Bilge keelers & taking the ground

[oldharry]

"One of the advantages", are there any more advantages? The more I read the more single keel boats seem to be such an advantage especially encapsulated ones. No keel bolts, no stress cracks, deep bilges, superior sailing etc.

I have to say I thought I would never buy anything with a long keel for the very reasons you give let alone cheaper mooring costs. My draft is only 3" 9" but I am going to be mildly terrified of running aground in Chichester Harbour - you are stuffed if you do! I have a VERY low freeboard (Folkboat!) and would presume if it falls over it will be submerged when the tide comes in . I don't think a depth sounder will be much help either as it wouldn't give you enough warning!

I suppose if you know the terrain, can afford the moorings and are a purist sailor wanting the best performance it would be a single keel every time and my concerns would not be a problem.

"No keel bolts, no stress cracks, deep bilges, superior sailing " Really?! REALLY!? How is a ballast keel attached to a single keeler? EXACTLY the same way as the ballast keels of a bilge keeler - keel bolts. Many bilge keelers do have encapsulated keels, but as they are expected to take the groubd regularly they have steel 'shoes' to protect the relatively soft gelcoat. Encapsulated keels are not always the final answer anyway. If the encapsualtion fails for any reason - usually impact damage, water gets at the iron or steel and rusts. Rust expands and breaks up the encapsulation - a much bigger repair than repalcing the odd keel bolt. There are many well documented episodes of single keel boats losing their keels, and probably about the same with bilge keelers. The Classic was the racer 'Drum' off Falmouth quite a few years ago. And yes, fin keelers can suffer stress cracking just as much as bilge keelers, which tend to be more solidly engineered because of the stresses we have talked about above when taking the ground.

The myth that bilge keelers do not sail as well is also rubbish. It goes back 30 - 40 years ago when the aerondynamics of hull'keel shapes were less well understood, and many tubby bilge keelers were found to have the windward performance of a caravan - they 'blew along nicely, thankyou', but that was all! Even as early as the 1980s Sadlers for example were producing Bilge keelers that in some respects out performed their identical fin keel sisters. No, a bilge keeler is unlikely to have a competitive edge over a fin boat, because it ahas a large wetted surface area , but the difference nowadays is often small fractions of a knot.

And yes I agree entirely - I too would not want to sail a Folkboat in the shallow confines of Chi, which would be a pity, because I would miss three tsailing days out of four in my bilge keel boat - sailing round the shoal waters of Chi!!!!

 

[Searush]

Beaumaris Bay on the Menai Strait as already mentioned has quite a large collection of bilge keelers on drying moorings. Watching and hearing them grounding as the tide falls on a strong North Easterly would put anyone off buying a bilge keeler.

That would explain the Westerly problem there then. I have dried on the Dee at Heswall, Conway (2 very different locations) Caernarfon, Red Wharf Bay and numerous other temporary locations & never had a problem - other than running aground that once (in my first boat) on the windward side of a sandbank. Even then, altho it is an experience I have been careful to avoid since, there was no long term issues whatsoever.

Twin keelers are designed & built to take the ground. And few have any problems doing so.

 

[savageseadog]

I have dried on the Dee.......................... and numerous other temporary locations & never had a problem .....................

I wouldn't ever suggest bilge keelers are a bad thing, quite the opposite in fact but I would be very choosy about when and where I dried mine out, if I owned one. The David Feltham Seawolf and Cobra boats are notably well built and good sailers.

 

[Zagato]

Just read in my local WH Smiths library about a type of pillow that was experimented with whilst the fin keel boat was grounded purposely on The Hamble and then East Head in Chichester. Sounded to be a bit of a faff tying it under the hull and inflating it with an electric pump but it was supposed to protect the hull and raise the lean angle a bit, so it might catch on! It was nice to know that fin keelers should re-float without water entering the cabin unless they have grounded and are lying towards the deep end of the water away from the bank

Interesting also trying to get an anchor out into deeper water using a grounded dinghy in thick mud The reasoning was that this would prevent the boat being pushed further up the bank with an incoming tide. I need to brush up on this cos if it is going to happen it is going to happen to me I even managed to ground my Drascombe last year

 

[Seajet]

Encapsulated Keels

At my club we are all volunteers, helping each other launch or recover the cruisers with a rather good tractor-powered boat hoist.

One of the cruisers is a 1970's grp fin keeler; when I saw her travelling in the hoist the first time I could scarcely believe my eyes; the encapsulated fin was visibly wobbling side to side like a jelly as the hoist went over small bumps !

I grabbed the owner and pointed it out to him, but he wasn't very experienced and seemed to think the 'Ostrich approach' best, pretending this potentially dangerous and expensive problem didn't exist.

He did survive a couple more seasons, during which a fair few people gathered to watch the keel at lay-up & launch days.

Come to think of it I haven't seen that boat for a while...

Also, as Old Harry says most twin keelers have encapsulated stubs, but usually with the keels themselves bolted on in the case of Westerlies etc; some have entirely encapsulated twin keels, as stated steel shoes are usually required.

As my lift keel boat would heel over if I ground accidentally on firm ground ( also in Chichester ! ), I always planned to use a strong seeming inflatable seat from the tender, not too much air in it, to protect the hull as Zagato's wonder-pillow would, very much 'Plan B' but worth a try !

I think Zagato is being modest BTW, Chichester is well marked and anyone who knows enough to choose a Folksong should do OK.

 

[Tidewaiter2]

Darling, the egrets are walking, time to tack!

I think Zagato is being modest BTW, Chichester is well marked and anyone who knows enough to choose a Folksong should do OK.[/QUOTE]

There are two or three Folkboats in EYH, and we don't see them neaped or canted over too often in the approach channel.

I must admit to taking the ground regularly, in CHi, Solent generally,esp RVYC, Herm, the Basse- Normandie harbours like Portbail, Regneville and on ile Brehat further west.

We do like ditch crawling, not so much mucking about in boats, as boating about in muck!
I always think that if you haven't touched gently, inadvertantly, at least once a year, you're not trying!
Used to put the wind up the rest of the crew in my offshore racing in fin keeler days, mind!

So long as you keep off a leeshore or windward side of a bank(mud or sand, it can be like rock), or put out a kedge if there's any chance of a wind shift, it's often the best chance of a quiet few hours to catch up on sleep.

The other thing to do is to clean out your engine seawater filter bowl as soon as you are secure, then when off again, switch off and clean it out again.
A reverse flush with a couple of jugfulls usually does it!

 

[Tidewaiter2]

Darling, the gulls are walking, time to tack!

I think Zagato is being modest BTW, Chichester is well marked and anyone who knows enough to choose a Folksong should do OK.[/QUOTE]

There are two or three Folkboats in EYH, and we don't see them neaped or canted over too often in the approach channel.

I must admit to taking the ground regularly, in CHi, Solent generally,esp RVYC, Herm, the Basse- Normandie harbours like Portbail, Regneville and on ile Brehat further west.

We do like ditch crawling, not so much mucking about in boats, as boating about in muck!
I always think that if you haven't touched gently, inadvertantly, at least once a year, you're not trying!
Used to put the wind up the rest of the crew in my offshore racing in fin keeler days, mind!

So long as you keep off a leeshore or windward side of a bank(mud or sand, it can be like rock), or put out a kedge if there's any chance of a wind shift, it's often the best chance of a quiet few hours to catch up on sleep.

The other thing to do is to clean out your engine seawater filter bowl as soon as you are secure, then when off again, switch off and clean it out again.
A reverse flush with a couple of jugfulls usually does it!

 

[Graham_Wright]

I used to visit Ilfracombe harbour on occasions and agree that the teeth rattling bumps are, well, teeth rattling. One solution was to run up the beach gently (on a falling tide of course). As the tide drops quite rapidly in the Bristol Channel, any discomfort was short lived.

One day a classic yacht moored (very) nearby and produced two very new looking legs. Over the sand, there was about 2" of mud. As she settled, the downside leg started to bend and evtentually she rolled over onto this leg with an almighty sickening crash and rigging, mast and occupants flailing about wildly. That noise is one I never wish to hear again in my life.

All was well in the end with the assessor finding no broken ribs (in the hull not the crew) and a whip round amongst all the boats in harbour produced a giant necklace of fenders and dinghies. Despite a very low freeboard and an open stern, she came up on the tide to the cheers of the onlookers.

PS;- why has the spell checker questioned every word I have just typed?!

 

[Nealo]

I used to visit Ilfracombe harbour on occasions and agree that the teeth rattling bumps are, well, teeth rattling. One solution was to run up the beach gently (on a falling tide of course). As the tide drops quite rapidly in the Bristol Channel, any discomfort was short lived.

One day a classic yacht moored (very) nearby and produced two very new looking legs. Over the sand, there was about 2" of mud. As she settled, the downside leg started to bend and evtentually she rolled over onto this leg with an almighty sickening crash and rigging, mast and occupants flailing about wildly. That noise is one I never wish to hear again in my life.

All was well in the end with the assessor finding no broken ribs (in the hull not the crew) and a whip round amongst all the boats in harbour produced a giant necklace of fenders and dinghies. Despite a very low freeboard and an open stern, she came up on the tide to the cheers of the onlookers.

PS;- why has the spell checker questioned every word I have just typed?!

As I have seen boats dried out in the Kent estuary (Morecambe Bay) many times I wondered if the speed of the tide was a factor.
The views in this thread have been very illuminating. I'm still not sure about the bolted on/encapsulated keels issue.
I read somewhere that the reason bolted on keels are better from a performance point of view is because encapsulated keels have to be more upright than bolted keels because they can't come out of the mould splayed...?
Somewhere else I read that bolted keels are more popular with builders because it means the boat can be fitted out at "ground" level, and the keels fitted towards the end of the process...?

 

[Seajet]

I read somewhere that the reason bolted on keels are better from a performance point of view is because encapsulated keels have to be more upright than bolted keels because they can't come out of the mould splayed...?

Yes, I've heard of that and it sounds spot on to me; if you think of a boat heeling, twin keels splayed so that one is near vertical makes sense, particularly as they're almost always shallower draft, with less grip on the water.

This 'grip' is not often appreciated; after the wind has been blowing in the same direction for a few days, and especially after a gale etc, the whole upper layer of the sea is moving in the downwind direction, in 'surface drift'.

This is usually taken as 1 metre deep as a general rule of thumb.

Hence shallow fin keelers make significantly less good progress to windward in a blow than deep fins which have more 'grip' on the relatively static water under the drift layer - even when the ballast is increased to allow for less righting moment on the shallower keel.

This is not accounting for shape and aspect ratio which is usually better on the deep fin too giving more 'lift'.

Surface drift is most definitely significant enough to require allowing for in dead reckoning, but can only be guestimated unless the navigator knows the boat in question well.

The only snag with splayed keels, apart from the endured drying & floating loads already described, which I reckon one is stuck with if wishing to sail reasonably, is that a splayed keel boat when driving to windward and heeling in a breeze may get waves bashing the shallow windward keel, not a problem but can be noisy.

 

[PeterGibbs]

There seems to have been a lot of discussion on the forum about the merits of bilge keel boats. One of the advantages, according to received wisdom, is the ability of this type of hull design to take the ground, and therefore reap the many associated benefits.

Bilge keel boats also seem more popular on the East/South East coasts.

I don't know enough about yachting yet to figure this out, but it seems to me that if a bilge keel boat is drying out in sheltered waters, a drying harbour or marina, then fine, but otherwise, unless the sea state is flat calm, surely the swell will cause the boat to "bounce" off the drying surface as the tide ebbs?? This must surely place a lot of stress on the keels, unless the tide goes out really fast and plonks the boat down quickly, or have I got this all wrong? I wondered if the reason b/k boats were more popular in the east was because the coast is more "friendly" so to speak.

If this "bouncing" (for want of a better word) is an issue with bilge keelers, would a long keel boat with drying legs be a better bet in such circumstances, because there is more inherent strength in the part of the hull coming into contact with the drying surface?

Multiple landings don't sound like a nice way to treat your boat but that's the price of bilges on tidal moorings. Having said that, there is not a pile of scrapped boats from having succumbed to such treatment - they are generally smaller, so suffer less stress this way.

The country you would think would go mad for bilges is Holland - shallows everywhere. Not so. It's a Brit speciality. And even good bilgers like the Westerly Fulmar (which I owned for 9 years) suffer the dreaded slap between the keels, as well as less pointerly performance.

I for one have moved on to a fin. I don't regret the bilge days (15 years in all, actually) but
in reality there are no worthwhile pluses, unless you want to set down twice a day in the mud.....

PWG

 

[Searush]

(snip)
in reality there are no worthwhile pluses, unless you want to set down twice a day in the mud.....
PWG

But that means cheaper moorings, and the ability to creek crawl & cross sand bars or enter channels early. AND I do like to dry out on nice beaches with the kids twice a day. That's why I wouldn't have anything other than a twin keeler where I sail.

Incidentally the concept of twin keels was "invented" and pioneered by Lord Riversdale (in various designs of Bluebird of Thorne) with some help (later) from Laurent Giles (Hence Westerly's excellence with twin keel designs)

The key design criteria include splaying the keels, having an aerofoil section to them and also a slight toe-in. Oh, and making the keels strong (cast iron works well) and bolting them firmly to reinforced & faired in hull sections. I suspect that the Dutch don't use twin keels much because they are a recent UK invention (from 1920's only) and they have been dealing with shallow waters for centuries with lee boards, flat botttoms & centerboards.

 

[Zagato]

Wossa "leeboard" Searush?

 

[Ubergeekian]

Wossa "leeboard" Searush?

 

[Zagato]

Yikes - you could do some serious dredging with that thing!

 

[Searush]

Yikes - you could do some serious dredging with that thing!

Think Dutch Botters or Thames barge, Humber flats, Severn Trow or Norfolk Wherry etc. All flat bottomed & designed to take the ground to load/ off load cargoes at places with no harbour. Big lee boards either side (you use the leward one when reaching) that can be lifted when you take the ground. Yes the ones in the pic are big, buut the boat they are on is big too. Sometimes get them on small dinghies too (avoids having a leaky centreboard box).

 

[alan_d]

PS;- why has the spell checker questioned every word I have just typed?!

Handy hint: make sure it is set to English rather than, say, Polish or Sanskrit.

 

[Zagato]

I think Zagato is being modest BTW, Chichester is well marked and anyone who knows enough to choose a Folksong should do OK.

There are two or three Folkboats in EYH, and we don't see them neaped or canted over too often in the approach channel.

So long as you keep off a leeshore or windward side of a bank(mud or sand, it can be like rock), or put out a kedge if there's any chance of a wind shift, it's often the best chance of a quiet few hours to catch up on sleep.

[/QUOTE]

Not wanting to hijack the thread but would any anchor do or is a kedge the kiddie to have. I do have a kedge but two 25Ib CQR anchors came with my boat, are these suitable for Chichester Harbour and the Solent area (the boat was only ever sailed around the Hollyhead area!). Are the estuary banks in Chichester Harbour hard or muddy? Can you get a tender out away from the boat if the worse happens.

Any other tips! You'd think there would be a decent bit of kit available on the market that displays any estuary in detail so you wouldn't run aground - surely they have come up with a depth gauge that gives you a picture of the estuary bottom - it would be a VERY good investment if they did one for me Thanks

 

[Seajet]

Zagato,

You're after your money's worth out of that post, how many questions ?!!!

In no particular order; a chart, in this case 'Chichester & Langstone Harbours', coupled with Mk 1 eyeball - one of THE most useful things on a boat is binoculars, ideally waterproof with a compass built in, 7 X 50 ( any stronger is too hard to keep steady ),around £90-100.

The compass function is really handy, allows taking a fix from objects as one identifiies them at a distance.

Of course chart plotters are great, giving a 'Wacky Races' god's eye view of the boat with the zoomable surroundings clear; I'm still amazed when I zoom in and it actually shows the finger pontoon I'm next to, the next ones will presumably allow the user to look up and wave !

There are forward looking depth sounders, I've not used one myself, but they require a very large transducer, and are around £700.

A lot of people compromise with 'fish finder' sounders, which give a display of the bottom. Beware the type of transducer required ( I don't have any holes in the bottom of my boat, have a chemical loo, the sink pumps out via a dedicated pump, engine is an outboard, 2 depth sonders - saloon & cockpit - have internal transducers ).

The snag with fish finders as I see it is they show right below and where you've been, not much in front.

For you with a big fixed keel ( whose daft idea was that ?! It'll never catch on... ) a depth sounder with shallow and deep alarms, 'anchor watch' would be very well worth having; set the shallow alarm to warn if getting near aground, deep alarm to warn if getting deep for the amount of rope you have out - or to say you're dragging /drifting !

Of course fancy and normal depth sounders can be used to navigate using depth contours on the chart compared to course & distance run, but only where the seabed suits.

I was once in a position with no electrics or main compass in fog, thought about trying to find Chichester entrance with a spanner on the end of a measured line, but decided it was too risky; the contours just don't show the channel when offshore.

Some places like off mainland side Western Solent are very handy for this, one can go quite easily buoy to buoy - so it's used for YM exams.

A kedge is really any anchor light enough to be handled around, such as taking out in a dinghy to lay out, often to prevent a boat aground being driven further ashore as the tide returns, otr to lay out conected to the masthead to keep a boat heeled the safe dirction - or to heel and reduce draft in trying to get her off the seabed.

Never tow a dinghy of any kind except for ultra short trips, huge drag, and if remotely windy or lumpy will be threatening to part the painter and /or turn over.

A good inflatable is worth it's weight in gold, I suspect like me you won't be overflowing with space, in which case definitely go for a 'round tail' type, they stow much smaller and are a bit lighter - you can get brackets for small outboards with almost all makes.

Beware 12v 'high speed inflators' they use a lot of current and must be attached to the battery direct not the electrics- I was on a boat which virtually caught fire doing that;the owner was supposedly a professional electrics & electronics type...

Around Chichester, the bottom is soft mud, BUT at the entrance, from East Head to just opposite HISC and the entrance channel, the banks are VERY hard shingle, might as well be rock - avoid !

Also treat the sandbanks to either side of the entrance, out to and beyond the beacon, with respect, they're very hard sand, and more to the point have surf and / or significant waves on even quite calm days.

No problem at all if one doesn't try to be a smart-arse ! Top Tip, as there are so many boats in the harbour, it's quite common to see some misguided soul set off across the shallows - they look like a large expanse of inviting open water when the tide is up - don't follow people thinking they know better !

Any 'plough' type anchor, such as your CQR, should be fine in the soft mud one would choose to anchor in, at least as important is putting out the correct amount of chain or warp - especially with rope, one cannot often put out the prescribed 6 X max' depth, as the swinging circle can be large, risking either hitting other boats or swinging aground as tide turns or at slack / slow water if the wind changes.

I carry a large folding grapnel as a kedge for the above and moreso for 2 reason; if things go pear shaped and I'm on or near rocks, where I wouldn't choose to be, the grapnel has a chance of penetrating weed and holding on a pointy seabed ( temporarily as it relies on a pivot pin ).

More useful, I lower it on a seperate line down the main anchor warp about half-depth as an 'angel'; this gives a lot more horizontal pull on the main 'bower' anchor, which all anchors like.

This allows using less warp in calm wather, or improves holding on a long warp in bad weather.

In Chichester, the W side of Emsworth Channel is a nice spot to anchor, not much passing traffic especially at night, and sheltered usually; just take swingng as the tide turns into account.

When anchoring by the edge of a channel, also bear in mind the night breeze; in daytime the sea-breeze often blows onto a shore ( especialy beaches, Hayling foreshore gets this a great deal ) as hot air from the land rises, and cold air from the sea rushes in to replace it.

At night this reverses, the breeze often blows off the land; so if anchoring before dusk, a breeze which was blowing you clear of the shore can often reverse ! Not usually strongly though.

Beware too that if taking a bee line ( rhumb line ) from the Southsea Dolphin passage* to Chichester beacon, this can put you over pretty shallow patches off Hayling foreshore, best to keep off shore a good 1/2 mile + of that line, more to start with as the sands vary year to year.

* In case you haven't heard of it, and it is stupidly badly marked on charts with a very long list of victims, there is a Submarine Barrier consisting of huge concrete blocks, extending from Southsea shore to Horse Sand Fort, then a gap for the shipping channel to No Mans Land Fort, where the blocks continue again to the Isle of Wight shore.

The blocks are visible at low water near Southsea beach, while near Horse Sand Fort with a decent bit of tide you'd probably get over them, but I certainly wouldn't try it !!!

The blocks are marked by occasional vertical yellow posts, and there are 2 small boat passages through.

One is fairly close to Southsea beach, marked by red & green posts. It's quite narrow and close in, not much point to a boat going to & from Solent & Chichester (and the shoals off Langstone Harbour, the West Winner, would be en route ).

Another much more useful passage is known as 'The Dolphin', maked by a concrete 3 -legged structure which looks like an H with the top bits off from a distance.

There's a post to the shore side, one makes a point of going beween structure & post; the Dolphin structure has a light.

There is a wreck marker post about 1/4 mile NE of the Dolphin.

This gap is on the direct route from Chichester to the Solent; it voids having to use the deep water channel between the forts, which can get surprisingly rough and is a bit of a large vague area when fast ships are around.

If going through the Dolphin passage, beware heading West that Portsmouth entrance channel is close ahead; it's narrow here, so a case of sprinting across when no ships are about. Listening to VHF channel 11 - Queens harbour Naster, 'QHM' is a very good way of working out if ships are coming soon, they move fast, especially the catamarans.

If you hear a fast cat or anything 'request swashway' theyre taking the channel through the shallows ( Hamilton Bank )to the W of Portsmouth entrance.

Hope you haven't fallen asleep and that's some use...

 

[Zagato]

Thanks Seajet, very useful, I am taking notes! If you see somebody with lots of note books barging into your Yacht Club next year that will be me as I definitely need to buy you a drink in exchange for some local knowledge and private tuition

Wonder if you can fit stabilisers onto a long keel, my daughter has just finished with hers