boat brands - prejudice or reality

[Stemar]

I rather think there were - and are - more Ford owners would have prefered a Roller than Roller owners who'd prefer a Ford.

Though, OTOH

 

[Frogmogman]

I rather think there were - and are - more Ford owners would have prefered a Roller than Roller owners who'd prefer a Ford.

Though, OTOH

Recent classic car auction results would tell you otherwise…

 

[Marsali_1]

I rather think there were - and are - more Ford owners would have prefered a Roller than Roller owners who'd prefer a Ford.

Though, OTOH

I like how they have kept costs low by having only one windscreen wiper and using cling film for the door windows.

 

[Dutch01527]

I think that it comes down to personal taste for 99% of owners who cruise coastally. The ‘head” choice is a well maintained AWB. The “heart” choice is an older Sacandanavian, German, British or Dutch quality boat.

My boat history is Delher, Baltic, Southerly and now Contest. I have sailed and helped deliver newer production boats and they had many advantages. My older Contest 41 has a narrow stern, no sugar scoop and is heavy but it is a thing of beauty and quality (very similar to a HR).

It makes me happy when sailing or in harbour. The newer AWB do not give me that feel.

But… buying a older, quality boat is all about history and condition. Mine has been pampered and had massive amounts of investment spent throughout it's life. A neglected example could be a nightmare no matter how pretty it looks.

 

[Baggywrinkle]

I think that it comes down to personal taste for 99% of owners who cruise coastally. The ‘head” choice is a well maintained AWB. The “heart” choice is an older Sacandanavian, German, British or Dutch quality boat.

My boat history is Delher, Baltic, Southerly and now Contest. I have sailed and helped deliver newer production boats and they had many advantages. My Contest 41 has a narrow stern, no sugar scoop and is heavy but it is a thing of beauty and quality (very similar to a HR).

It makes me happy when sailing or in harbour. The newer AWB does not give me that feel.

But… buying a older, quality boat is all about history and condition. Mine has been pampered and had massive amounts of investment spent throughout it's life. A neglected example could be a nightmare no matter how pretty it looks.

I think you are talking about the boating equivalent of the classic car enthusiast, appreciating something for what it was back in its heyday - and that's OK. But I for one wouldn't use a classic car (or a classic boat) for a long trip with many hours aboard. There are other options these days.

When I see an 80s boat, particularly one that was a legend back in the day, I do feel nostalgia, and I watch happy people sitting cheek-to-jowl in narrow cockpits, with a tarp thrown over the boom to shade them from the sun. I see them gingerly handing shopping bags up over the guard rails from a dinghy, or clambering up a ladder after a swim - it reminds me of my childhood. My family did all that in the 70s & 80s (apart from the swimming-it was Scotland) - we had no other choice, the swim platform hadn't been invented and boats were what they were. It doesn't mean I have to relive it today - there are choices, things have changed. Part of the reason I have so many friends who come sailing is because of the boat. There is space, it is light and airy, we don't sleep in the saloon and the 3 cabins are proper doubles. There's no drama or gymnastics using the dinghy, water access is easy for SUPs, windsurfers and swimming, the cockpit is big enough for us all to lounge around with a table we can all eat from .... to me it is great to take family and friends boating, something most of them simply wouldn't do if it was not comfortable.

Back in the early 80s, it was Moody that was the butt of the "floating caravan" jokes. The demise of Angus Primrose on a Moody 33 only cemented that reputation, and it still persists with my father to this day. My dads generation who formed the "old boat fraternity" back then have simply passed the baton on to the next generation, repeating the behaviour of the past, with AWBs now the floating caravans instead of Moodys. So owners of old heavy, chopped mat clunkers can look down on these modern floating IKEA loft apartments - and feel good about themselves. There is a very definite element of snobbery mixed I suspect, with the knowledge that actually, there's a lot about modern boats to like.

People adjust how they "feel" to help them get through life, being happy with one's choices is essential to avoid stress, disappointment, envy, burnout. You can't go through life feeling you've made the wrong choices, feeling sorry for yourself, or being envious of others - it's not healthy. So our brains adjust to reassure us that we have made the right choices, and we cling to reasons supporting those choices, logical or not. It's normal.

I understood it all from a very early age ..... I remember going aboard our friends Moody, with its spacious saloon, and sumptuous upholstery. As kids we were in awe of the "big boat feel" ... as was my mum. My dad was forced to agree through gritted teeth, (we'd have had one in a heartbeat if we could have afforded it) but there we were, sitting in the same anchorage, having fought our way through the same shitty weather, and we knew that when we set off the following day, we'd watch the "caravan" show us a clean pair of heels while my dad sat in the cockpit waxing lyrical about why his older long keeled boat had a proper pedigree and would "keep us safe" in a blow ... all the usual stuff as the rain dribbled down the back of our necks, cranked over at 45°, wondering when I'd be sent to the foredeck to hank on a smaller foresail. He had some valid points. Many boats from that era had cockpit floor hatches leading into the engine and bowels of the boat - breach them and the boat sank ..... similar with anchor lockers which drained into the bilge. I realised that it is seamanship and crew competency that matters above all else - assuming the boat has a minimum level of capability. The boats they thought were "blue water legends" back then are way down the list today. Who would choose a 32ft boat for a circumnavigation unless they were budget constrained adventurers? No-one .... but the Contessa 32 was THE blue water idol of that generation, primarily due to the '79 Fasnet.

I have often wondered, what do people actually use these days for a trip across the pond? The only data is the ARC so I found someone who had crunched the numbers on ARC data from 2020 to 2025 ... here are the results, which boats by Make and Model show up most often on the ARC start line?

1st Place with 10 ARC entries each.
Clipper 60
Bavaria Cruiser 51
Beneteau First 47,7

2nd Place with 9 ARC entries.
Oyster 56

3rd Place with 8 ARC entries.
Amel Super Marramu

4th Place with 7 ARC entries.
Dufour Gib Sea 51

5th place with 6 ARC entries each.
Jeanneau Sun Odyssey 519
Beneteau Clipper 473
Grand Soleil 50
Hallberg-Rassy 44

6th Place with 5 ARC entries each.
Hallberg-Rassy 54
Bavaria 44

7th Place with 4 ARC entries.
Dufour 56

8th Place with 3 ARC entries each.
Jeanneau Sun Odyssey 45,2
Hanse 411
Hanse 445
Beneteau Oceanis 43

.... so these are the choices ARC sailors are making to head across the Atlantic. There are a lot of production boats in there and nobody seems to be dying from their choice of boat.

 

[Dutch01527]

I think you are talking about the boating equivalent of the classic car enthusiast, appreciating something for what it was back in its heyday - and that's OK. But I for one wouldn't use a classic car (or a classic boat) for a long trip with many hours aboard. There are other options these days.

When I see an 80s boat, particularly one that was a legend back in the day, I do feel nostalgia, and I watch happy people sitting cheek-to-jowl in narrow cockpits, with a tarp thrown over the boom to shade them from the sun. I see them gingerly handing shopping bags up over the guard rails from a dinghy, or clambering up a ladder after a swim - it reminds me of my childhood. My family did all that in the 70s & 80s (apart from the swimming-it was Scotland) - we had no other choice, the swim platform hadn't been invented and boats were what they were. It doesn't mean I have to relive it today - there are choices, things have changed. Part of the reason I have so many friends who come sailing is because of the boat. There is space, it is light and airy, we don't sleep in the saloon and the 3 cabins are proper doubles. There's no drama or gymnastics using the dinghy, water access is easy for SUPs, windsurfers and swimming, the cockpit is big enough for us all to lounge around with a table we can all eat from .... to me it is great to take family and friends boating, something most of them simply wouldn't do if it was not comfortable.

Back in the early 80s, it was Moody that was the butt of the "floating caravan" jokes. The demise of Angus Primrose on a Moody 33 only cemented that reputation, and it still persists with my father to this day. My dads generation who formed the "old boat fraternity" back then have simply passed the baton on to the next generation, repeating the behaviour of the past, with AWBs now the floating caravans instead of Moodys. So owners of old heavy, chopped mat clunkers can look down on these modern floating IKEA loft apartments - and feel good about themselves. There is a very definite element of snobbery mixed I suspect, with the knowledge that actually, there's a lot about modern boats to like.

People adjust how they "feel" to help them get through life, being happy with one's choices is essential to avoid stress, disappointment, envy, burnout. You can't go through life feeling you've made the wrong choices, feeling sorry for yourself, or being envious of others - it's not healthy. So our brains adjust to reassure us that we have made the right choices, and we cling to reasons supporting those choices, logical or not. It's normal.

I understood it all from a very early age ..... I remember going aboard our friends Moody, with its spacious saloon, and sumptuous upholstery. As kids we were in awe of the "big boat feel" ... as was my mum. My dad was forced to agree through gritted teeth, (we'd have had one in a heartbeat if we could have afforded it) but there we were, sitting in the same anchorage, having fought our way through the same shitty weather, and we knew that when we set off the following day, we'd watch the "caravan" show us a clean pair of heels while my dad sat in the cockpit waxing lyrical about why his older long keeled boat had a proper pedigree and would "keep us safe" in a blow ... all the usual stuff as the rain dribbled down the back of our necks, cranked over at 45°, wondering when I'd be sent to the foredeck to hank on a smaller foresail. He had some valid points. Many boats from that era had cockpit floor hatches leading into the engine and bowels of the boat - breach them and the boat sank ..... similar with anchor lockers which drained into the bilge. I realised that it is seamanship and crew competency that matters above all else - assuming the boat has a minimum level of capability. The boats they thought were "blue water legends" back then are way down the list today. Who would choose a 32ft boat for a circumnavigation unless they were budget constrained adventurers? No-one .... but the Contessa 32 was THE blue water idol of that generation, primarily due to the '79 Fasnet.

I have often wondered, what do people actually use these days for a trip across the pond? The only data is the ARC so I found someone who had crunched the numbers on ARC data from 2020 to 2025 ... here are the results, which boats by Make and Model show up most often on the ARC start line?

1st Place with 10 ARC entries each.
Clipper 60
Bavaria Cruiser 51
Beneteau First 47,7

2nd Place with 9 ARC entries.
Oyster 56

3rd Place with 8 ARC entries.
Amel Super Marramu

4th Place with 7 ARC entries.
Dufour Gib Sea 51

5th place with 6 ARC entries each.
Jeanneau Sun Odyssey 519
Beneteau Clipper 473
Grand Soleil 50
Hallberg-Rassy 44

6th Place with 5 ARC entries each.
Hallberg-Rassy 54
Bavaria 44

7th Place with 4 ARC entries.
Dufour 56

8th Place with 3 ARC entries each.
Jeanneau Sun Odyssey 45,2
Hanse 411
Hanse 445
Beneteau Oceanis 43

.... so these are the choices ARC sailors are making to head across the Atlantic. There are a lot of production boats in there and nobody seems to be dying from their choice of boat.

Strange reply, I only suggested that boat selection was a personal thing and gave the reasons for my choice.. You seem to have taken it as some sort insult to your choices and raising people dying is just bizarre . Suggesting that anyone taking a different view to you is snobbish is just rude and unnecessary. We all do this hobby for fun and are entitled to spend our hard earned money as we choose.

 

[Baggywrinkle]

Strange reply, I only suggested that boat selection was a personal thing and gave the reasons for my choice.. You seem to have taken it as some sort insult to your choices and raising people dying is just bizarre . Suggesting that anyone taking a different view to you is snobbish is just rude and unnecessary. We all do this hobby for fun and are entitled to spend our hard earned money as we choose.

Firstly, apologies if I have offended you, I can understand why you are justifiably happy with your boat, who wouldn't be, given what you value it makes perfect sense.

I think I'm just fed up with rose tinted nostalgia in general. The world moves on (for a reason), and when people argue persistently how much better things were at some indeterminate point in the past, it results in what we are seeing playing out in the world today. Attempts to turn back the clock usually end in disaster because in order for it to work, people are being told that everything is going in the wrong direction and it's not a course correction we need, it's a reset to an undefined baseline. To justify the reset, there there follows a systematic attack on progress, so science, engineering, medicine, culture all get torn down, questioned, and rolled back ... and I'm stopping here because of the forum rules - but nostalgia is often used as a tool to aid destructive, backward thinking agendas. Calls to scrap the RCD because it doesn't fit with some users definition of a seaworthy boat is a great example of the rip it up, don't trust anyone, do your own research mindset responsible for many of todays problems. If the RCD is lacking then be specific, lobby to get it improved .... but I guess "Ah it's rubbish, chuck it away" is easier. My last Bavaria had Lloyds certification and a CE mark, my new one just CE .... I have no reason to think either one of them is unseaworthy, and modern boats don't seem to be catastrophically failing in anything approaching significant numbers.

Having started sailing at a very early age, I've experienced two generations of "old is good" vs "new is bad" generalisations and it is all getting a bit tedious. There are a massive variety of boats out there, of all ages, why can't people just let it be? .... I would expect everyone afloat has sound reasoning as to why they have the boat they have, but this thread was titled "Boat brands, prejudice or reality" ... and the point I am making is that prejudice (and snobbery) is rampant, and has been ever since I can remember. The point about Angus Primrose and Moody was to show that with the passing of time, Moody moved from being derided as a "floating caravan" to a "blue water boat" - just because they got older - how is this possible if the sailing community is objective?

I can only conclude that it's prejudice. Those calling Moodys floating caravans back in the day were in 20-28ft 70s cruisers, so from the perspective of a Westerly Centaur owner, that kind of made sense - Centaurs were pretty utilitarian, with vinyl seats and white gelcoat interiors. We also knew owners of wooden boats who derided GRP .... understandable from the perspective of a wooden boat owner. Everyone who had a GRP boat back then, had something relatively new ... there were no 40 year old GRP boats available.

Fast forward to today, and there are a glut of cheap old GRP boats, some over half a century old. This means that the high-end boats that your average sailor couldn't afford from the 70s/80s/90s can be had for well below the price of a new, 34ft starter boat (Smallest Bavaria 34 Cruiser with a full options list is around €240,000) ... so it's hardly surprising people buy older boats. Buyers have a fixed budget, and there is an overlap between the lower end of the new boat market and the higher end of the used boat market. That means a top-end boat from the 80s in good condition is cheaper than a new 10m boat. Depending on which way the decision falls, the owner joins one camp or the other, and we end up with squabbling over the pros and cons of old vs new - but what is being argued about is of absolutely no consequence to a potential owners intended use - hence the ARC analysis.

It is tedious, and just creates manufactured scenarios to argue about, escalated to the point where claims are made that an old boat would save your life where a new one wouldn't - and this is invariably used to support an old boat being better than a new - don't see many arguments in the other direction. Windows, keels, skegs, twin rudders, handholds, sea berths, cockpit size/position, masthead vs fractional, roller reefing vs slab, twin wheels vs single vs tiller .... the list is endless, and its all just fluff. ... older boats have a different set of characteristics compared to modern boats simply because they are designs from decades ago - the designs have evolved for a reason, and the market has decided what is worth keeping and what can be dispensed with or improved.

Old boats are lovely .... they bring variation to anchorages full of modern boats, they bring back memories, remind us of the past and the best thing about it is, we have more choice now than ever. I can appreciate an old boat without wanting to own one can't I? ... just as I do with classic cars.

 

[Dutch01527]

Firstly, apologies if I have offended you, I can understand why you are justifiably happy with your boat, who wouldn't be, given what you value it makes perfect sense.

I think I'm just fed up with rose tinted nostalgia in general. The world moves on (for a reason), and when people argue persistently how much better things were at some indeterminate point in the past, it results in what we are seeing playing out in the world today. Attempts to turn back the clock usually end in disaster because in order for it to work, people are being told that everything is going in the wrong direction and it's not a course correction we need, it's a reset to an undefined baseline. To justify the reset, there there follows a systematic attack on progress, so science, engineering, medicine, culture all get torn down, questioned, and rolled back ... and I'm stopping here because of the forum rules - but nostalgia is often used as a tool to aid destructive, backward thinking agendas. Calls to scrap the RCD because it doesn't fit with some users definition of a seaworthy boat is a great example of the rip it up, don't trust anyone, do your own research mindset responsible for many of todays problems. If the RCD is lacking then be specific, lobby to get it improved .... but I guess "Ah it's rubbish, chuck it away" is easier. My last Bavaria had Lloyds certification and a CE mark, my new one just CE .... I have no reason to think either one of them is unseaworthy, and modern boats don't seem to be catastrophically failing in anything approaching significant numbers.

Having started sailing at a very early age, I've experienced two generations of "old is good" vs "new is bad" generalisations and it is all getting a bit tedious. There are a massive variety of boats out there, of all ages, why can't people just let it be? .... I would expect everyone afloat has sound reasoning as to why they have the boat they have, but this thread was titled "Boat brands, prejudice or reality" ... and the point I am making is that prejudice (and snobbery) is rampant, and has been ever since I can remember. The point about Angus Primrose and Moody was to show that with the passing of time, Moody moved from being derided as a "floating caravan" to a "blue water boat" - just because they got older - how is this possible if the sailing community is objective?

I can only conclude that it's prejudice. Those calling Moodys floating caravans back in the day were in 20-28ft 70s cruisers, so from the perspective of a Westerly Centaur owner, that kind of made sense - Centaurs were pretty utilitarian, with vinyl seats and white gelcoat interiors. We also knew owners of wooden boats who derided GRP .... understandable from the perspective of a wooden boat owner. Everyone who had a GRP boat back then, had something relatively new ... there were no 40 year old GRP boats available.

Fast forward to today, and there are a glut of cheap old GRP boats, some over half a century old. This means that the high-end boats that your average sailor couldn't afford from the 70s/80s/90s can be had for well below the price of a new, 34ft starter boat (Smallest Bavaria 34 Cruiser with a full options list is around €240,000) ... so it's hardly surprising people buy older boats. Buyers have a fixed budget, and there is an overlap between the lower end of the new boat market and the higher end of the used boat market. That means a top-end boat from the 80s in good condition is cheaper than a new 10m boat. Depending on which way the decision falls, the owner joins one camp or the other, and we end up with squabbling over the pros and cons of old vs new - but what is being argued about is of absolutely no consequence to a potential owners intended use - hence the ARC analysis.

It is tedious, and just creates manufactured scenarios to argue about, escalated to the point where claims are made that an old boat would save your life where a new one wouldn't - and this is invariably used to support an old boat being better than a new - don't see many arguments in the other direction. Windows, keels, skegs, twin rudders, handholds, sea berths, cockpit size/position, masthead vs fractional, roller reefing vs slab, twin wheels vs single vs tiller .... the list is endless, and its all just fluff. ... older boats have a different set of characteristics compared to modern boats simply because they are designs from decades ago - the designs have evolved for a reason, and the market has decided what is worth keeping and what can be dispensed with or improved.

Old boats are lovely .... they bring variation to anchorages full of modern boats, they bring back memories, remind us of the past and the best thing about it is, we have more choice now than ever. I can appreciate an old boat without wanting to own one can't I? ... just as I do with classic cars.

No problem, we are all different and have our own opinions. It would be boring if we all agreed.

 

[paulbrown22]

I love classic cars and use them as my daily drivers around London, but must admit classic boats do little for me in terms of ownership - it's hard enough keeping a fairly modern (well, 20 year old...) boat fully working and in great condition, let alone a 50+ year old one!

 

[Stemar]

By the time a boat's 20 years old, a heavily used model is going to be looking tired, and the general condition depends on how well she's been looked after. There's going to be ongoing upgrading and maintenance to keep her on the top line. I'm not sure that there's that much difference between a 20 year old and a 50 year old from that point of view.

Yes, the design will be different - almost certainly more room in the newer one, and the design may well be easier to sell to the wife of a sailor, but I'm not sure the real classic designs have changed that much and, personally, I'd rather spend a limited budget on an older classic than a much newer Ikea special. In this context, a classic means HR and the like; from a practical point of view, a wooden beauty too often combines the tight spaces of a much smaller boat and never-ending maintenance. I'm glad there are people who want to keep them going, but I'm too old and lazy - I'd rather be sailing

 

[paulbrown22]

By the time a boat's 20 years old, a heavily used model is going to be looking tired, and the general condition depends on how well she's been looked after. There's going to be ongoing upgrading and maintenance to keep her on the top line. I'm not sure that there's that much difference between a 20 year old and a 50 year old from that point of view.

Yes, the design will be different - almost certainly more room in the newer one, and the design may well be easier to sell to the wife of a sailor, but I'm not sure the real classic designs have changed that much and, personally, I'd rather spend a limited budget on an older classic than a much newer Ikea special. In this context, a classic means HR and the like; from a practical point of view, a wooden beauty too often combines the tight spaces of a much smaller boat and never-ending maintenance. I'm glad there are people who want to keep them going, but I'm too old and lazy - I'd rather be sailing

Okay, by that definition I like and own classic boats as well then

 

[doug748]

No problem, we are all different and have our own opinions. It would be boring if we all agreed.

Some people like to cling to hard and fast opinions on matters, it troubles them not to have a black and white option. The same people like to bore folk to death telling them about it

Truth is Halberg Rassy boats are generally built and designed with an eye to a specific market and are in some respects a better option than cheaper alternatives. It does depend on what you want to achieve and the features you feel are important - in many cases the "advantages" will not matter a jot.

For the OP, Compare a Rassy 31 and the Bavaria 30 (chosen for no other reason than I can spell it) both 20 year old boats but one is 30% more expensive than the other. They are almost identical in Displacement, Length and Beam, they specify the same engines.
If you value nice woodwork below decks and a fixed screen you may like to pay the premium. Or more importantly, not only does the Rassy carry almost double the ballast, it is carried a foot lower and is lead. It points to a more stable much more suitable offshore boat. This will not matter a sausage if all the owner wants is a day out in Quiberon Bay.

.

 

[Supertramp]

I remember a story about why Volvo's (240 era) lasted so long. The answer was they were well looked after rather than more reliable or longer lasting than the competition, especially more modern models.

There is a lot of prejudice about brands and perceived quality but in answer to the OP's question about circa 20 year old boats, any decent model will do. Much more depends on finding one with the features and condition you want. Completely agree with Stemar about the difference between 20 and 50 years depending on the quality of maintenance and repair.

If a "standard" boat meets your needs then don't waste money on features you neither want nor need. But do look carefully at the quality and accessibility of internal systems as some of these can be a devil to replace. Along with teak decks......

 

[Tranona]

For the OP, Compare a Rassy 31 and the Bavaria 30 (chosen for no other reason than I can spell it) both 20 year old boats but one is 30% more expensive than the other. They are almost identical in Displacement, Length and Beam, they specify the same engines.


.

If only the premium were just 30% there would be no contest. As I have explained earlier the premium when new was as much as 80% and is maintained or increased as boats age. There are currently 3 HR31a for sale. Cheapest is £58k but not desirable spec with after market add on mainsail furler and no teak decks. For some these are plus points but not perhaps for most HR buyers. The other 2 are £75k and £80k. There are 5 Bavaria 30/31 from the same period asking £32-37k.

This is not the OPs dilemma. He has up to £100k which will get him comfortably and early 2000s HR31 or 34 or a less than 10 year old Bavaria, Hanse, Jeanneau etc of 33-35'

The reality is that a combination of factors such as the drop in the value of the £1 in the last 20 years, reduction in production and sales (particularly in the UK) of boats in this size range and Brexit has resulted in a reduction in choice and shortage of supply particularly at the premium end. Plentiful supply of good AWBs from the heydays of the early 2000 when Bavaria for example were turning out 2500+ boats a year

 

[Dutch01527]

I love classic cars and use them as my daily drivers around London, but must admit classic boats do little for me in terms of ownership - it's hard enough keeping a fairly modern (well, 20 year old...) boat fully working and in great condition, let alone a 50+ year old one!

Reply: To me a boat is more like Triggers Broom from Only Fools and Horses i.e. multiple new shafts and heads over the years but it is still the same broom. It all depends on ongoing investment. The only original bits of my 40 year old boat are the hull, engine, spars, steering and teak deck.

 

[geem]

Strange reply, I only suggested that boat selection was a personal thing and gave the reasons for my choice.. You seem to have taken it as some sort insult to your choices and raising people dying is just bizarre . Suggesting that anyone taking a different view to you is snobbish is just rude and unnecessary. We all do this hobby for fun and are entitled to spend our hard earned money as we choose.

I respect people for their choices. Boat choice is a personal thing based off experience, use case and available spend.
I don't accept the premises that new must be better. You only have to look at modern cars and vans with wet belt immersed in oil to know this is a backwards step. No benefit for the owner at all.
When you own a quality boat like your Contest, built to a standard not a price, the argument for modern must be better falls down miserably.
Modern designs have evolved to suit their market. A big player in the market is the charter industry. People pay top dollar for two weeks in the sunshine and expect to be able to swim off a platform on the back and cram in as many people as they can to share the cost of the charter. The boat doesn't need a ton of storage as the charters are only staying two weeks. They don't need engine spares, space for a water maker, space for bycycles, large lockers for food, clothes, etc. So boat evolve along this route.
The Contest never played in this market so doesn't try to compete there. As a result you get a different product. One based around quality of construction and quality of internal finish. Not necessarily aimed at the 2 week Mediterranean charter market. Lots of similar Scandinavian designs aimed at Baltic sailing or Northern Europe.
Chalk and cheese

 

[flaming]

When you own a quality boat like your Contessa built to a standard not a price, the argument for modern must be better falls down miserably.

Only if you're making the mistake of comparing the Contessa - which was a competitive cruiser racer built to withstand the rigors of a RORC season when new - to pure cruising boats from the big manufacturers. If you instead compare it to the cruiser racers of the modern era - boats with essentially the same design brief but half a century apart.... Then you see clear evolution. Probably the closest thing available to buy new now to the design brief of the Contessa is the J99. Which despite being somewhat sedate by modern standards is a lot faster than the Contessa, nearly 20% according to IRC, has better accommodation, is easier to sail with non-overlapping jibs and A-sail kites, And is also a boat built to a standard, as evidenced by the price! And it's still a volume production boat, with well over 100 built now.

If you want to compare older boats, in this case 1970s designs, to the modern volume cruising offerings, then you need to pick a boat from that era that was actually volume built to a pure cruising brief. Westerly Conway family maybe?

What would you rather cruise as a family around the South Coast of the UK in 2026, a Conway or the brand new Oceanis 34.1? Or a Hanse 348? Or a Sun Oddesy 350? The new boats will be faster, more comfortable to live on, much bigger galley, better electronics, proper fridges, shore power built in, much easier handling rigs, more comfortable cockpit, bigger heads with shower etc. (To be fair I have no idea if the Conway had a shower or hot water as standard, but we know that the new boats all will)

Claiming that you cannot see progress in design, when you're actually talking about the same design brief then... That's just perverse.

Your own boat, it is fantastic. Honestly, it clearly is, and you're absolutely right to be so proud of it. But it's also not a volume production boat, is it? So saying it's better than the modern volume production boats is also fundamentally missing the point of comparing like with like. The modern equivalent of your boat (because of course the yard didn't make enough money making and selling them) is probably the JPK45FC or maybe a Pegasus etc. High end boats from small semi-bespoke yards. All of which have their niche and are equally desirable and suitable for the role of liveaboard cruiser with all the things you suggested. And all of which cost significantly more than the same sized AWB. As of course did yours when it was new. A good condition JPK45FC is currently on JPK's website for 600,000 Euros. No wonder that most cruising isn't done in that type of boat. And you absolutely could argue that design has moved on from your boat to the newer equivalent boats.

At the end of the day, however much you personally deride the AWB, for the vast majority of people who dream about sailing over the Horizon they are basically the only affordable option. And they are doing the job. People are sailing across oceans in them. People are living their dreams in them. At a fraction of the cost of a new equivalent of your boat.

 

[benjenbav]

Only if you're making the mistake of comparing the Contessa - which was a competitive cruiser racer built to withstand the rigors of a RORC season when new - to pure cruising boats from the big manufacturers. If you instead compare it to the cruiser racers of the modern era - boats with essentially the same design brief but half a century apart.... Then you see clear evolution. Probably the closest thing available to buy new now to the design brief of the Contessa is the J99. Which despite being somewhat sedate by modern standards is a lot faster than the Contessa, nearly 20% according to IRC, has better accommodation, is easier to sail with non-overlapping jibs and A-sail kites, And is also a boat built to a standard, as evidenced by the price! And it's still a volume production boat, with well over 100 built now.

If you want to compare older boats, in this case 1970s designs, to the modern volume cruising offerings, then you need to pick a boat from that era that was actually volume built to a pure cruising brief. Westerly Conway family maybe?

What would you rather cruise as a family around the South Coast of the UK in 2026, a Conway or the brand new Oceanis 34.1? Or a Hanse 348? Or a Sun Oddesy 350? The new boats will be faster, more comfortable to live on, much bigger galley, better electronics, proper fridges, shore power built in, much easier handling rigs, more comfortable cockpit, bigger heads with shower etc. (To be fair I have no idea if the Conway had a shower or hot water as standard, but we know that the new boats all will)

Claiming that you cannot see progress in design, when you're actually talking about the same design brief then... That's just perverse.

Your own boat, it is fantastic. Honestly, it clearly is, and you're absolutely right to be so proud of it. But it's also not a volume production boat, is it? So saying it's better than the modern volume production boats is also fundamentally missing the point of comparing like with like. The modern equivalent of your boat (because of course the yard didn't make enough money making and selling them) is probably the JPK45FC or maybe a Pegasus etc. High end boats from small semi-bespoke yards. All of which have their niche and are equally desirable and suitable for the role of liveaboard cruiser with all the things you suggested. And all of which cost significantly more than the same sized AWB. As of course did yours when it was new. A good condition JPK45FC is currently on JPK's website for 600,000 Euros. No wonder that most cruising isn't done in that type of boat. And you absolutely could argue that design has moved on from your boat to the newer equivalent boats.

At the end of the day, however much you personally deride the AWB, for the vast majority of people who dream about sailing over the Horizon they are basically the only affordable option. And they are doing the job. People are sailing across oceans in them. People are living their dreams in them. At a fraction of the cost of a new equivalent of your boat.

I think (might be wrong; often am) that geem’s reference to a Contessa might have been the result of autocorrect. Geem’s post was in response to Dutch01527 who, I believe, has a Contest 41.

 

[dunedin]

I respect people for their choices. Boat choice is a personal thing based off experience, use case and available spend.
I don't accept the premises that new must be better. You only have to look at modern cars and vans with wet belt immersed in oil to know this is a backwards step. No benefit for the owner at all.
When you own a quality boat like your Contessa built to a standard not a price, the argument for modern must be better falls down miserably.
Modern designs have evolved to suit their market. A big player in the market is the charter industry. People pay top dollar for two weeks in the sunshine and expect to be able to swim off a platform on the back and cram in as many people as they can to share the cost of the charter. The boat doesn't need a ton of storage as the charters are only staying two weeks. They don't need engine spares, space for a water maker, space for bycycles, large lockers for food, clothes, etc. So boat evolve along this route.
The Contest never played in this market so doesn't try to compete there. As a result you get a different product. One based around quality of construction and quality of internal finish. Not necessarily aimed at the 2 week Mediterranean charter market. Lots of similar Scandinavian designs aimed at Baltic sailing or Northern Europe.
Chalk and cheese

Here we go again.
Regarding Contest Yachts they are very much now in the modern idiom, twin wheels wide stern etc - and all the better for this. Contest Yachts | Building dreams together

 

[flaming]

I think (might be wrong; often am) that geem’s reference to a Contessa might have been the result of autocorrect. Geem’s post was in response to Dutch01527 who, I believe, has a Contest 41.

Ok, yes I can see that does look likely. Point still stands though. The Contest, which is clearly a great boat, also wasn't a high volume production boat of its day, see my point about Geem's Trintella. Compare like with like, same design brief with same design brief, then compare "new to old".