Bigger and older or smaller and newer?

[Spyros]

Well, after seeing a few boats and not liking the condition at all I have run into 2 boats that are not very far regarding money and are in very good condition.

One is a Beneteau Antares 12 of 2008 with shafts and D6 370 with 550 hours and the other one is a 2000 Fairline Squadron 52 and TAMD122P-EDC with 750 hours. I know, totally different non comparable boats, was initially looking into 40-45 max but then this 52 came along and am afraid of being redundant.

Apart from the extra service, birthing and maintenance costs what worries me is that the Fairline is an 8 years older boat, not common rail and am thinking of whatever problems this may bring.

What is your opinion for the Fairline and TAMD122P EDC engines and which route would you go? Older and bigger with or newer and smaller? The boat is going to be used mainly by my family of 3.

 

[Bandit]

Spyros
you dontive much information away.
will this be your first boat or what is your history / experience?
What cruising area are you intending.

For a first boat both are quite large especially the 52.

If you make an offer on either make it subject to you having a full vessel survey plus get a Volvo Penta Dealer or an engineer very experienced on these engines to to do an engine room inspection and a seatrial plus survey out of the water (At your expense) plus having all service and repair history made available to you.

The 122 is a discontinued engine but not a bad unit if well cared for the D6 is a good unit if well cared for and still in production inspect coolers very carefully.

 

[Momac]

2000 Fairline Squadron 52 and TAMD122P-EDC with 750 hours.

Hardly run in .

 

[kashurst]

If there is mainly just the three of you I would go for the smaller boat.
the reason is that we had a 15m boat and in the end it took a lot of spontaneity away as over-nighting often required booking ahead, that combined with weather patterns just became annoying. With a 12m we could turn up anywhere and get squeezed in even in the height of summer. The 12m boat we have now can do most things the 15m could do and do it a lot cheaper.

A 15m boat also takes quite a lot more cleaning, polishing and general maintenance too, so if its just you doing it make sure you have the time available.

As to which boat would be the most reliable - hard to say, our first boat was 30 years old when we bought it and apart from a few minor electrical niggles was trouble free. The worst was the newest at 7 years old when we bought it. I think a great deal depends upon maintenance and careful ownership.

 

[Spyros]

I have a 33 hard top rib at the moment and have had experience with 42, 45, 50, 55 foot sailing yachts that I chartered. Not any experience from big motor yachts.
The boat is going to be used mostly as a house and base in Northern Aegean, about 1 1/2 from my place and I was considering if going for the Fairline to also rent/charter it so it will be like an investment, and use it during Friday-Sunday through the summer and 2 weeks during August.

Spyros
you dontive much information away.
will this be your first boat or what is your history / experience?
What cruising area are you intending.

For a first boat both are quite large especially the 52.

If you make an offer on either make it subject to you having a full vessel survey plus get a Volvo Penta Dealer or an engineer very experienced on these engines to to do an engine room inspection and a seatrial plus survey out of the water (At your expense) plus having all service and repair history made available to you.

The 122 is a discontinued engine but not a bad unit if well cared for the D6 is a good unit if well cared for and still in production inspect coolers very carefully.

 

[Hardmy]

Hi Spyros, welcome to the forum!

Like you my boating playground is in Greece, at the moment we're based in Kalamata.

I found myself in the same situation a couple of years ago. I went the older and bigger route, but am facing quite high yearly maintenance costs which add together to some lack of maintenance from the previous owner. However, never did we regret to choose the bigger boat. Family and friends love to come along and a 3rd cabin prooved to be very handy.

750 hours in 18 years is not much, but if you have some evidence that services have always been carried out? Before starting with oil analysis, etc. it's much more useful to invest in two beers and drink them with the mechanic who looked after the boat. You'll learn certainly more than any survey.

Re your plans of renting out. You are certainly familiar with the itricacies of greek bureaucracy. Another aspect is, I personally just don't want to remove my personal stuff before each charter and I'm not keen to give the keys of the boat to a "stranger". Then comes the charter market for such type of boat of such age. As an example, for the whole Peloponnese there is only one MY, a 50-ish Ferretti based in Pylos and operating for the Navarino resort. Could be of course, that the market is different in the N-Aegean? Will you be based on an island or the mainland?

Regards, Hardmy

 

[Spyros]

Hi Hardmy!
I am glad you are enjoying your time in Greece. You should also visit central and northern aegean. Totally different images as the Ionian is very much influenced by the Spanish and Italians. Here is a map with the area I will be moored and move around:



Yes I know, Greek bureaucracy is a bitch, believe me. Every day you hear horror stories with ship owners and the legislation changes every year, putting more taxes and problems. Just to give you an example, rental yachts which are company owned have to make at least 105 charter days in 3 years, which then they cross reference. If you don't, they take your license.
Also for anything you own they suppose that you make a specific amount of money to keep it (houses, cars, boats etc). If your income is less than the amount they say then you have to pay taxes for the difference!!! For example for a 52 foot yacht less than 5 years old they guess that you spend JUST for it 26000 euro. Now add to this the amounts they put for basic things like a house and a car. Lets say it is 50000 euro total. If your income is 25000 euro then you have to pay income taxes for the rest 25000 euro!! How is that?
Yes, I have thought of the extra costs involved and am ready to do many things by myself, but still big costs like marinas etc you cannot avoid. How much are you looking at per year in Greece?
For the 40 footer I was not thinking of renting but for the 52 it crossed my mind in order to keep costs down and make something out of it.
Generally speaking, the Squadron is actually a 2 cabin boat It has a bunker for the staff supposedly. The Flyer is also a 2 cabin boat. Again I am not comparing the two boats as I know they have nothing to do with each other but I do not want to take over a boat I will struggle to sell afterwards and wish I had gone for the 40 (which is actually a 43)

Hi Spyros, welcome to the forum!

Like you my boating playground is in Greece, at the moment we're based in Kalamata.

I found myself in the same situation a couple of years ago. I went the older and bigger route, but am facing quite high yearly maintenance costs which add together to some lack of maintenance from the previous owner. However, never did we regret to choose the bigger boat. Family and friends love to come along and a 3rd cabin prooved to be very handy.

750 hours in 18 years is not much, but if you have some evidence that services have always been carried out? Before starting with oil analysis, etc. it's much more useful to invest in two beers and drink them with the mechanic who looked after the boat. You'll learn certainly more than any survey.

Re your plans of renting out. You are certainly familiar with the itricacies of greek bureaucracy. Another aspect is, I personally just don't want to remove my personal stuff before each charter and I'm not keen to give the keys of the boat to a "stranger". Then comes the charter market for such type of boat of such age. As an example, for the whole Peloponnese there is only one MY, a 50-ish Ferretti based in Pylos and operating for the Navarino resort. Could be of course, that the market is different in the N-Aegean? Will you be based on an island or the mainland?

Regards, Hardmy

 

[rubberduck]

If well looked after the Fairline, you can never have too much space.

 

[Portofino]

Yes I know, Greek bureaucracy is a bitch, believe me. Every day you hear horror stories with ship owners and the legislation changes every year, putting more taxes and problems. Just to give you an example, rental yachts which are company owned have to make at least 105 charter days in 3 years, which then they cross reference. If you don't, they take your license.
Also for anything you own they suppose that you make a specific amount of money to keep it (houses, cars, boats etc). If your income is less than the amount they say then you have to pay taxes for the difference!!! For example for a 52 foot yacht less than 5 years old they guess that you spend JUST for it 26000 euro. Now add to this the amounts they put for basic things like a house and a car. Lets say it is 50000 euro total. If your income is 25000 euro then you have to pay income taxes for the rest 25000 euro!! How is that?
43)

It’s called “ undeclared income “
Not new .

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wo...espread-tax-evasion-amongst-yacht-owners.html

I was on the car meet in Cortina when Guardia Finanza did the raid it’s was a Ferrari owner club meet .
Since then they ( Italian F car owners ) has stopped coming our to play theses days .
Btw I was a guest not from Italy travelling with a U.K. car and passport .

What advise would you suggest your GOV does to tackle under declared income ?
Surley not continue to borrow € from Berlin ?

Back to boats
I thought you were having a look at XL / Itama ?

 

[Spyros]

Hey Porto,

well in order for an economy to survive black money MUST go round freely. You cannot underpay and overtax at the same time. And since no money is in the market and therefore no income to pay taxes, you cannot tax even more! What they say here is that they are sure that we cheat and tax evade so they ask for more money.
In the US, you pay whatever you declare and the yearly statement is so easy to make even a small child can make it. Even if you have tax return, the next few days the amount is in your account. BUT if they ask for an audit and catch you cheating, you go to jail! And this system is from Lincoln days. In Greece they change the tax system 2-3 times a year just not to get bored!

Yes I was looking for one and saw 2 here in Greece. One was a 2006 Forty in the worst condition you can imagine and he was asking for 240.000 :ambivalence::nightmare:
The other one was a 2007 Forty in very medium condition, spider cracks on the bow (typical for Itama Forty), an engine room not well kept, a very yellowish discoloration of the engines which put me into overheating thoughts, a screwed up grounding system fully oxidized which caused many problems with electrolysis, especially at the hydraulic pasarele which was remedied with an electrical cathodic protection system which of course did nothing, a screwed up hydraulic system of the paserele again, which was fixed by sponge bob squarepants AND last but not least what mostly put me off was a redone gelcoat at the bow and sides which was off tone and yellowish, and all the factory anti skid scrubbed and replaced with something else! :encouragement:



Also the day I visited it was raining and the engine room was leaking from everywhere, it was actually flooded! You can see it in the last picture. And for this lovely boat he was asking 220.000.

It’s called “ undeclared income “
Not new .

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wo...espread-tax-evasion-amongst-yacht-owners.html

I was on the car meet in Cortina when Guardia Finanza did the raid it’s was a Ferrari owner club meet .
Since then they ( Italian F car owners ) has stopped coming our to play theses days .
Btw I was a guest not from Italy travelling with a U.K. car and passport .

What advise would you suggest your GOV does to tackle under declared income ?
Surley not continue to borrow € from Berlin ?

Back to boats
I thought you were having a look at XL / Itama ?

 

[Portofino]

The Amarti modals pre 2004/5 ish are the ones to get .When the old man was on site .
None of this Ferretti corporate parts bin approach or moving production line malarkey.Yes that passerelle instal is shocking, it’s just a matter of time before the control box gets flooded .Who ever signed that off at Ferretti s Forli plant in the N Adriatic wants there head testing

You need to look at one built in Rome any before 2004/2005 .

I think everyone interested in Itama knows that and the XL factory ( original factory site on the river Taber ) are doing a huge refurb trade are other Italian yards of the original modals in preference to tackling a new build or acquiring a newer Ferretti era modal .

Which means the values are going one way as there is only a limeted supply .

Originals have pincraft Passerelle s as an example of one ofthe component qualities in an Amarti boat .

http://www.pin-craft.it

 

[Spyros]

Yes, I know. Quality is totally different but the Forty before 2006 is a single cabin so too small.
You should see the alterations first hand! Unbelievable...
I also saw an XL marine but design is far inferior. Also I am skeptical about Yanmars.

Any comments on the Beneteau and the Squadron? Anyone that has tried them first hand?

The Amarti modals pre 2004/5 ish are the ones to get .When the old man was on site .
None of this Ferretti corporate parts bin approach or moving production line malarkey.Yes that passerelle instal is shocking, it’s just a matter of time before the control box gets flooded .Who ever signed that off at Ferretti s Forli plant in the N Adriatic wants there head testing

You need to look at one built in Rome any before 2004/2005 .

I think everyone interested in Itama knows that and the XL factory ( original factory site on the river Taber ) are doing a huge refurb trade are other Italian yards of the original modals in preference to tackling a new build or acquiring a newer Ferretti era modal .

Which means the values are going one way as there is only a limeted supply .

Originals have pincraft Passerelle s as an example of one ofthe component qualities in an Amarti boat .

http://www.pin-craft.it