Bobobolinsky
Well-Known Member
It's also described in Fred Bingham's "Boat Joinery & Cabinet Making"
Robin
Robin
Bl**%y teak decks again
- Thread starter bromleybysea
- Start date
Tranona
Well-Known Member
Problem with trying to re-use existing teak is that you are unlikely to get it off GRP in one go. It will also likely be worn unevenly and you still have all the holes to deal with. Often teak has to be forcibly removed by chisel or a router.
I suggested using veneers in an earlier post - I did this more than 15 years ago on plywood locker lids with great success, "caulking" with thickened, pigmented epoxy. However the lids are completely flat and the cockpit is covered so it is not exposed to UV or extremes of temperature and humidity. They are as good as new. Gougeon Brothers recommend this method on wooden decks, but have now suggested Sika type caulking as differential expansion can crack the seams. Another drawback is that you can only realisticaly do straight strips. I have had less luck using epoxy to bond to GRP and now use Sika for both bonding and caulking when using veneers. Would not epoxy thick strips as it is difficult to get a good bond particulalry when trying to get edge set as well. Differential expansion and a non-flexible bond may also cause problems, so preferred method is to use Sika.
Hope this helps
Ifraser
Well-Known Member
Tranona...
There speaks the voice of experience... I did say I'd never done it and I am all too aware that life is never as simple as it should be... I did have another idea that, whilst not being as complete a repair as the re-decking but remove all the screws clean out the holes and remove any rotten core in the deck underneath using the method described by the gougeon brothers of using a bent nail in a drill to remove a disc of the core material then inject epoxy into the holes then replace the screws or not depending on how well you think the teak is stuck down. This wouldn't re-bond the whole deck but would seal all the points where water gets into the core and onwards down into the boat. Again I haven't done it and I haven't even read about it this time its just an idea... any views on the idea welcome as I might try it if Tranona is correct and my teak does not want to come off in one piece.. cheers Iain
There speaks the voice of experience... I did say I'd never done it and I am all too aware that life is never as simple as it should be... I did have another idea that, whilst not being as complete a repair as the re-decking but remove all the screws clean out the holes and remove any rotten core in the deck underneath using the method described by the gougeon brothers of using a bent nail in a drill to remove a disc of the core material then inject epoxy into the holes then replace the screws or not depending on how well you think the teak is stuck down. This wouldn't re-bond the whole deck but would seal all the points where water gets into the core and onwards down into the boat. Again I haven't done it and I haven't even read about it this time its just an idea... any views on the idea welcome as I might try it if Tranona is correct and my teak does not want to come off in one piece.. cheers Iain
Tranona
Well-Known Member
Depends on what the core is. If it is foam that might work as generally unless there is a failure between the GRP and foam then water will not have spread far. If it is balsa rot may have set in. Only way to find out is to take a few screws out and explore - choose some where the plugs are loose or there is damp around them as these are more likely to have water ingress.
Tedious job, but might be better than a strip off.
Tedious job, but might be better than a strip off.
Koeketiene
Well-Known Member
Ifraser
Well-Known Member
No kidding
ooh er!! I think I'll just go with removing screws and filling holes with epoxy to try and stop any further water getting into core... damage limitation!!
Koeketiene
Well-Known Member
I know exactly how you feel
However, you have to seriously consider your long-term plans for the boat.
If you plan to keep her, your course of action may well give you another few years, but eventually the whole deck will have to come off. Be under no illusion.
For a few years we did exactly what you're planning to do. This did not mean the problem went away, it just became less obvious. There's the moisture already trapped underneath to consider - the rot will continue - maybe more slowly, but no less surely.
Teak decks >15 years are a ticking time bomb. Will you be holding it when it goes off?
I love our boat; but if I had known what I know now... If there's ever another boat -> no teak decks!
Salty John
Well-Known Member
In the case of the OP, if I understand it correctly, the deck is sitting in a recess on solid GRP, rather than being screwed onto a cored deck. I don't know what fasteners are used to hold the teak onto the solid GRP deck - screws, bolts, rivets? I'd be tempted to pull the plugs, remove the fasteners and fill the holes with epoxy, or I might even be tempted to remove the plugs, pour epoxy on top of the fastener and re-plug. Depends on the source of the leaks.
Ifraser
Well-Known Member
Who's idea was it to build them like that!!
All I can say is... what a bloody stupid way to build them in the first place!! I'm not a boat builder but I know enough to know that if you put holes in your cored deck then eventually water will get through.. I'm sure they could have found a better way!! Anyway its been great to hear all the advice on here.. cheers Iain
I know exactly how you feel
However, you have to seriously consider your long-term plans for the boat.
If you plan to keep her, your course of action may well give you another few years, but eventually the whole deck will have to come off. Be under no illusion.
For a few years we did exactly what you're planning to do. This did not mean the problem went away, it just became less obvious. There's the moisture already trapped underneath to consider - the rot will continue - maybe more slowly, but no less surely.
Teak decks >15 years are a ticking time bomb. Will you be holding it when it goes off?
I love our boat; but if I had known what I know now... If there's ever another boat -> no teak decks!
All I can say is... what a bloody stupid way to build them in the first place!! I'm not a boat builder but I know enough to know that if you put holes in your cored deck then eventually water will get through.. I'm sure they could have found a better way!! Anyway its been great to hear all the advice on here.. cheers Iain
Seakindly
Well-Known Member
Am having to repair non-skid on mine soon and am probably going to use this method:
http://www.epoxyworks.com/22/pdf/Ew22_Nonskid.pdf
as it's not convenient to 'camoflage' the repair with a new deck fitting! Accounts in US forums say it's not too difficult to achieve a repair - easier too I imagine to pattern a new slab of deck. Company not easy to contact though. If you go down the GRP route, it might look more 'appropriate' pattened than all areas flat. I suppose buyers looking at your class of boat will want the classic teak deck, but perhaps nowadays, as the maintenance issues are better known, a really good replacement job might not hit resale too much?
http://www.epoxyworks.com/22/pdf/Ew22_Nonskid.pdf
as it's not convenient to 'camoflage' the repair with a new deck fitting! Accounts in US forums say it's not too difficult to achieve a repair - easier too I imagine to pattern a new slab of deck. Company not easy to contact though. If you go down the GRP route, it might look more 'appropriate' pattened than all areas flat. I suppose buyers looking at your class of boat will want the classic teak deck, but perhaps nowadays, as the maintenance issues are better known, a really good replacement job might not hit resale too much?
Tranona
Well-Known Member
Well said! Latest technique is to pre-fabricate panels and then vacuum bag onto deck. Avoids the holes, but teak is thinner to reduce weight. Understand some manufacturers hold the strips in place with staples from underneath while the panel is being formed. Might be fun when these wear down! Also not sure how one would replace such panels if they wear out. However, the cockpit sole and seats of my Bavaria are done this way. Still fine after 9 years except for a bit of caulking coming out. Strips are laid straight which I think is part of the secret as there is no strain caused by differential expansion.
bromleybysea
Well-Known Member
Well, all I can say is what a great set of replies. Not sure if it solves the problem but sure gives lots of food for thought during those long winter evenings.
Chris_Robb
Well-Known Member
Well Malo still screw and plug their decks. When I asked why, they said because it was 12mm teak, it would work and twist if only epoxied down.
Another good reason for not buying teak decks - and in the case of MALO - not buying it at all, as you cannot buy it without teak.
Blueboatman
Well-Known Member
Hi Bromley Sur Mer, you don't say what the boat is,other than Swedish, but if you are absolutely certain that the deck is not cored with Balsa then I reckon you are laughing..
Specifically :
Are any of the teak planks actually loose, lifting or curling up ?
Has the caulking come away in places where the deck is worn down the most?
And in the thinnest places, how thick EXACTLY is the remaining teak ? ( Poke a knife blade ,tiny screwdriver or needle down into one of the tiredest seams)....
...Because it is not a particularly skilled or big job to remove each and every plug(!), unwind the stainless screw, and reset it in sikeflex and then pop a new plug over each one and gently sand the whole lot flat, in particular removing deck fittings where the teak looks highest (least worn) and sand theses high spots down level with the remainder of the deck..
Cos the leaking is from the screws or loose deckhardwear, innit..
Maybe post a piccy or two before taking this any further?
Specifically :
Are any of the teak planks actually loose, lifting or curling up ?
Has the caulking come away in places where the deck is worn down the most?
And in the thinnest places, how thick EXACTLY is the remaining teak ? ( Poke a knife blade ,tiny screwdriver or needle down into one of the tiredest seams)....
...Because it is not a particularly skilled or big job to remove each and every plug(!), unwind the stainless screw, and reset it in sikeflex and then pop a new plug over each one and gently sand the whole lot flat, in particular removing deck fittings where the teak looks highest (least worn) and sand theses high spots down level with the remainder of the deck..
Cos the leaking is from the screws or loose deckhardwear, innit..
Maybe post a piccy or two before taking this any further?
johna
Well-Known Member
Teak decks
I have a Marina 95 built in Finland in 1979 with the same problem. The cabin tops had teak set into a 9mm deep recess. I say had because two years ago I removed the old teak veneer and ply. The decks are teak strip set on mastic on a foam filled GRP sub-structure. Over the years I have replaced sections where they have thinned and curled.
I have been looking at the alternatives for the past 8 years and still I cannot reach a conclusion. Every argument tells me Flexiteek or similar is the answer but I just cannot face seeing the relatively bright colour on such an old boat; if only they supplied it in a silver teak colour.
I would have no hesitation in using the plastic teaks in the cockpit but the decks.
I Twister Ken reads this can we have an update on your decks that must be three or four yeas old by now.
Sorry this is no help to you bromleybysea but at least you know you are not on your own.
John
I have a Marina 95 built in Finland in 1979 with the same problem. The cabin tops had teak set into a 9mm deep recess. I say had because two years ago I removed the old teak veneer and ply. The decks are teak strip set on mastic on a foam filled GRP sub-structure. Over the years I have replaced sections where they have thinned and curled.
I have been looking at the alternatives for the past 8 years and still I cannot reach a conclusion. Every argument tells me Flexiteek or similar is the answer but I just cannot face seeing the relatively bright colour on such an old boat; if only they supplied it in a silver teak colour.
I would have no hesitation in using the plastic teaks in the cockpit but the decks.
I Twister Ken reads this can we have an update on your decks that must be three or four yeas old by now.
Sorry this is no help to you bromleybysea but at least you know you are not on your own.
John
Twister_Ken
Well-Known Member
My deck is doing very nicely thank you.
New teak in 2004. Laid on mastic, not screwed. Still there. Nice silver grey colour. Thoroughly soaked in Boracol. Hardly ever washed. Almost never brushed.
New teak in 2004. Laid on mastic, not screwed. Still there. Nice silver grey colour. Thoroughly soaked in Boracol. Hardly ever washed. Almost never brushed.
BrianH
Well-Known Member
I have a German acquaintance here in my marina who worked for Rassy then for the company when they bought out Harry Hallburg to become Hallburg-Rassy.
What he tells me is truly amazing. For two years HR designed yachts without teak decks for all the reasons given here - they made no practical sense, were too heavy too high up and had a limited life with damaging side effects - for a horrendous investment in time, money and a material that would be better left in a SE Asian rain forest - except that these days it is usually an inferior product force-grown in plantations all over the tropical belt.
But you know what? No one wanted to buy a quality yacht without a teak deck! HR had to keep adding a teak deck purely on yachting snob grounds until they gave up and made it a standard specification.
He used to come over to my boat while I was sweating (here in Italy I mean that most literally) over my mouldering teak deck both last year and this, trying to delay the inevitability of tearing it all off and laying something more sensible. He would sympathise and reminisce (he was at the yard when my boat was built) about all the horror stories he was privvy to.
So, don't blame the boat builders, screwed down planks were the only way to keep them stable at that time. Instead, blame the consumer who would only accept their boats so adorned.
johna
Well-Known Member
For Twister ken
Pleased to hear the decks are keeping well. Were they laid as individual strips or as panels?
If I remember right installation did not go too well. What advice can you give if we go the teak way.
Pleased to hear the decks are keeping well. Were they laid as individual strips or as panels?
If I remember right installation did not go too well. What advice can you give if we go the teak way.
Twister_Ken
Well-Known Member
Laid as strips.
The installation went well. What didn't go well was that the original installers went bust after the old deck had come off, and before the new deck was laid. The installers, Yarmouth Marine Services, did a good job at relatively short notice.
Advice, apart from checking the bank balance of your contractor?
Do all the work undercover.
Get the new teak in before taking the old stuff off - some of my teak was rejected by the yard when they saw it, which caused a delay in getting more teak in.
Avoid screws.
The installation went well. What didn't go well was that the original installers went bust after the old deck had come off, and before the new deck was laid. The installers, Yarmouth Marine Services, did a good job at relatively short notice.
Advice, apart from checking the bank balance of your contractor?
Do all the work undercover.
Get the new teak in before taking the old stuff off - some of my teak was rejected by the yard when they saw it, which caused a delay in getting more teak in.
Avoid screws.
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Ifraser
Well-Known Member
Radical approach...??
I've just watched Richard Hammonds engineering connections on TV about the Gugenheim Museum in Bilbao... they had to solve the problem of how to prevent the roof leaking when it consists of metal sheets that are through screwed to the underlying structure... surely the screws would let in water?... well apparently not if screwed through a modified bitumen membrane which tightens up around the screws sealing them... maybe an idea for anyone laying a deck to put the membrane down first or at least patches of it where the screws go... Richard Hammond stuck a sheet to the bottom of an Avon redcrest dinghy and then hammered nails through it while afloat and it didn't leak a bit and the Gugenheim museum has never had a leak... so maybe therein lies the answer. I am being a little tongue in cheek here but it seems very simple on the museum so why not under a teak deck... in principle same problem... same solution...? just a thought... Iain
unfortunately probably not much help to those who already have a saturated deck core...
I've just watched Richard Hammonds engineering connections on TV about the Gugenheim Museum in Bilbao... they had to solve the problem of how to prevent the roof leaking when it consists of metal sheets that are through screwed to the underlying structure... surely the screws would let in water?... well apparently not if screwed through a modified bitumen membrane which tightens up around the screws sealing them... maybe an idea for anyone laying a deck to put the membrane down first or at least patches of it where the screws go... Richard Hammond stuck a sheet to the bottom of an Avon redcrest dinghy and then hammered nails through it while afloat and it didn't leak a bit and the Gugenheim museum has never had a leak... so maybe therein lies the answer. I am being a little tongue in cheek here but it seems very simple on the museum so why not under a teak deck... in principle same problem... same solution...? just a thought... Iain
unfortunately probably not much help to those who already have a saturated deck core...