Koeketiene
Well-Known Member
Too late
But your point is well made - it doesn't even show the new Ostend breakwater
Blackwater to Oostende
- Thread starter MystereFlyer
- Start date
Too late
But your point is well made - it doesn't even show the new Ostend breakwater
sailorman
Well-Known Member
one has paper charts & this pix was from the home PC, we dont use the home PC when sailing :encouragement:
sailorman
Well-Known Member
Too late
But your point is well made - it doesn't even show the new Ostend breakwater
It does when zoomed-in. all the Dutch & Belgian charts are currant due the their governments allowing free downloads
tillergirl
Well-Known Member
Paper charts, good oh!:encouragement::encouragement:
Bru
Well-Known Member
sailorman
Well-Known Member
Link, link! Gimme a link!!!! (Yes, OK, I shall go and look for myself if I must
open cpn site the look about for the link. Full Dutch charts too
you will need to download open cpn to run them.
put charts in a folder then tell open cpn where to find them
Bru
Well-Known Member
Enters Stage Right - still muttering
I tentatively venture to suggest, with all due genuine respect to my much more experienced and esteemed friends Roger, Roger and Wim et al, that perhaps a little more thought might be required than us neophytes are being led to believe :ambivalence:
So I got my navigators head on and with malice aforethought over-thunk it to the max ...
We'll start with some assumptions, as we must for the purpose of the excercise.
Assumption 1 is that we are planning to arrive in Ostend on Wednesday 27 May 2015 e.g. the day before Oostende vor Anker starts.
Assumption 2 is that wherever we are starting from, we plan on an ETA at Long Sand Head of 01:00 on the morning of the 27th (Consulting my copy of North Sea Passage Pilot recommends a departure from the Crouch at HW Dover i.e. 18:12 on the 26th. This, allowing for the tide, gives an ETA at Long Sand Head of 01:00 at 4 knots
Assumption 3 therefore arises which is that the passage is based on an average speed through the water of 4 knots. This, happily for me, is both the speed that Navin uses for all his calculations and about the speed we generally attain in "Erbas". Your mileage may vary (as they used to say on t'interweb forums in the olde days)
So first of all let's have a look at the "Long Sand Head then steer 130 magnetic, it's easy" plan!
Very neat. Allowing for the (neap as it happens) tides, a course of 130M plonks us as if by magic within a few cables of the West Hinder light at 10:00 in the morning. Nice one chaps, respect ... but ...
That was all well and good in the days before the Sunk TSS was revised and expanded. Because following that plan could land you in trouble ...
Zooming in on the relevant area we can see all too clearly what happens. The tide is on the turn as we round Long Sand Head and setting in to the SSW ...
You are, my dear chaps, busted. Even without the tide you would be entering the North bound lane of the Sunk TSS South whilst on a South Easterly heading. With the tide setting you to the SSW, you are well over a mile inside the TSS. Like it or lump it, you are illegal all the way.
Of course, it's up to the individual skipper and you'll probably get away with it indefinitely but is it a really good idea to be offering somewhat dubious advice to newcomers without at least pointing out the pitfalls?
And another of course is that if you reverse the tides, as you might if you were coming down from Harwich I guess (I haven't checked this I hasten to point out) you would arrive at Long Sand Head as the tide was turning to the ebb and you'd be pushed somewhat East of North and possibly just clear of the TSS instead. But I'm coming out of the Crouch and I'm going to want the ebb under me out to Long Sand Head so ya boo sucks!
In any case, I am not prepared to risk busting a TSS. Can't afford the fine if I get caught. Could genuinely effectively cost me the boat for the sake of a mile or two. So here's my passage plan for the trip ...
Yeah, I know, looks complicated but bear with me. It isn't really that bad
The plan as written down goes like this ...
Waypoint: Galloper 51d42.2N, 1d54.7E
Zone Alarm: SunkTSS 51d42.7N, 1d50.2E 1m radius
Waypoint AT Whind TSS 51d20.6N, 2d27.6E
Depart Pinto 18:00
ETA Whitaker Beacon 21:00
CTS 070M for Black Deep, ware set and drift
Leave Black Deep Red Can (Quick Red) to Starboard and ...
Steer for Long Sand Head North Cardinal (V.Q.) leaving it close to Port
CTS 110M towards waypoint "Galloper"
Ware ferries from ahead and astern
Ware zone alarm "SunkTSS"
Check weather and sea state, take Falls Gap alt. route in poor weather
Depart waypoint "Galloper" on CTS 140M towards West Hinder Light
Ware traffic in North Hinder South TSS
Leave West Hinder Light 1 cable to Port
Abeam West Hinder Light turn starboard heading 160M towards waypoint "AT WHind TSS"
Ware traffic in AT West Hinder TSS
When clear of TSS (Berques N N. Cardinal aft of abeam to Starboard and OD1 / Oost Dyck North Cardinals aft of abeam to Port) ...
Depart waypoint "AT WHind TSS" on CTS 090M towards Oostendebank E (Red Can Fl(4)R.20s)
At Oostendenbank E buoy, head direct for entrance to Ostend Harbour
Ware tidal set to South West across harbour entrance
Ostend Port Radio Ch.09, contact in advance before entry advised
Quick Yellow light from East Pier, ferry traffic; keep clear
"Pinto", I should explain, is my departure/arrival waypoint in the River Crouch. I know with sufficient accuracy off the top of my head, without having to do any detailed nav work, how long it will take us to get to "Pinto" from Fambridge, Burnham or the Brankfleet anchorage in any given state of wind and tide
Navin advises diverting South of Fairy Bank in bad weather. I don't plan to be anywhere near it if the weather is bad but I've planned the diversion anyway! I haven't included the details here in a laughable attemt at brevity!
Oh and before anybody gets all pedantic on me, I'm well aware that my heading across the North Hinder South TSS (doesn't that just trip off the tongue?) is a little shy of the prescribed 90 degrees. Rather than 140 it should probably be 135 or even perhaps 130. So I'm cheating a bit. Odds are that in the real world we'll be having to adjust our heading on the fly anyway taking into account actual conditions on the day. The predicted water track is very close to 90 degrees though
Let's have a detailed look at how I've dealt with the Sunk TSS ...
Navin (North Sea Passage Pilot) would have you head South from Long Sand Head until the Sunk S2 buoy is abeam and then turn hard-a-port to cross the top end of the TSS at the required 90 degree heading. However, this adds fully 4 miles, and therefore a whole hour, to the passage. It is the ultra-safe option as it totally avoids the Sunk Outer Precautionary Area and stays well to the South of the Harwich - Ostend ferry traffic.
I'm not going to do that! There is nothing in the rules to prevent a yacht from transiting the precautionary area on any heading the skipper chooses. So I'm going to set a zone alarm on the chart plotter on the North East edge of the TSS, to warn me if I should get set too far South by the tide, and a guidance waypoint which I shall call "Galloper". This will give me a cross track error readout which in turn will tell me whether the tidal set and my leeway are within acceptable bounds or whether I need to adjust my heading which I estimate needs to be 110M for this leg
Because I'm dog-legging slightly North of the direct track, my heading from "Galloper" isn't going to be 130. It's actually, to be pedantic and according to my calculations, 138T (with not much magnetic variation about at the moment. 21 minutes West if you must know which is kind've irrelevant really). I round up or down to the nearest 5 degrees anyway 'cos nobody can steer that small so that comes out of the box as a heading of 140M
The final screen dump (and I apologies if these are too big for your screen but any smaller and they'd have been useless) is a detailed look at the Ostend end ...
Leaving the West Hinder Light to Port, we head at 160M to cross the TSS at 90 degrees to the traffic. We can use either the pre-programmed waypoint or, if you like old fashioned methods, a clearing line between the North Cardinal buoys at either end of the TSS (all of which should be visible through binocs in good vis) to determine when we've crossed the shipping lanes.
Then we have a choice to make. Navin would have us skirt close along the Southern edge of the shipping lane. At this state of the tide, we'd be fighting it all the way and I suspect it would be somewhat of a drag, especially under sail. Alternativey, I can see no good reason, in decent weather at any rate, not to lay a course of 090M which allowing for the tide setting to the South West now would land us fairly directly in the vicinity of the Oostendnake E Port hand buoy (indicated by the square symbol but not shown at this chart scale)
From there' we head directly into port, being aware of the tidal set to the South West across the entrance.
Why not head straight in you ask? Well there's marine nature reserves all over the shop and whilst it's very clear that there is no entry to the inshore zone, the rules on transiting the next bit further out are vague and also not available in original form in English. For the sake of a mile or so, best to stay clear methinks.
ETA Ostend 17:00. Yes, I'll have a bier, thank you very much!
PS. Yes, I've noticed "Bad Weater Route". I'm just trying to get into character alright?
PPS. Make your own plan, use mine at your peril. Don't blame me if you meet with doom, gloom and disaster by relying on the handful of well pickled brain cells I have left. You have been warned!
PPPS. I'm actually planning to go via Dover anyway!
PPPPS. ALL plans are subject to change on the day. I point this out because my fan club (aha ha ha) has a habit of giving me stick when I change plans I've spent time on before a trip during the actual trip itself. As far as I'm concerned, time spent planning is never time wasted. And also as far as I'm concerned changing a plan is not a failure. It is failing to change the plan when the basis of that plan has changed that is a failure. There, got that off my chest. I feel better now.
I tentatively venture to suggest, with all due genuine respect to my much more experienced and esteemed friends Roger, Roger and Wim et al, that perhaps a little more thought might be required than us neophytes are being led to believe :ambivalence:
So I got my navigators head on and with malice aforethought over-thunk it to the max ...
We'll start with some assumptions, as we must for the purpose of the excercise.
Assumption 1 is that we are planning to arrive in Ostend on Wednesday 27 May 2015 e.g. the day before Oostende vor Anker starts.
Assumption 2 is that wherever we are starting from, we plan on an ETA at Long Sand Head of 01:00 on the morning of the 27th (Consulting my copy of North Sea Passage Pilot recommends a departure from the Crouch at HW Dover i.e. 18:12 on the 26th. This, allowing for the tide, gives an ETA at Long Sand Head of 01:00 at 4 knots
Assumption 3 therefore arises which is that the passage is based on an average speed through the water of 4 knots. This, happily for me, is both the speed that Navin uses for all his calculations and about the speed we generally attain in "Erbas". Your mileage may vary (as they used to say on t'interweb forums in the olde days)
So first of all let's have a look at the "Long Sand Head then steer 130 magnetic, it's easy" plan!
Very neat. Allowing for the (neap as it happens) tides, a course of 130M plonks us as if by magic within a few cables of the West Hinder light at 10:00 in the morning. Nice one chaps, respect ... but ...
That was all well and good in the days before the Sunk TSS was revised and expanded. Because following that plan could land you in trouble ...
Zooming in on the relevant area we can see all too clearly what happens. The tide is on the turn as we round Long Sand Head and setting in to the SSW ...
You are, my dear chaps, busted. Even without the tide you would be entering the North bound lane of the Sunk TSS South whilst on a South Easterly heading. With the tide setting you to the SSW, you are well over a mile inside the TSS. Like it or lump it, you are illegal all the way.
Of course, it's up to the individual skipper and you'll probably get away with it indefinitely but is it a really good idea to be offering somewhat dubious advice to newcomers without at least pointing out the pitfalls?
And another of course is that if you reverse the tides, as you might if you were coming down from Harwich I guess (I haven't checked this I hasten to point out) you would arrive at Long Sand Head as the tide was turning to the ebb and you'd be pushed somewhat East of North and possibly just clear of the TSS instead. But I'm coming out of the Crouch and I'm going to want the ebb under me out to Long Sand Head so ya boo sucks!
In any case, I am not prepared to risk busting a TSS. Can't afford the fine if I get caught. Could genuinely effectively cost me the boat for the sake of a mile or two. So here's my passage plan for the trip ...
Yeah, I know, looks complicated but bear with me. It isn't really that bad
The plan as written down goes like this ...
Waypoint: Galloper 51d42.2N, 1d54.7E
Zone Alarm: SunkTSS 51d42.7N, 1d50.2E 1m radius
Waypoint AT Whind TSS 51d20.6N, 2d27.6E
Depart Pinto 18:00
ETA Whitaker Beacon 21:00
CTS 070M for Black Deep, ware set and drift
Leave Black Deep Red Can (Quick Red) to Starboard and ...
Steer for Long Sand Head North Cardinal (V.Q.) leaving it close to Port
CTS 110M towards waypoint "Galloper"
Ware ferries from ahead and astern
Ware zone alarm "SunkTSS"
Check weather and sea state, take Falls Gap alt. route in poor weather
Depart waypoint "Galloper" on CTS 140M towards West Hinder Light
Ware traffic in North Hinder South TSS
Leave West Hinder Light 1 cable to Port
Abeam West Hinder Light turn starboard heading 160M towards waypoint "AT WHind TSS"
Ware traffic in AT West Hinder TSS
When clear of TSS (Berques N N. Cardinal aft of abeam to Starboard and OD1 / Oost Dyck North Cardinals aft of abeam to Port) ...
Depart waypoint "AT WHind TSS" on CTS 090M towards Oostendebank E (Red Can Fl(4)R.20s)
At Oostendenbank E buoy, head direct for entrance to Ostend Harbour
Ware tidal set to South West across harbour entrance
Ostend Port Radio Ch.09, contact in advance before entry advised
Quick Yellow light from East Pier, ferry traffic; keep clear
"Pinto", I should explain, is my departure/arrival waypoint in the River Crouch. I know with sufficient accuracy off the top of my head, without having to do any detailed nav work, how long it will take us to get to "Pinto" from Fambridge, Burnham or the Brankfleet anchorage in any given state of wind and tide
Navin advises diverting South of Fairy Bank in bad weather. I don't plan to be anywhere near it if the weather is bad but I've planned the diversion anyway! I haven't included the details here in a laughable attemt at brevity!
Oh and before anybody gets all pedantic on me, I'm well aware that my heading across the North Hinder South TSS (doesn't that just trip off the tongue?) is a little shy of the prescribed 90 degrees. Rather than 140 it should probably be 135 or even perhaps 130. So I'm cheating a bit. Odds are that in the real world we'll be having to adjust our heading on the fly anyway taking into account actual conditions on the day. The predicted water track is very close to 90 degrees though
Let's have a detailed look at how I've dealt with the Sunk TSS ...
Navin (North Sea Passage Pilot) would have you head South from Long Sand Head until the Sunk S2 buoy is abeam and then turn hard-a-port to cross the top end of the TSS at the required 90 degree heading. However, this adds fully 4 miles, and therefore a whole hour, to the passage. It is the ultra-safe option as it totally avoids the Sunk Outer Precautionary Area and stays well to the South of the Harwich - Ostend ferry traffic.
I'm not going to do that! There is nothing in the rules to prevent a yacht from transiting the precautionary area on any heading the skipper chooses. So I'm going to set a zone alarm on the chart plotter on the North East edge of the TSS, to warn me if I should get set too far South by the tide, and a guidance waypoint which I shall call "Galloper". This will give me a cross track error readout which in turn will tell me whether the tidal set and my leeway are within acceptable bounds or whether I need to adjust my heading which I estimate needs to be 110M for this leg
Because I'm dog-legging slightly North of the direct track, my heading from "Galloper" isn't going to be 130. It's actually, to be pedantic and according to my calculations, 138T (with not much magnetic variation about at the moment. 21 minutes West if you must know which is kind've irrelevant really). I round up or down to the nearest 5 degrees anyway 'cos nobody can steer that small so that comes out of the box as a heading of 140M
The final screen dump (and I apologies if these are too big for your screen but any smaller and they'd have been useless) is a detailed look at the Ostend end ...
Leaving the West Hinder Light to Port, we head at 160M to cross the TSS at 90 degrees to the traffic. We can use either the pre-programmed waypoint or, if you like old fashioned methods, a clearing line between the North Cardinal buoys at either end of the TSS (all of which should be visible through binocs in good vis) to determine when we've crossed the shipping lanes.
Then we have a choice to make. Navin would have us skirt close along the Southern edge of the shipping lane. At this state of the tide, we'd be fighting it all the way and I suspect it would be somewhat of a drag, especially under sail. Alternativey, I can see no good reason, in decent weather at any rate, not to lay a course of 090M which allowing for the tide setting to the South West now would land us fairly directly in the vicinity of the Oostendnake E Port hand buoy (indicated by the square symbol but not shown at this chart scale)
From there' we head directly into port, being aware of the tidal set to the South West across the entrance.
Why not head straight in you ask? Well there's marine nature reserves all over the shop and whilst it's very clear that there is no entry to the inshore zone, the rules on transiting the next bit further out are vague and also not available in original form in English. For the sake of a mile or so, best to stay clear methinks.
ETA Ostend 17:00. Yes, I'll have a bier, thank you very much!
PS. Yes, I've noticed "Bad Weater Route". I'm just trying to get into character alright?
PPS. Make your own plan, use mine at your peril. Don't blame me if you meet with doom, gloom and disaster by relying on the handful of well pickled brain cells I have left. You have been warned!
PPPS. I'm actually planning to go via Dover anyway!
PPPPS. ALL plans are subject to change on the day. I point this out because my fan club (aha ha ha) has a habit of giving me stick when I change plans I've spent time on before a trip during the actual trip itself. As far as I'm concerned, time spent planning is never time wasted. And also as far as I'm concerned changing a plan is not a failure. It is failing to change the plan when the basis of that plan has changed that is a failure. There, got that off my chest. I feel better now.
sailorman
Well-Known Member
See you some time saturday the Bru
Bru
Well-Known Member
I'll be ready to bail you out Rog :encouragement:
sailorman
Well-Known Member
I would worry about the Fairy Bank a minimum of 6m over it. I thought you were an East Coaster
Bru
Well-Known Member
I'm not actually worried about it at all. My planned route goes right over it, no bother. I merely took into consideration the advice from the pilot book to avoid it in bad weather and planned a route around it to use if necessary. As mentioned, I don't expect it to be necessary but I hold by my view that time spent planning is never wasted and I'd rather have plan B in my back pocket before I set out than have to work it out on the fly when it's all gone pear shaped
sailorman
Well-Known Member
Fairy nuff
Phoenix of Hamble
Well-Known Member
Jeepers!
I don't even want to think how you'd go about coping in that weather....I guess that it would be a series drogue, and a LOT of praying!
Koeketiene
Well-Known Member
My head hurts.
Given my simple, naval training, I'll stick to my tried and trusted 130M.
With the odd 'left hand down a bit' as and when the situation requires.
See you there. :encouragement:
Have been able to juggle some shifts, so if I'm not in Bahrain at the time I will be able to make it to Ostend for the festival.
Planning to cross on the Thursday. My youngest and his latest squeeze crewing.
sailorman
Well-Known Member
My head hurts.
Given my simple, naval training, I'll stick to my tried and trusted 130M.
With the odd 'left hand down a bit' as and when the situation requires.
See you there. :encouragement:
Have been able to juggle some shifts, so if I'm not in Bahrain at the time I will be able to make it to Ostend for the festival.
Planning to cross on the Thursday. My youngest and his latest squeeze crewing.
Latest squeeze :disgust:, the last time i saw him in Oostend he was paddling a dinghy in the rain
CliveG
Well-Known Member
This Open CPN seems to be worth a look.
I have tried to go the their website (opencpn.org) but it is unavailable
I found the link on Google.
Is there an problem with their site or am I doing something silly?
I have tried to go the their website (opencpn.org) but it is unavailable
I found the link on Google.
Is there an problem with their site or am I doing something silly?
sailorman
Well-Known Member
Yep the site is down
MoodySabre
Well-Known Member
Erbas stop thinking. Get to LSH at low water so you use the big tide to get there. Aim across the Sunk TSS as obliquely as you dare, the tide will do the rest. The chance of there being anything out there is slim so nobody knows you are there. Change heading if something is coming. It ain't difficult as even I did it for the first time once.
sailorman
Well-Known Member
He has a very long car bonnet & is well under it, just his feet sticking out over the radiator cap
