boat brands - prejudice or reality

[barca nova]

I've been sailing since the likes of Westerly and Moody were in their pomp so my 5 boats so far have all been British. I have looked down on BeJenBav as I still do on the likes of Renault cars. But I am now about to buy a new ( to me) boat, the classic Swedish and decent british ( Vancouver) are expensive in the second hand market and not very numerous at that. The Vancouver is a pretty old design.

In the age range ( post 2000) I am considering there is a huge difference in price between say Beneteau and the swedes or to put it another way I can buy a much newer French boats for the same money.

So my question is this : is the reputational difference really justified. Can I get a French ( or German) boat that will sail as well and handle weather as well as the "Swedes". Is the difference just the MFI interiors of the likes of say Hanse compared to the solid wood of the Swedes. After all, engines , masts , sails etc will all be the same - its only hulls , interiors and construction standards where there might be a difference

Apart from the fanboys that there will be for any brand, are there any surveyors on here who might be more dispassionate?

 

[RunAgroundHard]

No, the reputational differences are not justified, they are just biases, maintain an open mind.

I think we have to be very careful of prejudices as they can ill serve personal needs and wants. We also need to be honest with what needs and wants are i.e. always sail in fair weather, short coastal jaunts or is it realistic to expect heavy weather frequently, or will most of the time be with friends and family entertaining on the boat rather than deep sea voyaging.

There is no doubt that all the boat manufacturers you state sell models that will do all of the above. Put your prejudices aside, work out what you really need based on desired usage and look across the brands. For the same money there are outstanding vessels, well appointed, well maintained and when compared to other models, the other models are left wanting.

So do your research, plan well, then look about and buy the best boat for your cash that suits your needs and don't let brand bias interfere with that process.

I don't think MFI makes interiors for yachts, but the right MFD is an excellent material for interior furniture carcasses.

 

[paulbrown22]

What do you plan to do with the boat?

Clearly there is a difference in quality of construction, hull strength, weight, level of interior fit out, design, layout, systems installation, tankage, etc., but that's not the be all and end all. The masts may both be Selden items, but the way it's secured, diameter (and potentially number) of stays, etc. is likely to be different on e.g. an HR vs. a Bavaria, which may or may not matter depending on your intended usage.

Depending on your use case, a more modern BeJenBav might be a good/better option for you and in many cases will probably offer better interior volume and flow for the same length, but I don't think anyone can argue they are built to the same quality as e.g. an HR.

 

[ylop]

Your car analogy is probably fair. Would you rather have a 10 yr old volvo or a 6yr old renault/citroen/peugot. [the volvo comparison might be better if I used BMW/Audi - but they aren't swedish!]. There isn't a clear cut one/other question here. One might be more comfortable, one might be more likely to still be in good shape when its 20 yrs old, one might sell for more money in 5 yrs time, a 6yr old engine well maintained might be better nick than a 10 yr old thats had minimal maintenance or vice versa, and the 10 yr old interior might be missing some of the modern "tools" you would expect, or you might personally not to have them or want to update them all anyway.

Ultimately though you might way up all the pro's and con's and still make an irrational decision on paper because you've always wanted to own X or Y just looks better or your wife preferred it. Like cars though you'll hear a lot of people with strong opinions, many of whom have never owned the brand they are critiquing.

 

[flaming]

What do you plan to do with the boat?

Clearly there is a difference in quality of construction, hull strength, weight, level of interior fit out, design, layout, systems installation, tankage, etc., but that's not the be all and end all. The masts may both be Selden items, but the way it's secured, diameter (and potentially number) of stays, etc. is likely to be different on e.g. an HR vs. a Bavaria, which may or may not matter depending on your intended usage.

Depending on your use case, a more modern BeJenBav might be a good/better option for you and in many cases will probably offer better interior volume and flow for the same length, but I don't think anyone can argue they are built to the same quality as e.g. an HR.

Often it's not advisable to look too closely at the displacement figures if you're attempting to make the argument that Sweedish etc are "stronger built" than the equivalent Jen/Ben/Bav. Especially if you're also arguing that the interior fit out is heavier and more durable on the "quality" model.

Where I see the difference between brands is in 2 things - 1 the attention to detail in the fit out. I.e if you open a locker is it rough fiberglass inside or has it been finished. Little clues like that.
And 2 the quality of the gear fitted. Very often you can look at the deck gear on the Jen/Ben/Bav and see underspecced, plain bearing blocks. And winches that are a size down from what you'd really like.

But... The reality of how the vast majority of people use their boats is that any well maintained production boat from the early 2000s is perfectly capable of cruising UK waters and crossing to the continent. Honestly if I was looking at that sector I'd be more swayed by layout that I liked and evidence that it had been well cared for than I would by what brand was written on the side. And if all else was equal I'd buy the one that had an instrument upgrade - that can get expensive....

 

[SaltyC]

I agree with flaming resize and quality of deck fittings having a single line reefing pennant fail so 'lost' the 1st reef in main and original (10 yr old) genoa was badly stretched - going to windward was difficult on that delivery.

However, if buying a pre loved boat I would lije to see maintenance and gear records and check accessibility for future replacements - is access acailable os tge boat built around the heads / engine etc

 

[rotrax]

All boats are a compromise. Unless you build to your spec you will struggle to find EXACTLY what you want.

First mate and I, for our last four boats, made a simple list. Two columns, 'Must Haves' and 'Nice to Haves'.

From the first boat to the last, those columns held different things as our experience and requirements changed.

We were fortunate with the last two in having a good budget. Island Packets fitted the bill and were -just-affordable.

They gave us several 'must haves', encapsulated long keel, high build quality, heavy displacement.

Good thing we did not want to sail fast in light winds!

That is what the final 'must have' was - a big engine!

The quality of some boats is beyond reproach. Others are not so good.

These pages and their knowlegable contributors will be of great assistance in sorting the wheat from the chaff.

 

[paulbrown22]

Often it's not advisable to look too closely at the displacement figures if you're attempting to make the argument that Sweedish etc are "stronger built" than the equivalent Jen/Ben/Bav. Especially if you're also arguing that the interior fit out is heavier and more durable on the "quality" model.

Why, out of interest? e.g. a 40' HR hull is likely heavier built and stronger than a 40' Bavaria, along with more weight on the interior?

But completely agreed - for most use cases any vaguely modern and well maintained yacht is perfectly capable and will get you there, the choice comes down to personal preference and budget. Much like the car analogy above, a Ford Mondeo will likely get you to the destination in the same time as a Merc S class, it just depends what you want to drive in!

 

[flaming]

Why, out of interest? e.g. a 40' HR hull is likely heavier built and stronger than a 40' Bavaria, along with more weight on the interior?

Well according to sailboat data the 2000 Bav 40 has a displacement of 7900kg and a ballast of 2800kg making the hull and everything else weigh 5100kg
The 2002 Halberg Rassey 40 has, according to the same source, a displacement of 10000kg and a ballast of 4100 kg. Making the hull weigh 5900kg.

So if we accept that the interior fit is heavier, wood rather than veneer etc, the HR will have bigger winches and associated deck gear and the HR has a bigger engine, then the hull is a very very similar weight. You could absolutely make the case that the ballast ratios tell a story, but if you are quantifying "better built" in terms of the layup thickness of the hull, there really isn't much in it at all.

 

[Tranona]

I think I answered most of your questions in your previous thread on the subject. Just to re-iterate the premium brands "justify" the distinction in terms of quality of design, construction and finish. That is not in question - the question is do you value it at the premium price you have to pay and will your type of usage be more enjoyable than in a lower cost brand of boat.

My first Bavaria was just like this (except it had furling main) boatshed.com/bavaria_37-boat-342201.html I bought it new in 2001 for chartering in the Med and it did that intensively for 7 seasons typically 20+ weeks a year and over 3000 engine hours. Nothing significant broke or fell off in that time and after 2 further years sailing around Greece with little extra prep I sailed it across the Med to Spain and then trucked it back to UK and used it here for a further 3 years. The only significant expenditure was a new saildrive unit and windlass- legacy of heavy handed charter skippers. Sold it to a couple with teenage children who spent approx £10k sprucing it up and then they sailed it back to Spain where they used it for another 6 years until their children left home and sold it for more than it cost them. As you can see from the photos in the ad the boat for sale is in pretty good nick and well equipped. No sign of woodwork damage, leaks etc and the bilge is dry as a bone. Engine is spotless, all the deck gear is still there and working. This apparent condition is not unusual for boats of this age (25 years old) and while there will no doubt be niggles to sort out the boat will do anything you want both coastal and offshore.

I replaced that boat with a new Bavaria 33 like this one clippermarine.co.uk/boats-for-sale~boat-feed-detail~2015-Bavaria-Cruiser-33~1182 which I kept for 6 years and sailed extensively up and down the S Coast from Poole. Again nothing broke or fell off apart from the Lewmar windlass which burnt out its motor just before I sold it and software issues with the Garmin plotter which they fixed. As I explained earlier I could have bought a new HR 310, but using my test in the first paragraph I simply could not justify the premium. Also again as I suggested the choice in 10m boats was and is very limited and there was not a lot to choose between the offerings from Beneteau Jeanneau Hanse and Bavaria. In the end it came down to the boat that would be the best fit for me for singlehanded. Not a lot in it pricewise except the Hanse was a lot cheaper (it was last of the line) but the least suited.

You mentioned earlier that your budget could be £100k. This takes you into 10 year old 35-37 footers like this one clarkeandcarter.co.uk/2014-bavaria-37-cruiser/ which belongs to somebody who used to post here a lot and who sold an HR when he bought it. We were in the market at the same time, although he bought a year earlier than me and we exchanged a lot during the process. We came to the conclusion that what you get buying an AWB is 90% of the HR for 70% of the cost. Add to that (at least for a new boat buyer) the process is a lot easier and you avoid the high delivery and commissioning costs as well as the snagging that others experienced. Of course many of those things are irrelevant when buying used.

There is no substitute for getting out there and looking at what boats are on offer - and what they offer. As flaming says, forget about the name on the side. There are few if any "bad" boats. The big builders can't afford to make bad boats so as a used boat buyer the key things are the layout, condition of gear, engine and interior and upgrading maintenance.

 

[davidej]

This subject has been done to death several times on this forum!

A boring re-run!

 

[flaming]

This subject has been done to death several times on this forum!

A boring re-run!

It's January. Most of us aren't sailing.

 

[johnalison]

Although I am biased from my quarter-century with an HR, I think that there are differences and the decision between ‘quality’ Scandinavian or Dutch perhaps vs benjebav will depend on your priorities and usage. From the design point of view, the mass-produced boats will be designed with an eye on the charter market, emphasising usable space inside and possibly towards warmer climes, while the HR and others will tend to be more comfortable for long-term living and generally be better appointed, appealing more to retired sailors, but there isn’t a single ‘better’ answer.

 

[davidej]

It's January. Most of us aren't sailing.

Yes but it just ends up with peeps parading their personal prejudices to justify their choice of boat

 

[John_Silver]

Opportunity to judge for ourselves shortly, on the question of HR lamination standards. Through the eyes of Chris & @snooks .

 

[flaming]

Yes but it just ends up with peeps parading their personal prejudices to justify their choice of boat

Don't read it then!

Not sure I have a dog in this hunt. My boat is very different to both camps....

 

[mjcoon]

I don't think MFI makes interiors for yachts, but the right MFD is an excellent material for interior furniture carcasses.

MFD = multifunction display MDF = en.wikipedia.org/Medium-density_fibreboard

 

[davidej]

Let me just sum this up and then we can move on to something more interesting.

It’s like the difference between a Merc and a Mondeo. The Merc is better finished and is much posher and will impress the neighbours. But it won’t get you there any quicker or safer. So it’s up to you!

PS. I have a sailing friend who worked for years in the motor trade. He said that Mondeos were much better built and more reliable than any Merc or BMW.

 

[michael_w]

Having owned
3 x Scandanavian built
2 x British built
1 x French built
1 x German built
and just about to start recommissioning a French boat for blue water work.

If you look carefully enough on any boat you will find rough corners and bits of wood that are suitable for an orange box. The large sums charged for Scandanavian boats reflects more on high worker costs and not build quality.

 

[rotrax]

It's January. Most of us aren't sailing.

First Mate and I are likely to be Narrowboating next week, moving our new purchase from Stowe Hill Wharf to Enslow Wharf.

We shall have the 'Premier' range in the boatmans cabin going as we travel, allowing heat to perculate at least the bottom half of the steerer. The kettle will be on it too, so hot drinks aplenty.

Watch this space................................