Bilge vs Fin Keel

[Dutch01527]

I had been getting conflicting advice about whether a bilge keel yacht is the best option to base out of Cardiff. I had assumed a bilge keel boat would be most suitable given the drying harbours in the area. We will primarily weekend cruising i.e: sail in day from Cardiff and pub/dinner/sleep in destination. Return the following day. Boat length c. 30 to 35 feet when we upgrade.

A number of yacht club members have said that they prefer a faster fin keel and anchoring off harbours like Porlock Weir or Clovelly and going ashore with a good tender / outboard. That seems to make sense now that I am starting to understand the tidal challenges a bit better

Would a fin keel and choosing destinations dependant on wind direction ( Warchet / Portishead marinas if weather is a little heavy / anchor off smaller drying harbours if conditions are light) be a valid strategy?

 

[sarabande]

Bilge keels give a major access advantage around the Bristol Channel in and out of creeks and mooring areas which are otherwise inaccessible. Performance vs fin - it's debatable with modern assymmetric bilge keel design.

Decision points include the ability to dry out and give the AF a quick clean. The number of times that one sails to obtain the last fraction of a degree to windward are not as many as people might imagine.


A third solution is the lifting keel/centreboard one, which with legs would be a good option

 

[bitbaltic]

Well-

Firstly looking at the sort of sailing you want to do. As you say you want to daysail, my thought is that there will be a lot of other demands from the boat that will come to bear on selection, like nubers of cabins and loos and so on. This is important because you are looking at a size range where keel choices become quite restricted. Most bilge-keel boats are sub 30ft. If you want larger boats with bilge keels, you are looking at some quite old boats which may not be modern enough (things like the Westerly Pentland for example) or things from the last days of British boatbuilding which have a following, are few in number, and are quite expensive (things like the Westerly Oceanquest for example). You may find that the interior you want in port, and the budget you have, will not triangulate with a model that has bilge keels at all. So my first point is that keel type is probably less important to you than you might think it is.

As far as day sailing from Cardiff goes anyway, I am tempted to say that the best day sail destination from Cardiff is Cardiff itself. Do not think about where you might go if the weather is "a little heavy" rather than pleasant weather destinations. If the weather in the BC is "a little heavy" and you are into couples/family daysailing you will not be leaving Cardiff whatever keel configuration you have. Daysailing in the BC is not about the hours of daylight but about where you can get in six hours of tide, because you cannot punch tide (again whatever your keel configuration) so your destinations are Watchet, Portishead, Bristol, just about Swansea. You will always be choosing destinations based on tide not wind. Anyway none of these are drying destinations where bilge keels are useful. OTOH, there are lots more options if you can dry out, but you will not necessarily be able to get to and back from these destinations in single day sails. So bilge keels will be more useful (a lot more useful) if you cruise, but perhaps not if you daysail.

The comment about "faster fin keel boats" makes me wonder whether you have run into some bar salts at whichever yacht club. for the daysailable destinations the LWL of a 35ft boat, whether bilge keel or fin, will be sufficiently fast that you will get wherever in good time. As I say you will not be better off in bad sea states in a fin keeler than a bilge keeler at that size, it is more about weight of the boat than its keel and you will probably not want to be out there in those sorts of seas anyway. Your salts might have a point if you go racing but not for cruising.

Not a recommendation but an observation. When I bought my boat I intended to largely daysail from Cardiff while learning. Consequently I wanted to be able to get in and out of Cardiff at any state of the tide, as much as possible, so I could get in if I didn't like what I found out there. So I wanted a shallow draft rather than a specific keel type. The result was a boat with a wing- 1.2m draft and performance very similar to a fin. SO perhaps you should ask about draft not keel configuration- lifting keels in particular open up a world of much more modern boat interiors as Jenneau/Beneteau etc still make boats of this type. Just a thought?

 

[bitbaltic]

modern assymmetric bilge keel design

That made me grin the idea of asymmetric bilge keels must be more than forty years old. Centaurs have them! 'Modern' bilge keels would surely be the bulb design used by RM (especially as virtually no-one else builds bilge keel boats now). Suppose those are asymmetric as well, but it's not a cutting-edge concept!

 

[SteveSarabande]

I had a fin in Cardiff, but wished I had a bilge. There are loads of places in North Devon that were better in a bilge.

 

[ashtead]

The OP doesn't indicate a potential budget or appetite for renovation of any vessel or desire to travel and or ship any potential target back home. Having sailed a Westerly bilge keeler for many years when looking for our first boat we weren't adverse to concept however choice seemed to be extremely limited although has has been said some French designers offer bilge keels with modern design and so why not approach one of the jeanneau dealers and have a test sail in one? Other choices might be a Legend which I believe also have bilge keels if you wish to avoid the older Westerly or Moody offerings . i am sure there are many bilge keel Moody owners on here or you might make enquiries on the relevant owners site as to relative merits of say a 34 size with respective keels if seeking an older craft . Good luck with search

 

[jwilson]

I no longer sail in the BC but when I did (extensively) I rapidly came to the conclusion that iron (not GRP) bilge keels were the optimum for getting into all the nice small places, and there are quite a number, especially once you head west. GRP bilge keels are OK but you worry about damage from stony bottoms, centreboards sound ideal but you worry about hull damage in the same places. Any form of modern deep fin really restricts you. Long keel or moderate fins that you can dry against a wall also restrict you, but a little less.

Anything will go to windward fairly well with a BC tide under her.....

 

[Allan]

Hi believe we have met. I sailed a 33ft bilge keeler for years from CYC. I have said a few times recently my next boat will be fine keeled. Much better in the mud if you turn left, they sit vertically. If they'll dry against a wall, Watermouth is the only place I have been that they can't get into.
Allan

 

[Dutch01527]

Hi believe we have met. I sailed a 33ft bilge keeler for years from CYC. I have said a few times recently my next boat will be fine keeled. Much better in the mud if you turn left, they sit vertically. If they'll dry against a wall, Watermouth is the only place I have been that they can't get into.
Allan

Allan

That was me. Your advice and similar from other members prompted me to reconsider my assumption that a Bilge Keel was the best option. Still seems to be some differing opinions though. I guess every boat is a compromise and different people see it different ways.

Given my anticipated main type of sailing (out day one / overnight and dinner somewhere nice / back day two or three) anchoring off the drying harbours looks like a necessity. In that case buying the best boat I can find that gives me the space my wife wants and fits my budget (c.15-20k )whatever the keel type might be the way to go.

 

[bitbaltic]

anchoring off the drying harbours looks like a necessity.

The trouble is a lot of them dry so far out that they dry past the point at which they provide sufficient shelter. To make the most of these places you will have to find a way to take the ground. If you could always anchor off easily the debate about going aground in the BC wouldn't exist. But I think:

buying the best boat I can find that gives me the space my wife wants and fits my budget (c.15-20k )whatever the keel type might be the way to go.

Is definitely the right thing to do.

 

[Capt Popeye]

Humm well to me the difficulties with a deep keel boat can be outlined by these pics, taken recently on the River Exe; would appear that the craft had steel legs each side, but one broke free, allowing her to keel over; the ground /river bed is very hard there so she could not dig her keel in at all, resulting in the stranding show here in the pics.

If one assumes that a muddy bottom with sufficient depth of mud to allow her to 'dig her keel in' must always be found before anchoring her , it must mean that one is restricted in the number of suitable anchoring places.

Well this unfortunate event has cost her owners dear

View attachment 63720

 

[Dutch01527]

Maybe I have to rethink my expectations sailing out of Cardiff. I think my conclusions from the excellent advice above is that the North Devon drying harbours are not an option to sail to in one tide, moor or anchor up, go ashore for a meal and return the following day because:
1) leaving at about 2 hours before HW Cardiff will not allow me to enter the harbour close enough to HW to gain access even in a bilge keeler with any margin for delay. Anchoring off or somewhere like Blue Water and waiting for a rising tide to gain access would I guess be possible but that would be a c.12 hour journey for c. 25 miles which is not ideal and would be feasible only on a very early HW at Cardiff
2) leaving at around HW and anchoring off on arrival would work in benign conditions but not be advisable otherwise because of the distance off required and lack of protection.

It looks like sail East, staying near Cardiff or possibly go to Watchet are the only options in anything but light conditions - is that a fair conclusion or is my thinking/understanding wrong?

 

[steveej]

Dutch,

I would go for a fin and this is why.....

Weekend Trips Sailing East from Cardiff you have Bristol, Portishead, Lydney (all of which have water in them). You can also go to Burnham which dries to soft mud, plus a few small yacht clubs dotted around the place that also dry to mud.

Weekend sailing trips heading west, you have Watchet, Swansea and Porthcawl. All of these are marinas but Porthcawl you will need to anchor to wait for tide to come back in as the entrance to the marina dries. Make sure you have good ground tackle and that there is some north in the wind.

Heading west you also have the N.Devon coast which has harbours that tend to dry out where you think a bilge keeler would be beneficial. You have Lundy Island in the far west, along with Woody Bay (food at hotel) and combe martin which are all anchoring regardless of keel type. Ilfracombe, you can against a wall. Watermouth you wont be able to get in with a fin (it is the only place in my list). You then have Lynmouth and Porlock Weir which do dry out. However, the best way to do these in a weekend is to anchor off and go ashore by dinghy.

The reason for this is that when you leave Cardiff at 8am Saturday morning you take the ebb tide which gives you 6 hours sailing west. Once you get to Porlock/Lynmouth you will than have to wait at least 6 hours so that you can get into the actual harbours. This will now be 8pm but you should make it for last orders. At around 8am Sunday morning you will also be at HW and you will need to get out asap, but the problem is that you will not be able to return to Cardiff as the tide will now be ebbing. You will need to wait at anchor for 5 or 6 hours before heading back to Cardiff on the flood. That is a lot of time at anchor just to get the use of your bilge keels!

By far the best way to do Porlock or Lynmouth from Cardiff is to anchor off and go ashore for a few hours, have a walk about, a few pints and a pub lunch, then catch the flood up to Watchet and spend the night in the sanctuary of the marina. This way you can leave Watchet on the Sunday morning and you will be back in Cardiff for mid afternoon.

So the critical issue is that for these places you need to wait at anchor for enough water to get in and that is regardless of keel type. And if you really want to sit on your bilge keels for the weekend you will spend the best part of 12 hours sitting at anchor!

The only place you cannot get to with a fin is Watermouth cove

 

[steveej]

The channel gets rough in bad weather.

My next boat will be a light weight, fast, fin keeled French boat that will allow me a greater safety margin by not getting caught out in bad weather.

 

[bitbaltic]

Maybe I have to rethink my expectations sailing out of Cardiff. I think my conclusions from the excellent advice above is that the North Devon drying harbours are not an option to sail to in one tide, moor or anchor up, go ashore for a meal and return the following day because:
1) leaving at about 2 hours before HW Cardiff will not allow me to enter the harbour close enough to HW to gain access even in a bilge keeler with any margin for delay.

Yes. In general, none of the harbours to the east (drying or not) can be entered on the same tide that takes you there with any margin for error in the timings- the only exception to that is Swansea which on neaps locks down quite close to (but not usually during) LW. You always have to plan to jill around or anchor over LW before entering on a rising tide. That's not a problem of course but it does mean a plan to sail for a few hours, arrive at a decent time of evening, and have a night out can become a lot of hanging around at sea and perhaps a pint and bite before last orders- unless, as you say, you go on a day where HW Cardiff is earlyish in the day, and that might restrict you to a couple of dates a month.

 

[bitbaltic]

My next boat will be a light weight, fast, fin keeled French boat that will allow me a greater safety margin by not getting caught out in bad weather.

I have got one of those (except that it is German ). It does not increase your safety margin all that much!

 

[Capt Popeye]

Dutch,

I would go for a fin and this is why.....

Weekend Trips Sailing East from Cardiff you have Bristol, Portishead, Lydney (all of which have water in them). You can also go to Burnham which dries to soft mud, plus a few small yacht clubs dotted around the place that also dry to mud.

Weekend sailing trips heading west, you have Watchet, Swansea and Porthcawl. All of these are marinas but Porthcawl you will need to anchor to wait for tide to come back in as the entrance to the marina dries. Make sure you have good ground tackle and that there is some north in the wind.

Heading west you also have the N.Devon coast which has harbours that tend to dry out where you think a bilge keeler would be beneficial. You have Lundy Island in the far west, along with Woody Bay (food at hotel) and combe martin which are all anchoring regardless of keel type. Ilfracombe, you can against a wall. Watermouth you wont be able to get in with a fin (it is the only place in my list). You then have Lynmouth and Porlock Weir which do dry out. However, the best way to do these in a weekend is to anchor off and go ashore by dinghy.

The reason for this is that when you leave Cardiff at 8am Saturday morning you take the ebb tide which gives you 6 hours sailing west. Once you get to Porlock/Lynmouth you will than have to wait at least 6 hours so that you can get into the actual harbours. This will now be 8pm but you should make it for last orders. At around 8am Sunday morning you will also be at HW and you will need to get out asap, but the problem is that you will not be able to return to Cardiff as the tide will now be ebbing. You will need to wait at anchor for 5 or 6 hours before heading back to Cardiff on the flood. That is a lot of time at anchor just to get the use of your bilge keels!

By far the best way to do Porlock or Lynmouth from Cardiff is to anchor off and go ashore for a few hours, have a walk about, a few pints and a pub lunch, then catch the flood up to Watchet and spend the night in the sanctuary of the marina. This way you can leave Watchet on the Sunday morning and you will be back in Cardiff for mid afternoon.

So the critical issue is that for these places you need to wait at anchor for enough water to get in and that is regardless of keel type. And if you really want to sit on your bilge keels for the weekend you will spend the best part of 12 hours sitting at anchor!

The only place you cannot get to with a fin is Watermouth cove

Humm maybe kind Sir that I am missing something with your post, can not a Bilge or raising keel boat go to and also do all those trips /destinations that you so well describe ?

 

[Dutch01527]

I am starting to see why people keep the boat in Cardiff during the Winter and also have a mooring in Dale for the summer. Might be a good option if I can get a mooring.

 

[steveej]

Of course they can, but there are far fewer of them about in the 30-35 ft range for a budget of £15-20k. Believe me I have been looking since selling my last boat in December.

There are also other considerations when purchasing a boat, performance of a fin, layout down below, general condition and level of refit required. Keel type would be at the lower end of my list of considerations because I don't see it as being that important for the Bristol channel.

 

[bitbaltic]

I am starting to see why people keep the boat in Cardiff during the Winter and also have a mooring in Dale for the summer. Might be a good option if I can get a mooring.

I'm moving my boat from Penarth to Milford later this month, permanently for the foreseeable future at least. Partly it is because we have a newborn and want easier bluer water but partly it is because I have had enough of the sort of logistics and difficulties you are highlighting in this thread. You might consider whether the extra couple of hours driving pays off better- there are actually pubs with their own pontoons in The haven....