of much greater significance in this world then my feeling is that your approach is purely because you see greater profit in it. Most of us are profit driven and that is fine in my book, but at least be honest about it and do not dress up your stance on some false eco premise.

 

[office_sailor]

I think I get this...

Ok. I might be a little slow, but I think I've got this right - here's how I see it -

1. Henry has tried to get a tax increase on fuel, which may potentially result in him selling more boats, on the basis that they are more economical.

2. The forum felt that a tax increase may not be entirely appropriate, and may in fact significantly damage the industry. A few people were irritated at the suggestion that they pay even more tax.

3. Henry (who works in the boat industry) says "I will whip up a coalition of campaign groups to debate my comments that the polluter boat industry and their fellow-travellers will regret".

I know where I'd avoid if buying a boat. Still haven't seen any of the cat v equivalent mono fuel data Henry suggested debating...

 

[compie1]

Re: I think I get this...

Yesterday i explaned this post to my son, his first reaction was: "this man is crazy, doesnt he want to sell his boats" ? Nicolas is only 9...

 

[Gludy]

Re: I think I get this...

Perhaps on of Henry's great comments was that:-
""I will whip up a coalition of campaign groups to debate my comments that the polluter boat industry and their fellow-travellers will regret"

His comments??? What comments he has simply stated that he is doing it for his own company - he has not in anyway commented or debated the issues.

He seems to think that he has power beyond the means of his small business and it is a small business - anyone can check its size, accounts etc its all public info. He seems himself as whipping up a colaition of groups - wow he has entered the stage of delusion - or maybe he was always deluded. I am not sure.

If you Henry will not debate your comments why do you think others would do better?

If you had any merit you would have used this forum to listen and learn from. There is a much wider range of experience here than anything you or I can possibly experience alone. Instead you have managed to act in a most disgraceful way in pinching environmental clothes and using them for your own gain.

How much energy Henry goes into making those huge solar panels that you have on those eco friendly boat designs on your web site?

Henry you are part of the "polluter boat industry" you just do not have the understanding of life to see it.

What has upset folks here is not any eco argument that you have failed to put forward - had you debated the eco nature of cats here you would have learnt a lot - a good MD would have done just that, no what has upset people is that you are trying to gain personally by adding costs to others and trying to use a bandwagon situation to do it - you do not even have the decency to debate the issues.

 

[DAKA]

Re: I think I get this...

[ QUOTE ]
There is a much wider range of experience here than anything I can possibly experience alone./quote]


I just wanted to frame that bit, are you going soft ? /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

 

[D3B]

Re: Go back to your boat yard and build boats

Like many others i have watched the progress of this one.

I am now amazed at the further profiteering Henry thinks he will gain from:
"What I am going to do is see if I can interest a decent environmental campaigning group with far more experience of making a case and far closer links to government than I have, to take this on."

So he will ask mostly "charitable organisations" to campaign on his behalf to increase his business.
Will you be returning the extra profit to the enviromental campaigning group?

Hey ho! I never thought of that as a way of improving my business. Tell the tree huggers not to worry about the timber used. we can tax it so much that we can grow more trees from the income.

When was taxation ever spent on any more than government waste. especially this lot!

 

[wakeup]

Re: I think I get this...

Surely the problem (if we assume Henry is right) lies with the boat builders not the users. So why not tax the boat builders. The more hulls the more tax they pay!! /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

 

[Gludy]

Re: I think I get this...

no Daka not soft

At least I stand my ground ..... thats all ...... go ahead and frame ... its true /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

 

[Gludy]

Re: I think I get this...

Good idea but really we should have a level playing field and ensure that boat builders that build passenger boats have a tax imposed on each boat that equates to the 'subsidy on red' they will receive over the life of the boat hence making the boat on a level playing field with road transport. Say a 100% value of the boat tax - even that would be low. To do other than this and allow cheap diesel to be used by these passenger carrying boats which are part of that naughty 'polluting boat industry' would simply not be fair to taxis, buses etc.

The other forms of passenger travel pay a fair whack of tax in every mile they do ..... so they may not know it yet but I think the happy times are up for this type of naughty boat builder. I think I will whip up my local primary school in support of my case -after all they can argue it far better than me and maybe they can get all primary schools in the land to join in and stop this injustice once and for all. After all they have had a good run.

 

[wakeup]

Re: I think I get this...

Yep this would be great for the second hand boat market, but I guess pretty bad for Eco Wotsits boats inc.

 

[Major Catastrophe]

Re: I think I get this...

To put it simply.
Henry wants leisure boater to pay fuel tax, as do leisure car drivers.

<span style="color:red">I fully agree with that. Well done Henry </span>

<span style="color:black">But, you have to give a trade off. As every commercial truck and bus in the country pays full fuel tax, I will agree to Leisure boaters paying the full tax if you agree that commercial and passenger carrying boats should also pay full fuel tax.

It is as simple as that.

Do you agree, Henry? </span>

 

[henrymayhew]

Re: I think I get this...

Thank you all once again for your comments - apart from Gludy who resorts to childish personal abuse. You naughty boy!

I would love to be able to agree that tax should go up on commercial vehicles and boats because that seems to be being demanded by various posters including my only supporter - thanks for the support Maj!

However, I can't do that because to make and deliver products or services often requires a lot of transportation. Not enjoys having a lot of transportation, requires it. Therefore, to put tax on commercial use would significantly raise the cost of goods and services needed by the poorest members of society. I am against that. I truly hope that answers your question Gludy.

On a final note: It has been pointed out to me that I have been insufficiently clear that I am in favour of promoting all kinds of environmentally-friendly boats, not just those made by my company. They could be displacement monohulls, other catamarans such as those represented by the excellent Mr Aspey, or hybrids.

Without necessarily wishing to go through another tedious round of abuse, we will be posting much more information on environmental issues relating to boating and boatbuilding on the ecocats.com website over coming weeks. We might even set up a debate forum for you all to enjoy!

Thanks for posting and thanks for reading.

 

[No1_Moose]

Re: I think I get this...

so your saying that everybody should be allowed to fly off on their holiday using cheap aviation fuel, that supports your eco stance nicely doesn't it! yes.

 

[henrymayhew]

Re: I think I get this...

No, but I can't bear to go back to the days when only the rich had nice holidays.

 

[RupertW]

Re: I think I get this...

I think Henry's marketing may be disastrous but will agree with MajorCatastrophe too. I'm in favour of carbon taxes if applied more or less equally to production as well as usage and across aviation, trains and cars and boats.

Removing red diesel is a step in the right direction, but overkill for the good it would do, and tiny compared to the flights I take advantage of to go off and do something raggie.

I don't really think most leisure mobos are thinking of immediate environmental impact so Henry may be just as bit misguided - if you want to feel environmental when boating you'd sail, and the only true environmentalist is somebody with an ancient wooden sailing boat who lives within walking distance.

An ecocat mobo seems a bit like a 7 seater sports convertible - kind of misses the point.

 

[henrymayhew]

Re: I think I get this...

I realise that reductio ad adsurdam the above statement is illogical, but would argue that there is a stronger moral imperative to allowing families to go on foreign holidays than boatowners to blast about using massive amounts of fuel when there is a more environmentally friendly alternative (not just from my company!). Also, I am not stopping them in the way that a rise in tax on aircraft fuel could stop families going away, just arguing for it to be a bit more expensive to do so. You can't go on half a flight, but you can drive your boat slower or get a less polluting one.

 

[henrymayhew]

Re: I think I get this...

Two supporters.

 

[Gludy]

Re: I think I get this...

Gosh - after 150 posts he answers a simple question!

[ QUOTE ]
However, I can't do that because to make and deliver products or services often requires a lot of transportation. Not enjoys having a lot of transportation, requires it. Therefore, to put tax on commercial use would significantly raise the cost of goods and services needed by the poorest members of society. I am against that. I truly hope that answers your question Gludy.


[/ QUOTE ]
Yes you have answered the question now you have to account for the answer. So lets just examine the world according to Henry:-

" to make and deliver products or services often requires a lot of transportation."

True Henry - so to make and deliver DVD.s or power boats for that matter involves a lot of transportation in the cost - so what? You want low tax on the tansport that makes the power boat and high tax on the fuel to use it??

Today government taxes a lot of this transportation highly with high road fuel taxes - so are you against all these taxes on the industry/services? So what you must mean is that its only wrong to highly tax commercial boats!!!!!????? Not in my back garden Henry?

"Therefore, to put tax on commercial use would significantly raise the cost of goods "

But as stated this does happen - trucks, buses etc pay a high rate of tax and yes it does raise the cost of these goods ......... but your passenger boats have an unfair advantage because they use low tax fuel - so why not making it a level playing field? Why not tax your boats so that they compete on a level playing field with their terrestrial competition?

Then Henry you enter the role of that government assumes - the distribution of wealth with this statement:-
"raise the cost of goods and services needed by the poorest members of society"

So are you campaigning to reduce road fuel tax to the same level as red diesel now so that the poor can have cheaper goods?

Your understanding of how the economy works is poorer than the average 9 year old, it seems you really have no understanding at all.

If you were really concerned about using tax to help the environment then you would be focusing on the parts that damage the environment and commercial use in boats accounts for well over 100 times that from leisure boaters.

In your world its OK for your passenger boat to take holiday makers seal watching as that is commerce and not leisure. But if I take family and friend seal watching that to be taxed to the hilt? In your world its OK to have high tax on transport providing its not the transport you sell?

This last post of yours demonstrates once again that you have not thought through a single issue on your campaign. In fairness you seem to lack that capability.

I now formally give up with you. You are simply stupid and selfish to boot and I have no intention of bringing you any more publicity. I am happy that you have managed to damage yourself already ... there is no point in continuing.
Cheerio Henry

 

[Hurricane]

Re: I think I get this...

There's a hole in my bucket.
Dear Henry
Dear Henry
There's a hole in my bucket.
Dear Henry
Dear Henry

Perhaps not in his bucket but his philosophy.