Bilge keel less than 30ft.

[John_Silver]

Would make an interesting study in design evolution (post #60).. My old Hunter Ranger 245 was around before the switch to digital photography (mostly). Only have a few pics of her afloat. Transom shape and chines visible.



Woolverstone (Orwell)



Cobbs Quay (Poole)



St Peter Port. Up the shallow end, courtesy of sub 1m draft twin fins.



EDIT Antifoul (and rust removal) time. Around 5 years old. Shortly before sale. Not pretty, but keel bulbs show better than on the 'nicely faired & painted' shots.

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[Egret]

John Silver Said: - Would make an interesting study in design evolution (post #60 & #61). -

The Horizon 26 being broken up is the original Horizon with narrow twin fins, so no problem with them for strength, but really needs 3 heavy people on the weather rail in a blow - or a reef or two - plenty of sail for light airs though - like the racing Delta it was developed from, but with more headroom, neat toilet compartment and open plan layout giving feeling of space but realistically only sleeping accommodation for 3 adults, maybe with one or two children, - but it does that very well - and the horseshoe shaped seating around the table seats 6 very well - Focussed on what it is most likely actually going to be used for.

- The 27 was a development with more weight in the keels ( like Pandora keels?) reducing need to sit on the rail and an extra foot of length at the rear to take the weight and give a better water flow under with crew just in the cockpit - The Ranger then with more space inside so the forward and aft berths are more useable and a shape with chines not unlike the very latest yacht designs - or the barge yachts!

These Horizons - and the 23 - were big little boats - Sonatas/Deltas with standing headroom and toilet compartment - whereas the 29-31 ft Moodys and Westerlys were more like little big boats maybe - more genuine 5-6 berth accommodation - can stand between the bunks in the fore cabin - with the Sadlers in between, Lots of choice in the 25-31 ft range though.

 

[John_Silver]

John Silver Said - Would make an interesting study in design evolution (post #60 & #61). -

The Horizon 26 being broken up is the original Horizon with narrow twin fins, so no problem with them for strength, but really needs 3 heavy people on the weather rail in a blow - like the racing Delta it was developed from but with more headroom, neat toilet compartment and open plan layout giving feeling of space but realistically only accommodation for 3 adults.

- The 27 was a development with more weight in the keels ( like Pandora keels?) reducing need to sit on the rail and an extra foot of length at the rear to take the weight and give a better water flow under with crew just in the cockpit - The Ranger then with more space inside and a shape with chines not unlike the very latest yacht designs - or the barge yachts !

These Horizons were big little boats - Sonatas with standing headroom and toilet compartment - whereas the 29-31 ft Moodys and Westerlys were more like little big boats maybe - more genuine 5-6 berth accommodation - with the Sadlers in between, Lots of choice in the 25-31 ft range though.

Can't vouch for the Ranger 265, but the Ranger 245 had a 39% ballast ratio. However, with a 0.95m draft, that didn't result in as much righting moment as one might expect. Which is where the chine came in (as well as providing a surprisingly large quarter berth/ cockpit locker). Really she was a force 4 boat. Below that, a relatively modest rig (15ish SA/D I seem to remember) meant she was hard to get going. Unless the Code 0 (in today speak) could be deployed. Much over F4 it was hard to carry enough canvas for the likely sea state. She still took me on my first North Sea crossing (when based on the Orwell) and over to 'discover' the Channel Islands (once we moved to Poole). A forgiving girl to learn the cruising ropes from!

Agree she was more Big Little Boat than Little Big Boat. Especially when compared to Moodys/Westerlies 5 feet (20%) longer & with around 50% greater displacement. (Ranger 245 2.3t displacement v Moody 30 3.6t). Amazing how much difference a couple of feet makes, in the 25-35' segment!

 

[Refueler]

Time for s new comparison test to see whether a British Hunter takes longer to break up with a grab than a Legend Hunter. Place your bets now. My money would be on the Legend.

As it happens I was down at the club earlier and there is a Legend on the hard next to 2 British Hunters. The Legend looks a pretty substantial boat with its wing keel. Echoes of another thread one of the Hunters is the earlier style with a scoop stern and the other is the later one with a chined transom and fuller hull lines, plus the better shaped bulbed "twin fin" keels and balanced rudder. Good examples illustrating how much David Thomas was ahead of his time.

If it is nice tomorrow I might pop down and take some photos.

I have two close friends - one was actually a buiness partner of mine .... BOTH got shot of the 36ft Legends as quick as they could ....

Trouble was - no-one wanted to buy and took ages (ie Mike took 3 years and substantial loss on price to sell).

I was with Mike on my boat in a marina topping up diesel .... a NEW Legend came in with delivery guys .... Mike was interested as it was same model he was waiting for ....
The delivery guys hit the sugar scoop on the opposite pontoon lining her up to berth.
The scoop joint opened up and flooded ...

Boat was then lifted out and repairs made.

I quietly made enquiries about it ... the scoop was literally barely resined on the joint ... relying mostly on the striker fitted round it ..

I can tell you about Mike's in particular and I know the other guys suffered similar ... after a couple of years - the cockpit locker lids and openings warped as they were thin ... in fact Mike's did not close flush anymore ...
The cabin fittings were cheap and nasty ... beautiful boats for faimlys / wife - but nothing built to last.

I checked his hull when he was trying to sell ... I would say with hand on heart that the US designed Legend would lose every construction comparison with the Brit Hunter ... its an Intra-Costal boat - not a UK waters boat ...

 

[Tranona]

Still think the grab is likely to take longer to break up a 27' Legend than a 27' Hunter. That is the proposed test - responding to the "look how tough the Hunters are". Sure the keels stayed in place but the rest of it just fell apart easily. TBH most boats of that size and type would do the same.

 

[Refueler]

Still think the grab is likely to take longer to break up a 27' Legend than a 27' Hunter. That is the proposed test - responding to the "look how tough the Hunters are". Sure the keels stayed in place but the rest of it just fell apart easily. TBH most boats of that size and type would do the same.

Its an impossible to solve situation ... and we can argue it out till end of time ...

I disagree with you as the Hunter is the post 70's construction form ... built to serve UK waters ....

Its actually funny as I joke with people when they ask why I don't have a boat of today instead of the older 70's / 80's ones I have ... and I have a simple answer ... if my SR25 of 1973 hit a boat of todays build - I know which boat I'd prefer to be on .. and it is not the modern one ...
same with my 38ft 1983 boat ...

 

[doug748]

Can't vouch for the Ranger 265, but the Ranger 245 had a 39% ballast ratio. However, with a 0.95m draft, that didn't result in as much righting moment as one might expect. Which is where the chine came in (as well as providing a surprisingly large quarter berth/ cockpit locker). Really she was a force 4 boat. Below that, a relatively modest rig (15ish SA/D I seem to remember) meant she was hard to get going. Unless the Code 0 (in today speak) could be deployed. Much over F4 it was hard to carry enough canvas for the likely sea state. She still took me on my first North Sea crossing (when based on the Orwell) and over to 'discover' the Channel Islands (once we moved to Poole). A forgiving girl to learn the cruising ropes from!

Agree she was more Big Little Boat than Little Big Boat. Especially when compared to Moodys/Westerlies 5 feet (20%) longer & with around 50% greater displacement. (Ranger 245 2.3t displacement v Moody 30 3.6t). Amazing how much difference a couple of feet makes, in the 25-35' segment!

Must say you did impressive stuff with that boat.

There are a whole slew of similar designs up to about 30 feet, with quarter cabins and heads and spacious open plan cabins with galley and even chart tables. As you say, big accommodation but the dumpy waterline comes at a price as you move offshore.

Interesting to note (following on from the boat value thread) that a number of quite late Hunter 27's, Feelings, Springs etc are coming up around the 5 - 7k mark.

.

.

 

[John_Silver]

Must say you did impressive stuff with that boat.

“Ignorance is bliss”

 

[Gixer]

responding to the "look how tough the Hunters are". Sure the keels stayed in place but the rest of it just fell apart easily. TBH most boats of that size and type would do the same.

And that was in response to the post about keel strength.

 

[Egret]

I was impressed with how those keels and hull performed in the Boatbreakers video - solid glass hull so no worry about delamination of sandwich. Surveyor liked it for that reason - he said I should be wary of sandwich hulls approaching 50 years old.

 

[John_Silver]

............The Ranger then with more space inside so the forward and aft berths are more useable and a shape with chines not unlike the very latest yacht designs - or the barge yachts!.......

Always think that the coolest David Thomas design (I know he drew faster/sexier) was the Red Fox. In its various iterations. For the blend of ancient (lifting daggerboards/lee boards plus chines - perhaps inspired by barge yachts?) with an ahead-of-its-time modern hull shape. To create a genuinely shoal draft (trailer home for the winter) pocket cruiser with space and pace belying her size. And With an active Red Fox Owners Association , by the looks of things. This example seen, in her element, on Emsworth Quay.



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[Tranona]

And that was in response to the post about keel strength.

Again I am pretty sure most bilge keel boats would survive that. Not really a big test dropping a couple of feet 3 or 4 times. think how many times such boats drop onto the bottom on drying moorings or lifting with the tide after drying on hard sand. I remember in my early days running aground on the sand in Poole harbour on a falling spring tide in my Seawych. The half hour of lifting off was a long series of shudders and bangs until there was enough clear water to escape. No damage to anything except my pride.

 

[Egret]

It's the sign that most of the bilge keelers designed in the 60's to 80's got it right - couldn't and wouldn't have anticipated so many still going strong after 50 or 60 years - 20.000-44,000 groundings depending on how old and whether they stay afloat in winter - even many of the Centaurs which had problems have been repaired/strengthened and are still afloat.

If boats only lasted 10-15 years there would still be a thriving UK boat building industry.

 

[seeSimon]

Would make an interesting study in design evolution (post #60).. My old Hunter Ranger 245 was around before the switch to digital photography (mostly). Only have a few pics of her afloat. Transom shape and chines visible.

View attachment 206145

Woolverstone (Orwell)


EDIT Antifoul (and rust removal) time. Around 5 years old. Shortly before sale. Not pretty, but keel bulbs show better than on the 'nicely faired & painted' shots.

​

One of these for sale in my winter yard. "£11k ish I think?