Boat Buddies. Illegal Charters or not?

[DAKA]

Dare I pose a question please just in case any one hasnt got it yet.............

How much (ball park) is a fine and legal costs for admitting 'mates charter' ?

say fine £5k legal fees £5 k = £10k


How much for defending a case , when we all know mca will spend their annual budget on maintaining the current situation.
Ball park would £20k - £30k cover it ?

Roughly how many £15 fuel contributions to cover the legal fees ?

 

[Grey-Viking]

I've been reading this thread with interest, I'm the charter skipper who posed the question originally on the other forum.

I'd like to ask the learned members here for their opinion on the precise situation that started the debate in the first place.

1. A member on the other forum posted up a charity auction.

2. The prize was a fishing trip for a group of 5 anglers.

3. The auction was open to any forum member to bid on.

4. A group won the auction with a bid of I think £300. The money raised is obviously donated to the charity in question.

In this scenario is it the case that:

a) Nothing is wrong with it as the skipper made no financial gain etc

or

b) There was charter fee of £300 exchanged for a fishing trip for 5 people - the fact that the fee was donated to charity is immaterial?

I'd be extremely interested on your views on this very specific scenario?

 

[jfm]

Yeah your numbers feel right as far as it goes. But the point isn't the money; it's the criminal record. Most people just don't want a crim record. Think about how you'll tick all the boxes on the long green bit of cardboard as you fly to the US, for example? For folks who work in financial stuff, the damage to your business from having a crim record is way bigger than the numbers you cite

Coding is cheaper. If you equip your boat well to start with, i mean if your view is that regardless of coding your boat shoud have proper liferafts and proper safety gear, then the incremental cost of coding can be something like £1000, which is mostly surveyor's fees. Virtually every requirement on the coding of boats is sensible safety gear that crusing boaters ought to have anyway

 

[PaulGooch]

Dont worry about it , Paul can just tell the MCA that their grass was mentally deranged

Why do you keep doing this Pete ? I keep saying i don't advertise for people to come on my boat, but you keep making references to my insurance, the MCA and my "mates charters" ?

What's the matter with you ?

 

[DAKA]

Just a thought

Freindship test

There have been a lot of questions regarding the term friend so I thought I would share my thoughts on the subject

If you have 5 "mates "on your boat ask yourself how many of them will be happy to chuck £15 in the fuel kitty, 5 I should hope.

And ask yourself how many of them will chuck in £2000 to help out with the legal fees/fine .

 

[PaulGooch]

See post 34 above

The second word is "off", you can choose the first one from a large selection.

I fear you've lost the plot, i have not got the faintest idea why you keep addressing posts to me.

 

[R1chB1ch]

Another angle...

Have you considered the outcome if something happens to one of these 'contributing friends' on the trip? It may all be pally pally but if an accident occurs in today's society where there's blame, there's usually a claim.... If the 'friend' joined the trip as a result of an advert on a forum and doesn't really know you what loyalty do they have towards you - none me thinks and god help if something serious happened, there would be an angry family to contend with as well.

 

[epervier]

Doug - You kinda took the words out of my mouth! I think defining friendships is difficult to do but we all know it when we see it.

Example. I knock about on here a bit and have gotten to know and like a few other forumites, some of whom I've met and some I haven't.

Late one night I post that tomorrow I'm going to the Folly with my brother-in-law for a few beers and for reasons based on the dynamics of late night social networking a cunning plan is hatched whereby, let's say, epervier, jimmy_the_builder and moodynick are all stood on the dock at 7am the next morning looking thirsty. Off we go and sadly the trip ends with us firmly wedged on the Bramble Bank and an insurance claim.

The insurers decide to get jiggy and save themselves a bit of cash by saying that it was an illegal charter.

The MCA decides to prosecute.

I say, don't be daft it's just me and a bunch of mates off for a jolly. Better navigators than I have hit the Bramble Bank and better navigators than I will hit it again in the future.

So let's look at the facts as they relate to friendships:

#1 - my b-i-l. Well, I've known him for nearly thirty years; whether I like him is another matter (joke).

#2 - moodynick - I bump into him regularly and we often chat.

#3 - jtb. I've met him and his delightful other half and had helpful advice on sourcing odd sized nuts and bolts.

#4 - epervier. Never met him. But known him on this forum for years. I know his boat and we have swapped comments about similar boats we have each owned in the past.

No group of 12 good men and true is going to say this is not, as I have argued, a group of friends out for a party. If all four have chipped in to the price of fuel, lunch, beer or not it isn't going to change anything.

Contrast the position where the four crew are people who have answered an ad and have paid the cost of the trip.

I think if we imagine ourselves as the jury we know what we'd think.



With apologies to all of the above forumites whose names have been taken in vain.

Good Moring Martin,

I was waiting from 0630 -0730 at Berthon you were a no show along with JTB, I know it was too early for Nick, and I don't know what your BIL looks like, was it the wrong day?

I was really looking forward to lunch at the Folly, Entrecôte saignant, frites, your treat! I was only chipping in for the diesel, in any case coming from Lymo to Cowes we shouldn't have been anywhere near the Brambles, WTF went wrong? I'm gutted, I'm getting in touch with;-

http://www.underdog.co.uk/?ref=google-brand&gclid=CIippPzXwbMCFUfJtAodYSoAYw

See you in court.

 

[benjenbav]

Good Moring Martin,

I was waiting from 0630 -0730 at Berthon you were a no show along with JTB, I know it was too early for Nick, and I don't know what your BIL looks like, was it the wrong day?

I was really looking forward to lunch at the Folly, Entrecôte saignant, frites, your treat! I was only chipping in for the diesel, in any case coming from Lymo to Cowes we shouldn't have been anywhere near the Brambles, WTF went wrong? I'm gutted, I'm getting in touch with;-

http://www.underdog.co.uk/?ref=google-brand&gclid=CIippPzXwbMCFUfJtAodYSoAYw

See you in court.

Ah! Well at least I didn't get you stuck on the Bramble Bank! But seriously, we ought to go for it one day. Will pm my mobile.

 

[Capt Popeye]

suggest that if a Skipper advertises (in any way) for 'others' to accompany him (her) on a Angling Trip and each share in the Days costs, it would be regarded as a Business Venture. No question!

could not a group of 'like minded' people (who might become friends) each buy a Share in a Boat and therefore each is responsible for the 'running costs' as agreed?

 

[DAKA]

suggest that if a Skipper advertises (in any way) for 'others' to accompany him (her) on a Angling Trip and each share in the Days costs, it would be regarded as a Business Venture. No question!

could not a group of 'like minded' people (who might become friends) each buy a Share in a Boat and therefore each is responsible for the 'running costs' as agreed?

Not sure and need input from jfm , tranona or similar but the problem with 'like minded' is that they might all be like minded idiots and as soon as any one of them decides to take the 'mates charter scam cash' they could all end up with a criminal record or at least loose their boat as the Insurance is invalidated .

NB
I am not certain on this and it shouldnt be taken as a statement.

 

[DAKA]

I've been reading this thread with interest, I'm the charter skipper who posed the question originally on the other forum.

I'd like to ask the learned members here for their opinion on the precise situation that started the debate in the first place.

1. A member on the other forum posted up a charity auction.

2. The prize was a fishing trip for a group of 5 anglers.

3. The auction was open to any forum member to bid on.

4. A group won the auction with a bid of I think £300. The money raised is obviously donated to the charity in question.

In this scenario is it the case that:

a) Nothing is wrong with it as the skipper made no financial gain etc

or

b) There was charter fee of £300 exchanged for a fishing trip for 5 people - the fact that the fee was donated to charity is immaterial?

I'd be extremely interested on your views on this very specific scenario?

In my opinion the answer is split twofold

a)

Insurance is void.

jfm might be able to get a claim paid out eventually but the legal fees could well cost more than the value of the boat.

b)

Even if the insurers were contacted first and they agreed to cover the one off charity event (if they did they would almost certainly ask for the boat to be coded or at least code compliant).

The fact that money has been requested risks the MCA going to prosecute.
The MCA will set the fine at a level where it is cheaper to pay the fine , than defend the fine.

 

[Tranona]

Not sure and need input from jfm , tranona or similar but the problem with 'like minded' is that they might all be like minded idiots and as soon as any one of them decides to take the 'mates charter scam cash' they could all end up with a criminal record or at least loose their boat as the Insurance is invalidated .

NB
I am not certain on this and it shouldnt be taken as a statement.

If they own shares in the boat then none of this arises. They are owners. Many boats are syndicate owned with shared costs. Each of the owners ( who don't need to be friends - indeed might not even know who the others are) can operate the boat on their own, take their family and friends out - just the same as a single owner.

Whether it is worth setting up such an arrangement to avoid being considered a charter boat is another matter.

 

[DAKA]

If they own shares in the boat then none of this arises. They are owners. Many boats are syndicate owned with shared costs. Each of the owners ( who don't need to be friends - indeed might not even know who the others are) can operate the boat on their own, take their family and friends out - just the same as a single owner.

Whether it is worth setting up such an arrangement to avoid being considered a charter boat is another matter.

Thank you I understand that

Lets just suppose any one of the 'syndicate' decides to advertise and takes cash for an internet advert, will the mca prosecute the one individual or could the mca go after all the owoners ?

 

[jfm]

Whether it is worth setting up such an arrangement to avoid being considered a charter boat is another matter.

Understatement of the year Tanona! That's a bit like saying the best way to pay no tax is to make no money. A true statement, but not a great solution when you stand back from it.

Rather than take folks out for thirty quid and have to give them ownership to avoid jail, I think I'd just not bother!

 

[jfm]

will the mca prosecute the one individual or could the mca go after all the owoners ?

As a matter of law, all of the owners plus the captain would be guilty of the offence, if one has been committed

 

[Tranona]

Understatement of the year Tanona! That's a bit like saying the best way to pay no tax is to make no money. A true statement, but not a great solution when you stand back from it.

Rather than take folks out for thirty quid and have to give them ownership to avoid jail, I think I'd just not bother!

I know - just thought I would throw it in to emphasise that trying to be smart is not always a good thing.

 

[Doug_Stormforce]

I've been reading this thread with interest, I'm the charter skipper who posed the question originally on the other forum.

I'd like to ask the learned members here for their opinion on the precise situation that started the debate in the first place.

1. A member on the other forum posted up a charity auction.

2. The prize was a fishing trip for a group of 5 anglers.

3. The auction was open to any forum member to bid on.

4. A group won the auction with a bid of I think £300. The money raised is obviously donated to the charity in question.

In this scenario is it the case that:

a) Nothing is wrong with it as the skipper made no financial gain etc

or

b) There was charter fee of £300 exchanged for a fishing trip for 5 people - the fact that the fee was donated to charity is immaterial?

I'd be extremely interested on your views on this very specific scenario?

If you sell a skippered charter you are acting commercially, the fact that you are giving the proceeds to charity does not make a blind bit of difference, you ate still selling (auctioning) a skippered charter.

Contary to a number of posters, I have always felt the rules here very straightforward. Trying to call strangers friends is not going to get you round the law. We all know what friends are and we all know what customers are, if there is any doubt in your mind then ask yourself what your passengers will regard them-self as when being interviewed following an accident on board your boat.

 

[Grey-Viking]

If you sell a skippered charter you are acting commercially, the fact that you are giving the proceeds to charity does not make a blind bit of difference, you ate still selling (auctioning) a skippered charter.

Contary to a number of posters, I have always felt the rules here very straightforward. Trying to call strangers friends is not going to get you round the law. We all know what friends are and we all know what customers are, if there is any doubt in your mind then ask yourself what your passengers will regard them-self as when being interviewed following an accident on board your boat.

That was my take on it too, but there has been a very vocal counter argument presented on the other forum quoting this line of the law:

"on a voyage or excursion which is one for which the owner does not receive money for or in connection with operating the vessel or carrying any person"

The counter argument is that the owner didn't receive any money (as it went straight to charity)........

 

[Doug_Stormforce]

That was my take on it too, but there has been a very vocal counter argument presented on the other forum quoting this line of the law:

"on a voyage or excursion which is one for which the owner does not receive money for or in connection with operating the vessel or carrying any person"

The counter argument is that the owner didn't receive any money (as it went straight to charity)........

I am not a lawyer but i don't think a court is going to allow charter companies to hire out their boats and skipper simply by getting the customers to pay the fees to a third party.

Charities have to comply with the law just like the rest of us!

Coding regulations have been put in place to protect the general public when the pay for a charter. The safety equipment that must be carried and the training that is required to comply with manning requirements are based on what the MCA have learnt from previous accidents.

If you donate you fees to charity you do not suddenly become exempt from fire, grounding, abandonment etc. You and your passengers face the same problems as everyone else that goes to sea. If the auction is selling a skippered charter then the charter surely needs to comply with the law.