Black sailors

Re: back the original post tho...

Well, you might wish to tell Anthony Nesty of Surinam, who won Olympic gold in Seoul in the 100m butterfly, and set a record in the process (and won a bronze in Barcelona as well).

98anesty_small.jpg


Or Maritza Correia, who made the US swim team for Athens, and gives some reasons here as to why more black people don't swim. Oddly enough, none of the reasons are genetic, they're all economic.
 
Re: Gender issue subthread

If we move on to gender then we may come across some of the same problems there’ve been with race – conflating issue of inheritance with cultural effects, and over-stating or completely misunderstanding the contribution of the former. So, maybe a starting point would be to separate them out. There are in both, biological differences as well as differences that arise from the effects of culture. When it comes to men and women we can call these:

a) Sex – differences that are inherited. One example is intellectual abilities. In general women are intellectually more able than men in all normative tests except spatial reasoning. (These types of findings are only ever statistical statements in that men and women will over-lap to some degree – e.g. some women are faster/stronger than some men, and some men are more socially able than some women.)

b) Gender – how a man or woman sees themselves in relation to their sex as a result of expectations placed on them by a given society (beliefs such as; men are strong women are weak, men are good at engineering women are not, men are less “emotional” than women.) Because of these expectations women and men grow up with different kinds of constraints and permissions such that they may deny and fail to explore certain aspects of their own personal nature. And exactly the same thing can be said of race and cultural identity.

There are some great women engineers and scientists out there – and some great women sailors whose range of skills is far greater than mine will ever be. And some great Asian and African explorers/sailors – where do you think we all came from 150,000 years ago? And the stuff about black people not being suited to swimming ranks among the most ridiculous things I’ve ever read. That people believe this is frightening.

Overall, each of us only becomes some part of what our, or the dominant, culture from time to time allows/constructs for us (there is space for individuality – but it can be a hard road).
 
Re: back the original post tho...

You've missed the point. I quite clearly stated that black swimmers can compete at international level, just that genetics doesn't help them - this is a population genetics thing, not everyone will confirm to a particular body type, it's a normal distribution curve, so there will always be exceptions. It's a rule of thumb, more than a blanket statement
 
Yes, some thousands

When I lived in Beijing. But of course I was forgetting that, to the British, the Chinese are not "Asians".
 
Re: back the original post tho...

I feel that there are several different reasons why there are very few UK black people involved in sailing.

Firstly, simple numbers. A very tiny proportion of UK citizens are black. Cerainly less than 10% I'm sure.

Of those many are unlikely to pursue sailing as a result of social and economic circumstances and/or aren't fortunate enough to live near to yacht havens and such areas that sailing is a common pastime. I learnt to sail on holiday as a child - a very good and trusted friend, who is black and whose daughter is my Godchild, never went on holiday as a child. I used to work all week to save up the money to trail my dinghy to Cardigan Bay - my friend couldn't get a proper job and has only just started his first proper job at 38 after obtaining a degree in later life - such is the gulf.

I also think that culturally Europeans are very proud of their maritime history and we indulge ourselves in it and we have a romantic view of it. Heroes are made of explorers and colonisers. Imagine what must go through the mind af a most black people looking at a square rigger in comparison to you and I. A shudder must surely pass down their spine at the unspeakable cruelty to their ancestors that such ships helped to propogate. I just don't think sailing is on the radar of most black people in this country - certainly owning a sailing yacht isn't.

That said I think it highly unlikely that their are no black UK yachtsmen or women. Just very few. Though I foresee an increase, especially in motor yacht ownership or useage.
 
Re: Yes, some thousands

[ QUOTE ]
to the British, the Chinese are not "Asians".

[/ QUOTE ]

correct - PC speak has a particular vocabulary for ethnic minorities which is supposed to avoid giving offence.

'Black' means anyone less than 90% white.
'Coloured' used to be a euphemism for Black, now the reverse applies.
'Asian' means people from India, Pakistan or Bangladesh, not 'from Asia' just as 'American' means from the USA, not from the Americas.

There's nothing new about this hijacking of vocabulary to mean something specific, it goes on all the time - you have to be very careful saying "I feel gay" for example.
 
Re: back the original post tho...

[ QUOTE ]
II also think that culturally Europeans are very proud of their maritime history and we indulge ourselves in it and we have a romantic view of it. Heroes are made of explorers and colonisers. Imagine what must go through the mind af a most black people looking at a square rigger in comparison to you and I. A shudder must surely pass down their spine at the unspeakable cruelty to their ancestors that such ships helped to propogate. I just don't think sailing is on the radar of most black people in this country - certainly owning a sailing yacht isn't.


[/ QUOTE ]

An interesting point, which bears out the "it's all down to culture" arguement.
Within Europe there are differences as well. The Brits and the French seem to be the biggest boating countries, with other countries showing less interest. I don't know if the facts bear this out, but I suspect that boat ownership per capita is higher in UK and France.
 
Re: Magazines, culture and peer groups

[ QUOTE ]
Kim

I’m less happy, though, with your statement that there might “simply be a natural tendency not to be interested”. By which you mean either there is an inherited dislike of sailing, which would be a racial statement, or there are cultural reasons for not sailing. Your use of the term “natural” suggests strongly that you mean inherited differences. However, other posts in this thread, which show that many people of African heritage in the US enjoy sailing, suggest that the lack of interest is cultural. Why then use the term “natural” as a first recourse?

The gender free issue? I can’t believe the point you made about women, cooking tips and Ladybird books. You were joking I hope, because even if it was true in the case you sight, it’s not a real argument. I was thinking more about the indirect but powerful gender bias in the language used in magazines like YM. There was even that recruitment competition recently when you/they were looking for a new journalist – and the topics they were asked to choose from and write about?

1) One man and his boat.

I thought I’d slipped through a time warp and ended up back in the 1950s when I read this one.

2) Compare/contrast bilge keels with fin keels.

Awesome leap into controversial territory. Such encourage to have proposed that – a subject that all others avoid for fear of retribution.

What a missed opportunity to attract the attention of a more oblique thinker. Could have gone for, say:

1) Is leisure boating environmentally sustainable in the 21st C?

All kinds of things here from hard wood sustainability through plastic waste to building on sensitive marine environments. There are arguments both ways and it would be interesting for a journalist to explore these.

2) Sail or Float? Is an interest in accommodation pushing sailing into a lost art?

Could have great fun with this – floating in the Solent with the whole family vs a trip to the Western Isles - what really works. (I still can’t get out of my mind boat reviews that have as few as 50 words on sailing).

3) Race or Gender – who sails and why.

Probably wouldn’t be publishable, but it would sort out those who can think critically from those who just haven’t got a clue about what underpins our lives and choices (that isn't a reference to anyone in particular.)

[/ QUOTE ]

I think that you are looking for things that aren't there. I certainly don't think that there was anything racist or sexist about Kim's post. He was merely thinking aloud and in picking him up on one ill chosen word you are beginning to look like a thought policeman.

I am sure that the advert for a journalist asked those subjects because they are relevant to boaters and I fail to see what is wrong with "One man and his boat" as a subject; most boats are owned by men. I for one would not want to see PBO being filled with environmental/equality politics.
 
Re: Magazines, culture and peer groups

It's a problem with all forums of this sort. Kim posts some thoughtful and interesting comments (and Kim is known for being fair and thoughtful, and always maintaining a fair balance) and nitpicking occurs

Similar to my posts, in which I tried hard to maintain a scientific basis, commenting purely on a population genetics, race physiology, and athletics, and someone tries to narrow it down to individuals, as if that proves the entire medical and genetic research field to be incorrect.

Some people are incapable of seeing the big picture, and want to use a microscope to examine the world (we all suffer from that though, and I'm equally as guilty on occasions)
 
Re: Magazines, culture and peer groups

Yes, your scientific/statistical basis is sound. It underpins the reasoning that we Welsh are actually a great footballing nation compared with England - I mean look what we achieve with 2.5m population, compared with the English population of 40+m. Of course, I don't know where that leaves Scotland....
 
Re: Magazines, culture and peer groups

Hmm! Compare that with why we don't play rugby well. I'm Welsh, so allowed to say this) We have a huge rugby union base compared to the huge English population of which a small minority play Union, we should stuff them, but don't....do you want me to explain why? <sigh>
 
Re:Don\'t call me Asian

With the usual ironic timing, Radio4 are at the moment presenting a programme titled 'Don't call me Asian' exploring a whole host of cultural identity issues.

If anyone wants to listen, you can hear playbacks of most Radio 4 programmes on their website, though I can't give a link until the programme has finished. If anyone wants the link, I can post later
 
Re: Magazines, culture and peer groups

A number of reasons, some racial celtic build v anglo saxon and playing base is not relevant! Also, we did stuff them well in the 70's. Compare with West Indies and their cricket (mis)fortunes.
 
Re:Don\'t call me Asian

This is interesting, could I choose to call myself an Historically Indigenous Western European if I don't want to be associated with some peoples concepts of "White" people?
 
this has been a fascinating thread to read as also has been the previous thread in jan 05 ( before i was on the internet ).
i like black people, i like indian people, i like pakistani peiople, i like chinese people, i like japanese people, i like french people, i like spanish people, i like maltese people, i like greek people, i like irish people ( i think the first "
foreigner" i ever met was irish ! ), i like jewish people, i like venezelan people, i like south african people, i like argentinian people, i like american people, i like swiss people, i like italian people, i like english people, i even like some scottish people. So far as i can recall that`s a roll call of the nationalities i have come across in a varied life. i am sure that if i were to come in contact with a sufficient number of these same nationalities i would find a few that i would dislike/detest.
re cornishman ( 9/1/05 on previous thread ) - quote " could this apply to sailing if its not your natural environment "- unless you were born to a fishing/ merchant navy/naval/hobby sailing then it could hardly be described as a " natural " environment and even then, imo, expertise could only be acquired by experience.
can anyone name a maritme nation on this earth that does <u>not</u> have, at least, an indigenous fishing industry ?
recreational sailing is a pursuit of the leisured classes. up to the end of the first world war most recreational sailors would have been upper classs, up to the end of the second world war most recreational sailors woud have been upper/middle class. since then there has been an explosion of participation in just about every sport due to the availability of same to the " working classes".
so far as climbing is concerned ( re jimi and sgeir ) can i recommend a perusal of mountains of the mind by robert macfarlane, granta books 2003. this will demonstrate that where the capital outlay and time involved is significant the " working class " will follow the " upper " and " middle " class sooner rather than later.
foreign countries may have different explanations but in britain the explanation as to why there may be fewer " black " boaters may be simply due to the johnny come lately syndrome.
i am not a great believer in class or race. for what it is worth my forum name is a private joke derived from a "rhyming" couplet i heard many years ago :-

the working class can kiss my arse,
i`ve got the foreman`s job at last.
 
Re: Magazines, culture and peer groups

Jules,

in the last 16 years I have seen one black person (probably a guest) on a yacht and one black family, possibly chartering, in waters off Devon and Cornwall - both in the last 12 months.
 
Re: back the original post tho...

[ QUOTE ]
An interesting point, which bears out the "it's all down to culture" arguement.
Within Europe there are differences as well. The Brits and the French seem to be the biggest boating countries, with other countries showing less interest. I don't know if the facts bear this out, but I suspect that boat ownership per capita is higher in UK and France.

[/ QUOTE ]

Speaking of history and culture, don't forget the Greeks who BTW also own the largest commercial fleet /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

And yes, I think that tradition is the main reason. Since my early days I live near the sea, in the school I learned about sea-battles 2500+ years ago, my uncle or cousin or grandfather or neighbour maybe is/was a sailor and in general I have learned to love the sea. It's like wondering why the British are not so keen about skiing as the Swiss... Not that there are no other reasons, but I think this is the main one. All IMHO.

BTW I think that all people (almost wrote men /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif) are equally skilled except the white ones that cannot jump or run.
 
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