Boat Brokers the Good The Bad and The Ugly

[Dutch01527]

I did not have survey on my recent boat purchase because of the cost vs boat value (about 5%) and the small print of surveyors terms of business. However I did download a check list and did a though amateur check myself. I also had a sea trial and paid a marine engineer to do an engine check (compression ect).

Both the marine engineer and myself did not pick up a intermittent fault on the gear box in reverse, the only major fault discovered post sale, The fix was reasonably cheap so I am happy with the decisions made.

 

[sailaboutvic]

I did not have survey on my recent boat purchase because of the cost vs boat value (about 5%) and the small print of surveyors terms of business. However I did download a check list and did a though amateur check myself. I also had a sea trial and paid a marine engineer to do an engine check (compression ect).

Both the marine engineer and myself did not pick up a intermittent fault on the gear box in reverse, the only major fault discovered post sale, The fix was reasonably cheap so I am happy with the decisions made.

I don't think you missed out on any thing .
This last boat we agree with our insurance that we would get the underneath, keel and rudder surveyed and we would do the rest , they supplied us with a list of stuff they wanted us to self surveyed , the rigging was one but we plain to change it anyway .
Most of us that been around boats long enough don't need to pay someone hundreds to tell us sea cocks need changing or fire extinguisher are out to date .
Really important stuff like engines and rigging are only surveyed by looking and listening to , I never seen a surveyor climb a mast and most will only run the engine if that to see if it smoke on there is any unusual noises .
You need a engineer if you want to have a engine or gearbox checked out .
And in the end any problems and you very likely not have any come back because of the small print.
But going back to the OP he hasn't got any experience or knowledge by the sound of things regarding boats , in which case a survey would had been his best approach and not relied on the broker being a honesty guy .

 

[Crisby]

Well done.

Unless the engine is a professionally fitted new (or almost new) one I couldn't bring myself to buy a boat without hearing the engine run (properly).

With an owner or agent withholding the right to start the engine I too would walk. I would see that as they were trying to conceal something like an engine defect. I wouldn't buy a car without hearing run either, unless it was new and had a dealer warranty.

Can anyone here place their hand on their hearts and say they are happy to make an offer and pay a deposit for a boat prior to starting the engine?

Well, yes, I just did. However,

We have been aware of this boat for a year or so, had several months communication with the owner and only paid a small (5%) deposit, which was subject to survey and the engine serviceability was part of that.

Unfortunately despite our explicit request the boat could not be launched for the survey and the engine not be run in the yard. The boat is in the med, the owner in Belgium and we’re in Vietnam, so not particularly straightforward. But having several months communication with the owner and a well respected surveyor means that all is not lost. We still expect to buy the boat but the price and timescale may change as we still need to be 100% sure that the engine is as described.

Not everything is black and white buying boats, especially long distance but good communication and a bit of common sense can surmount most problems. (But you have to know what those problems are!!)

 

[Balbas]

Fwiw I've bought 2 boats.

No 1 was a dinghy (wayfarer), my primary concern was that the trailer was safe for me to tow it home. When I put the boat in the water and it floated I was delighted!

No 2 was an old Westerly of very low value. I gave it a good going over, but still engaged a surveyor to have a look inspite of the cost being more than 10% of the price of the boat- he picked up another couple of things I would need to fix. However he didn't run the engine - the boat was on the hard and it would have been difficult to do so for a variety of reasons. Again I was delighted when she floated at crane in, and when we finally coaxed the engine into life and she gave us drive in forward and reverse I was ecstatic.

My point is that even on a very low value boat and as an inexperienced boat owner, I knew to engage the services of a surveyor. I also knew that they would not be able to tell me everything and so there would be an element of risk. I think the appropriate test is along the lines of 'what would a normal, reasonably prudent person think was a reasonable course of action?' And I think in your case engaging a surveyor (and probably insisting on a sea trial) would have been appropriate. Whether that excuses the vendor's agent not giving you truthful answers is a different question. But... better to avoid putting yourself in a position where you place any reliance on a sales agent (in any industry) imo - they get paid commission to get the widget sold, so some of them'll do anything to make the sale happen...

 

[Perrycas]

Is it possible to ask what a survey 'regularly' costs in the UK? Or do they vary a lot?

 

[Fr J Hackett]

They invariably charge on length the age will make little difference to their price, it is usually somewhere in the region of £10 to £15 per foot LOA. The prospective buyer is liable for all costs including making good of antifoul removal lift out storage and lift in etc.

 

[syvictoria]

Some surveyors aren't VAT registered, which can be a bonus!

 

[superheat6k]

Some surveyors aren't VAT registered, which can be a bonus!

And some have the fairies with them as they report defects which simply do not exist and generally exaggerate any they do find. Each and every one will have their very own 'Speciality' problem that they will highlight and the insurance company will demand be mitigated against.

At least two hull surveyors and one engine surveyor based on the south coast are now banned from any boat I own, even if it means a sale will fall through. This will actually save a would be buyer say £500 on Jokers Wild, and save me wasting time making arrangements for their nonsensical activities.

I have yet to see a survey report, where I have attended, even closely resemble the examinations undertaken and discussions held.

Especially entertaining was the recommendation from the Engine surveyor who, having failed to find fault with the engines which were at that time ~ 30 years old, that the buyer should lump the vendor ~ £3,000 per engine just in case. Unbelievable nonsense from that idiot, but as I say he is now banned.

 

[KompetentKrew]

They invariably charge on length the age will make little difference to their price, it is usually somewhere in the region of £10 to £15 per foot LOA. The prospective buyer is liable for all costs including making good of antifoul removal lift out storage and lift in etc.

I paid €1240 for 12 meters!

 

[sailaboutvic]

I paid €1240 for 12 meters!

I wish I could earn that for a days work

 

[KompetentKrew]

I wish I could earn that for a days work

Me too!

The PO was very impressed with him, though. "He found things on my boat that I didn't even know about!"

And he got me the price knocked down €3000 or €4000 too.

 

[Heckler]

And some have the fairies with them as they report defects which simply do not exist and generally exaggerate any they do find. Each and every one will have their very own 'Speciality' problem that they will highlight and the insurance company will demand be mitigated against.

At least two hull surveyors and one engine surveyor based on the south coast are now banned from any boat I own, even if it means a sale will fall through. This will actually save a would be buyer say £500 on Jokers Wild, and save me wasting time making arrangements for their nonsensical activities.

I have yet to see a survey report, where I have attended, even closely resemble the examinations undertaken and discussions held.

Especially entertaining was the recommendation from the Engine surveyor who, having failed to find fault with the engines which were at that time ~ 30 years old, that the buyer should lump the vendor ~ £3,000 per engine just in case. Unbelievable nonsense from that idiot, but as I say he is now banned.

My surveyor said the engine was an MD2030, 3 cylinders, 30 hp, in actual fact it is a four cylinder MD22 50 hp!

 

[dslittle]

No sea trial, the seller did not turn up twice and we only got the keys much later, after a family member went to the sellers house to get the engine keys.

You have my total sympathy. As others have said, legally you may struggle. Morally you are absolutely in the right. Unfortunately you have taken people at their word...
Again, as said by others, if you had used a surveyor and read the small print in a surveyors report you would wonder why you paid someone to give you peace of mind.
My limited experience of buying two boats and selling one gave me two totally different ‘broker’ experiences, one very good and one bad. The funny thing is that the very good was a small independent broker buying and then selling a lesser value boat and the bad a large established broker and a substantial transaction!!!
Yes, we only have your side of the story and perhaps there is a good defence for both the broker and the seller but I would feel equally aggrieved reading your account.
I hope that you do manage to get some redress.

 

[laika]

To be fair, a surveyor would most likely not pick up on faults with the engine.

To steer clear of the rights and wrongs of the OP's situation and just answer the question...I have bought exactly one boat, through Ancaster in plymouth. It wasn't entirely straightforward as the previous owner had passed away and there were probate issues but not only was I kept fully informed, I received lots of advice on the process of buying and renovating a boat which as a first time owner was invaluable, and continued to get good advice after the sale had completed. The broker did negotiate hard for the seller but after the deal was agreed it felt like he was working for me.

I didn't get a sea trial. I did have a survey which as well as being necessary for insurance gave me an after-purchase job list and more than paid for itself in re-negotiating the price. As Dukester points out above, the engine was not covered by the survey but I commissioned a separate engine survey. That got me a large chunk of the cost of a new engine off the price (the old one died on the way to be surveyed having been living on easy start for some time)

I was very very happy with the broker experience as a buyer although I'm guessing that beyond having a robust process and escrow account in place the extra steps are going to be down to individuals.

 

[emandvee44]

The last (and current) boat purchase was through Ancasta Haslar in 2008 and they were excellent. As it turned out the purchase was not straightforward due to the findings of our excellent surveyor. All was resolved with an appropriate discount to cover the work required, all monitored by our surveyor who signed off the work. Ancasta were very helpful all the way.
I think the initial survey cost about £500 - worth every penny.


I have an acquaintance who purchased a boat a couple of years ago without a survey and it has cost him many thousands (and he is still paying)

M.

 

[Towbarman]

I've now reached the point where I see a private sale as a good thing, and dealing with a broker as a total pain. It's only by speaking directly with the owner/seller that you actually get accurate information. Brokers are the estate agents of the sea.

Your not wrong !
Never trust a boat broker ! Or owner they can cover up and tell lies to get the sale
Then denie any knowledge off known faults both together
And don't trust a boat survey either use it as a very rough guide they are not responsible for anything they miss either as they did not see it at the time @
Or the classic while doing the survey I could not check the structure as poor access to this area here and there all over the boat ! So what are you really paying for ! I have had two bad experiences with YDSA Boat surveys keep away from them !

 

[harvey38]

Your not wrong !
Never trust a boat broker ! Or owner they can cover up and tell lies to get the sale
Then denie any knowledge off known faults both together
And don't trust a boat survey either use it as a very rough guide they are not responsible for anything they miss either as they did not see it at the time @
Or the classic while doing the survey I could not check the structure as poor access to this area here and there all over the boat ! So what are you really paying for ! I have had two bad experiences with YDSA Boat surveys keep away from them !

Welcome to the forum, not sure if you're aware but you're responding to a post over four years old

 

[Irish Rover]

Your not wrong !
Never trust a boat broker ! Or owner they can cover up and tell lies to get the sale
Then denie any knowledge off known faults both together
And don't trust a boat survey either use it as a very rough guide they are not responsible for anything they miss either as they did not see it at the time @
Or the classic while doing the survey I could not check the structure as poor access to this area here and there all over the boat ! So what are you really paying for ! I have had two bad experiences with YDSA Boat surveys keep away from them !

I'm not going to disagree with you about brokers. However, when I had a problem with a broker a few years back I contacted the YBDSA and they were more than helpful and gave the broker a few good kicks up the transom. I believe the YBDSA, the YDSA and the ABYA are sister organisations and share a common management and administration. All three have clear codes of practice and complaint procedures. I'd certainly recommend talking to them if you believe your broker and/or surveyor misled you or gave poor service.

 

[oldgit]

A boat is pile of metal and glassfibre held together with fastenings and adhesive doing its best to return to its basic components.
Leave it lying idle and it will carry on doing it without any input from you , use it and you merely find out a lot quicker.
Have never yet used a surveyor on boat purchase, one boat ( the first ) was an absolute crock the rest broke at variable rates.
The survey will probably reveal many of the the latent problems and at least give you a starting point of where to start spend money, more will appear at inconvenient intervals.
Do not be lulled into the myth that newer boats are more reliable, they might give you less fewer problems but they will be more complicated and cost more to rectify. ?

 

[nevis768]

Brokers are, in the marine field at least, mainly agents for the seller, acting on the seller's behalf - and paid by the seller. The only common case where this isn't the case is in some sales of new boats, where the broker may be the seller - but even for new boats, this isn't usual. The sale is legally a private sale in 99% of cases, and so not subject to many of the provisions of the Sale of Goods Act as you are buying from a private individual. Of course, if the SELLER knowingly makes false statements, then you have recourse against the seller - NOT the broker, who is probably merely passing on information from the seller. There is no onus on a broker to verify the sellers statements, though the better ones do!

In the situation you describe, you may well have a case - but the defendant would be the seller, not the broker, unless the broker was REALLY stupid and made false claims that weren't attributable to the seller.

Interestingly, I have have recently had a poor experience with a broker, but fortunately dropped out of the sale as I spotted a lack of integrity.
Two years ago I reported an estate agent to Trading standards about some blatant lies in a house description. I do a lot of building, DIY work so I wasn't caught out but I did it to protect others. Trading standards did prosecute the estate agent, and also the advert for the house was immediately changed because I emailed the estate agent with a copy of the email to trading standards.So, I don't think there is any doubt the broker could be prosecuted in the OP's case, and should be. In the end of the day the broker is responsible for what is on their website, because they put it there. Sadly, a lot of brokers/sellers will tell you any old crap to sell a boat, but there are also some very honest people about it. Buyer beware, make sure your bullshit radar is switched on to full power when buying a boat.