Black sailors

Re: Magazines, culture and peer groups

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I don't think it matters that people don't want to sail.


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I think it does - you might possibly be trying to push toothpaste back into the tube without some research to at least prove that there are hard cases of exclusion - there might well be, but I for one just don't know.

This debate has so far not managed to isolate hard evidence that ethnic minorities in Britain ARE being excluded or whether there might simply be a natural tendency not to be interested.

Yacht clubs can be intimidating - for all. No doubt that might be exacerbated again for people of ethnic minorities but are they personally motivated to get boating, that is my first question?

There is not a history of riding horses in my family (other than through marriage with apologies to sister-in-law), I am completely disinterested in the notion of riding a horse and don't at all feel excluded. Bit of a weak example but hopefully you know what I mean.

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The point is about not excluding people who may want to try sailing. And, of course, the way things are portrayed in the media is a part of this - possibly a major part. Exclusion acts invisibly through the way things are presented and talked about - we could have the same discussion about disability, then notions of access would perhaps be clearer.

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But the fact remains that the images have to connect to something. So perhaps we set out to deliberately place an image of someone from an ethnic background who in fact is a model that is simply toughing it out on the boat because we are paying them to do it? Or we advertise for a family from an ethnic background so we can write an article saying (in effect) "see, just because you come from background X, Y or Z that doesn't mean you cannot enjoy boating" - dangerous territory really. At best it might smack of false motives.

I can assure you that no-one is writing letters to us, or calling us, or posting messages on this forum, or emailing us to say they feel excluded from boating. I'm not saying that is concrete evidence of anything very much but all commercial enterprises react to the perceived demand around them , not least because there is already more to do than we have time to do it, and magazines are not really any different to that in many senses.

If there are people reading this thread and they feel excluded (bearing in mind ybw forums have no 'people' shots on masthead and, other than being a single language site, has no racial barriers) then please say, by email, private message or posting here. We would of course like to learn about that - it's a big reason why we run this area.

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In general your magazines are very non-campaigning.


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Granted there's not a new campaign on every front cover. Relevant to this thread I did spend much of the 1990s promoting, running and getting involved in various campaigns to get a wider number of people afloat as it happens. Those campaigns did not manage to bring in many people of ethnic minority origin (despite going around many different parts of the country). It wasn't a campaigning aim as such, we simply wanted to improve access to information and sampling of the experience - so I guess you could argue it was never going to be completely effective in a multi-racial sense because it didn't take positive steps to reach a specific audience beyong people that don't ordinarily go boating.

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It's not about thinking about China; it's about opening up access to a multi-cultural Britain - to your magazine as well as sailing.

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Apologies, one of my jobs now is to very much look at the international scene so if I occasionally blather about a far continent or two then you'll have to forgive the slip. That said, I have found in recent times that an appreciation of racial and cultural background from travelling overseas is a very valuable aid to understanding issues closer to home.

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Why not ask around and see what people from ethnic minorities may want to see in YM or your other publications.

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Again potentially dangerous territory for the untrained it has to be said. Why would someone from an ethnic minority want to see something different to a middle class white person?

Why would a woman want to see a fundamentally different boating magazine to a man? A predominantly female team tried that in the US and wound up publishing a magazine full of cooking tips and Ladybird book of boating articles - it was, without doubt, the worst example of discrimination against in women in boating I have ever seen.

We should of course absolutely ensure the basics are covered in terms of respecting the views of all people of whatever origin (a policy I certainly try to pursue here, hence my interest in this thread). Where you go after that is surely quite tricky?

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Maybe start by avoiding gendered language and then work to become even more inclusive?


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I don't know where our magazines are at with, say, yachtsman versus yachtsperson, boats being gender-free (presume that is the only safe way of dealing) and so on.

At the moment boats are generally 'its' until named, then they become 'shes' - would people like to see that change?

Incidentally not trying to defend anything here - genuinely interested to tease out some more learning regarding where people think we should be on some of these issues.
 
Think you will find that the examples you have quoted are the exception rather than the rule .. and yes a lot depends on your defintion of working/middle class but undoubtedly the main participants in climbing and sailing in the UK come from very similar socio economic backgrounds -- note I did'nt say racial as IMHO the cause is socio economic although there is a high correlation between race & socio economic class. I would use the Irish in England at the turn of the century as being very similar although rhere was no clour difference there.
 
I was in England at the turn of the century. Blatant racism if you ask me. Colour difference? - Nothing wrong with very white freckled skin and red hair? You try it.
And then there's the eye spacing.....
 
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Clearly there can’t be any intellectual nor physical reason. People from all ethnic groups are inseparable from each other with respect to each of these two categories.

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I would be interested to see if you can really support that assertion. To imply that there are no physical differences between races seems absurd.

To give a few examples. The Japanese are smaller than Caucasians and generally are reputed to be smoother skinned. Africans hair is different from Caucasians. Doctors tell us that some races are more prone to certain illnesses. Skin colours differ. Some differences may be as a result of culture, some may be more fundamental.

Note, I am not saying that anyone is any worse than any one else because of these differences, I am just saying that differences exist and there may be more than these obvious ones. Why not celebrate the differences rather than deny them on the alter of political correctness?

There may well be other differences between the races and, I think that this is what this thread was getting at with the question about body weight. Does anyone really know?
 
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There may well be other differences between the races and, I think that this is what this thread was getting at with the question about body weight. Does anyone really know?

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Yes, there are many medically documented differences. Some of them, relating to physical abilities related to athletic capablities are documented in this summary here , but there are considerably more (such as resistance to malaria, or lactose intolerance). Most would mean very little to people without medical or scientific backgrounds eg relating to metabolic pathways in muscle activity
 
Re: Magazines, culture and peer groups

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At the moment boats are generally 'its' until named, then they become 'shes' - would people like to see that change?

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Absolutely not!

A boat has and always will be a she. Is it offensive to call her she, next we will be having to say herstory instead of history or take the man out of woman to make it wo, then we would get battered for being chauvinist in the same way as wolf whistling! look at the woooo over there, slap!
 
This is an interesting discussion and it is good to see that in the 21st Century the debate has moved on and it is ok to hint at the possibility of minor physiological racial differences within the human race. Hopefully over the next 100 years this will be studied more and science will one day explain why I cannot dance.

Material wealth is obviously being acquired by the ethnic minorities in the UK so this is no longer an explanation for the absence of black sailors but I think it can take another generation before attitudes to spending wealth change.

A sporty black female colleague is mad keen to go sailing on my new yacht this season and I look forward to seeing how she reacts to a completely new environment and experience. I will also be keeping a covert eye on how the Solent yachting fraternity respond to a pretty black woman walking through a marina.
 
>The Solent yachting fraternity respond to a pretty black woman walking through a marina.<

And of course on your arm /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

I have to say hats off to you JonJo.....a very good post and you will find that if her interests are there she will I am sure be a very athletic crew member that you will want to keep!

Dave
 
Brendan,

That's helpful, though I must admit I don't fully understand it all. However it does seem to confirm that, depite the denials of the PC brigade, there are real differences between the races. Vive la difference!

What amazes me is that the PC brigade, in denying the differences, are effectively insisting that "you should be the same as me". To my mind that's insulting the very people who they think they are defending.
 
Re: back the original post tho...

back to original post though - brendan is helpfully (?) arguing the other side - but admits that these are differences that mean olympic medal or no olympic medal, not the difference between sinking and floating as put forward by the yot club chap in capetown. Also, brendan makes the point about positive actual differences and on a more mundane level might have mentioned chinese peopel mostly all having black straight hair and so on.

Pleasingly, as this thread wends its way to a close, i agree that differences are fine, part of the rich tapestry and all that.

But differences that support the application of the same negative traits of some in a group to all members of that group to their disadvantage (they'll sink! they're ciminals, they are diseased) and unspokenly applies the *reverse* to the group for whom such a position would be advantageous (they're white - so they'll all float, they're honest, they are healthy) ... is precisely the starting point of apartheid and the very essence of racism.
 
Very real differences have been know for a long time, and even back in my school days, was taught at O and A level biology - malarial resistance in Africans for instance, has a genetic basis, which directly leads to the very debilitating sickle cell anaemia disease, but the thinking is that the benefits to survival of malarial resistance outweigh the negatives of sickle cell anaemia. Hence this is used to show how genetic natural selection occurs in humans. Asian races such as Japanese are notoriously prone to lactose and alcohol intolerance compared to northern europeans for instance.

Other issue are why Kenyans for instance are so good at long distance running - again, their heritage is jogging long distances in incredible heat while hunting, and have developed over time a physiology perfectly suited to long distance running, and regularly stuff the rest of the world in competition.

Many of the deep level reasons are understood (biologically speaking), others are not. The fact of the matter is that there are discernible differences between people from different regions, and usually due to the habitat in which they live.

Sadly, racism and politics intrudes into the scientific domain, and there have been huge and intense debates about some areas of difference, and I'm not going to get into that here as it is long winded and a bit complicated
 
Re: back the original post tho...

Exactly, as I stated in an earlier post, the difference is not such that blacks cannot make competion swimmers, just that tiny advantages can make the difference between medal and no medal at top competion. Many blacks compete extremely well, and there is certainly no basis to the fact that they will sink, so cannot swim - that is complete rubbish. I'm taking the scientists line, there are physiological differences, but only have an effect on top competiton swimmers (in an attempt to explain why such things are mentioned quite legitimately on some websites, and less legitimately on some openly racist websites)

The differences are very fine, and because things are averaged out across populations, you'll find similar characteristics in white populations, but to a lesser extent, and you'll find blacks with lower body mass who would make great competitive swimmers, just less of them as a percentage.

I do not condone the use of perfectly normal differences between people from different historical habitats, which have resulted in them adapting biologically to live efficiently in that habitat, as a way of discriminating against them.
 
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it is good to see that in the 21st Century the debate has moved on and it is ok to hint at the possibility of minor physiological racial differences within the human race

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I think the sad thing is that very few are willing to make these assertions, even in the 21st Century, and they are usually the ones who are aware of real facts, rather than supposition.

The vast majority either duck the facts, or are unaware. It's quite nice with a thread like this to put forward the truth, in an environment which doesn't blatantly become racist. I'm sure there are more than a few forum members who are racist, and are dying to dive in here, but for once they are out gunned, unlike in parts of UK society.

I just wish there were a few more 'ethnic' forum members about to put forward their thoughts on this, but in their absence, those of us that don't much consider ethnic considerations to be important (other than when people are subjected to prejudice) have to argue the case, which is also a shame

PS don't agree with tcm that this thread has run it's course, there's a lot more to be talked about, if people will just admit they have issues or doubts, but are probably reluctant to discuss them, as it's something of a taboo topic
 
Very astute observations Brendan. It may well take a few more threads to tease out all the fluff!
Although it was my own, can I say the thread remained interesting and on-topic to this point, despite attempts to hijack it off in crazy directions as usual. More of these please guys!!!!!

Regards, and thanks to all for replying.
 
i think we've now firmly put the lid on any notions that there is a physical reason for the lack of balanced ethnic representation in boating. i am inclined to the view that it's a cultural issue. the 'black' ethnic communities simply don't see the point in a lot of activities that are enjoyed by white middle class british people. for example have you ever seen an asian with a pet dog?
 
Sorry, snowleopard, but it is fairly common in my part of Leeds. They do tend to be Alsatians, though and it is cear that there may be other considerations than just companionship. That would be true of many owners of these types of breeds across all communities, however. It is less common with Moslem asians as there are serious religious 'cleanliness' issues in relation to prayers and attendance at mosque.
 
Re: Magazines, culture and peer groups

Kim

You raise an interesting point about “hard exclusion”, and in the same way early Christian missionaries may have believed that members of traditional cultures really did want to be converted to Catholicism, they just needed the opportunity to be presented to them. I’m not saying sailing is by any means as important as a core religious belief, but the same process lies beneath each attempt to suppose that it is right to anticipate values in other cultures.

I’m less happy, though, with your statement that there might “simply be a natural tendency not to be interested”. By which you mean either there is an inherited dislike of sailing, which would be a racial statement, or there are cultural reasons for not sailing. Your use of the term “natural” suggests strongly that you mean inherited differences. However, other posts in this thread, which show that many people of African heritage in the US enjoy sailing, suggest that the lack of interest is cultural. Why then use the term “natural” as a first recourse?

On the second point, of course images do have to connect to something, and my general point about consulting outwith one’s own culture is relevant here. It isn’t for the white community to decide what is relevant, but the minority culture itself. This can only be done through research/consultation.

“I can assure you that no-one is writing letters to us, or calling us, or posting messages on this forum, or emailing us to say they feel excluded from boating. I'm not saying that is concrete evidence of anything very much but all commercial enterprises react to the perceived demand around them , not least because there is already more to do than we have time to do it, and magazines are not really any different to that in many senses.”

The invidiousness of exclusion stems from its insidious action. Most often we don’t know we are being excluded. As a simple example, it was only when I worked in London for a time that I finally knew how southern English biased is the TV and radio news.

And reacting to what is immediately perceived is exactly what is taking place both there, in TV and radio (how different the World service is on many occasions) and in other mainstream media. That is, acting instinctively on what is already known or believed. This leads instantly to the exclusion of a large number of those who see the world differently.

And of course there is always too much to do, it’s about priorities. That’s why, rightly or wrongly, I’m spending time I don’t have writing this, and why you are reading this thread with interest and engagement.

In terms of your magazines being non-campaigning. I meant in terms of their culture, not whether or not they express views on normative issues such as red diesel.


I agree with you about travel. I’ve been lucky enough to travel to many places around the globe. In India, I have to say that it wasn’t a lack of marinas that first came to mind, that was, instead, cultures far less trapped by commodity status than we are (but, of course, in the main, experiencing other forms of disadvantage). My impression was that sailing is unlikely to be seen as something of value at this time. But is that important? I don’t think so. I can still remember vividly crowds of people in southern India gathering each night to watch the sun set. A daily spiritual observance, with people laughing and chatting. What a way to enjoy the sea!

The gender free issue? I can’t believe the point you made about women, cooking tips and Ladybird books. You were joking I hope, because even if it was true in the case you sight, it’s not a real argument. I was thinking more about the indirect but powerful gender bias in the language used in magazines like YM. There was even that recruitment competition recently when you/they were looking for a new journalist – and the topics they were asked to choose from and write about?

1) One man and his boat.

I thought I’d slipped through a time warp and ended up back in the 1950s when I read this one.

2) Compare/contrast bilge keels with fin keels.

Awesome leap into controversial territory. Such encourage to have proposed that – a subject that all others avoid for fear of retribution.

What a missed opportunity to attract the attention of a more oblique thinker. Could have gone for, say:

1) Is leisure boating environmentally sustainable in the 21st C?

All kinds of things here from hard wood sustainability through plastic waste to building on sensitive marine environments. There are arguments both ways and it would be interesting for a journalist to explore these.

2) Sail or Float? Is an interest in accommodation pushing sailing into a lost art?

Could have great fun with this – floating in the Solent with the whole family vs a trip to the Western Isles - what really works. (I still can’t get out of my mind boat reviews that have as few as 50 words on sailing).

3) Race or Gender – who sails and why.

Probably wouldn’t be publishable, but it would sort out those who can think critically from those who just haven’t got a clue about what underpins our lives and choices (that isn't a reference to anyone in particular.)
 
Re: Gender issue subthread

I would be intersted to hhear more about this. Really, is there a specific gender-based reason why women tend not to be attracted to technical careers or pastimes? As always lots of exceptions.

Specifically, I hear of no real female invasion into not hankering after the primarily-tecnical careers (think of everything from tyre fitters, car repair, boat repair, computer fixer, carpentry) - and these are not badly paid jobs, nor is there an especially high bar (long waiting list etc) to entry.

I am minded to think that yes, there must be some wiring in the male human brain that attracts them to these jobs, or other wiring in female brains that deters them.

What does seem an attrcative occupation is where any of these technical activities is a secondary issue. I suppose sailing/boating is an example, just about. Think of all the women you know who go boating, praps owning/skippering their own boat. Now, how many of those really seem to enjoy tinkering with the boat as a primary activity for days or even weeks on end, finding new tasks, almsot joyfully finding that the job will take six times more than planed, or unearthing yet new projects half through, delighting in the list of jobs, creating new lists, buying technical items on the half-chance that a problem will occur and so on - all rather than as a necessity/safety issue to be carried quickly and enjoyed hardly at all in order to get on with the boating. I know of lots of female boaty types, but none are like this. Not one. But loads of males are.

Incidentally, I am borderline tinkering nerd , which probaly means a very bad case...
 
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